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Author Topic: Stainless Steel vs Dwarven Steel...  (Read 1785 times)

_DivideByZero_

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Stainless Steel vs Dwarven Steel...
« on: June 22, 2011, 08:08:43 pm »

I cannot figure out why in a 20v20 full plate-mail fight-to-the-death dwarves wearing this...
Code: [Select]
[INORGANIC:STEEL_STAINLESS] questionably superior to steel because the stats show mostly otherwise, but still good for ornamental purposes
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:perfect steel]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten perfect steel]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:boiling perfect steel]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:0:7:1]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:40]
[SPEC_HEAT:500]
[MELTING_POINT:12718]
[BOILING_POINT:14968]
[ITEMS_WEAPON][ITEMS_WEAPON_RANGED][ITEMS_AMMO][ITEMS_DIGGER][ITEMS_ARMOR]
[SOLID_DENSITY:7850]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:6980]
[MOLAR_MASS:55845]
[IMPACT_YIELD:1820000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:3010000] not sure how this will effect gameplay, I might make this one the same as regular steel
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:943] no data
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:1820000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:3010000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:943] no data, used youngs modulus of 193
[TENSILE_YIELD:520000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:860000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:290] 193
[TORSION_YIELD:520000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:860000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:290]
[SHEAR_YIELD:520000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:860000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:742] no data, used 200
[BENDING_YIELD:520000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:860000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:290]
[MAX_EDGE:12000]
[ITEMS_HARD]
[ITEMS_METAL]
[ITEMS_BARRED]
[ITEMS_SCALED]
[REACTION_CLASS:GUNBARREL]
...defeat dwarves wearing this...
Code: [Select]
[INORGANIC:STEEL_CRUCIBLE] about as strong as modern steel
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:dwarven steel]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten dwarven steel]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:boiling dwarven steel]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:0:7:1]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:10]
[SPEC_HEAT:500]
[MELTING_POINT:12718]
[BOILING_POINT:14968]
[ITEMS_WEAPON][ITEMS_WEAPON_RANGED][ITEMS_AMMO][ITEMS_DIGGER][ITEMS_ARMOR][ITEMS_ANVIL]
[SOLID_DENSITY:7850]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:6980]
[MOLAR_MASS:55845]
[IMPACT_YIELD:2415000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:2660000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:940]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:2415000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:2660000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:940] 160
[TENSILE_YIELD:690000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:760000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:225] 200
[TORSION_YIELD:690000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:760000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:215]
[SHEAR_YIELD:690000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:760000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:215] no data, used 200
[BENDING_YIELD:690000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:760000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:215]
[MAX_EDGE:11000]
[ITEMS_HARD]
[ITEMS_METAL]
[ITEMS_BARRED]
[ITEMS_SCALED]
[REACTION_CLASS:GUNBARREL]
...because Perfect Steel (stainless steel with a fancier name) has inferior values for material strengths EXCEPT compressive and impact fracture. The issue here is that the side with stainless steel sustains absolutely no casualties while the side with regular dwarven steel is completely annihilated. Do two values really make this big of a difference?

Anyway, I'd like some imput on whether I should nerf stainless steel, or leave it as it is. I was intending for stainless steel to be ornamental, but I realized it has some interesting game-play mechanics since its yield values are lower. Perhaps steel is more resilient when facing a superior metal? What about offense vs. inferior metals?

Thoughts?
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Alem

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Re: Stainless Steel vs Dwarven Steel...
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 08:59:05 pm »

From what i am seeing, the combat relevant stats are:

Stainless: Impact yield 1,820,000. Fracture, 3,010,000. Shear yield 520,000. Fracture 860,00
Crucible:  impact yield 2,415,000. fracture 2,660,000. Shear yield 690,000. Fracture 760,000

From what I have found, although the strains do have a significent impact when the yield is a large range, the fracture point is actually the most important one. Your Crucible in theory should shrug off lesser blows far more often than Stainless, but will fail outright to a blow far sooner than Stainless, and that is where (i beleive anyway, I could be wrong) the major damage comes into play.

Also what weapons you are using are a big factor here as well. As far as your second question, I would hypothesize that Crucible would endure lesser weaponry better than Stainless, but Stainless will handle superior weapon better because the fracture points vs edged (shear) and blunt (impact, i think anyway, that or compressive which are the same), are much higher.
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_DivideByZero_

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Re: Stainless Steel vs Dwarven Steel...
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 11:32:30 pm »

Ah.

So I've basically concluded that a high fracture point means that the material has a lesser chance of being penetrated.

So Stainless Steel is clearly superior for armor if your targets are boasting steel or better weapons. (I still need a steampunkish entity to add those to. Automatons? I can give them castes powered by steam with immense strength and a weak point, heavily armored ones made of titanium alloys, ones made of different metals, etc.), however I am yet to conduct science to compare low-grade metals such as copper against different types of steel.

I should start some !!science!!. Will post later in this thread, after I finish this watermelon.

Edit:

Round 1

Currently Testing:
5 Stainless vs 50 Copper

All dwarves are grand master swordsdwarves equipped with one breastplate, one pair of greaves, one mail shirt, one helm, a pair of gauntlets, and a pair of high-boots.

Results:

Victor: Stainless Steel

Survivors: 5

Notes:
-There happen to be severed teeth everywhere. From my experience, this is normal.
-The battle was somewhat drawn out, with the Stainless 5 being immediately swarmed by the copper wielders. Eventually, the Stainless 5 won with zero casualties.
-All 5 survivors had wounded and/or fractured right arms.
-One survivor was faint.
-Death mainly occurred through bleeding, with occasional brainshots. The stainless steel swords penetrated the copper armor with ease.

Conclusion:
-Stainless steel is far superior to copper.
-Copper short-swords have a tendency to cause bruising and fractures through stainless steel armor.
-Stainless steel armor does not render one completely immune from copper, as one dwarf was faint at the end and had countless injuries.

Round 2

Currently Testing:
5 Dwarven vs 50 Copper

All dwarves are grand master swordsdwarves equipped with one breastplate, one pair of greaves, one mail shirt, one helm, a pair of gauntlets, and a pair of high-boots.

Results:

Victor: Copper

Survivors: 37

Notes:
-The battle was of similar length, surprisingly.
-Deaths did occur on the copper side.
-Steel equipped dwarves slowly died.
-Deaths occurred primarily through bleeding to death.
-Stabs from the copper side seemed to be considerably more effective, and always scored a wound.

Conclusion:
-Copper isn't completely useless against crucible steel (stronger than normal human forged steel)
-Steel's higher yield point makes a much smaller difference than stainless steel's higher fracture point.
-Thus, higher fracture point results in increased defense against low-grade weapons as opposed to a higher yield point.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 11:56:15 pm by _DivideByZero_ »
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Alem

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Re: Stainless Steel vs Dwarven Steel...
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 12:48:44 am »

Hmm, that one is fascinating to learn. It makes it appear that fracture point is the only part that matters. The X factor though would be just what affect the Elasticity has, which theoretically should make a big difference. Especially on materials with a wide range between yield and fracture. Could make for some interesting custom materials to be able to manage a material A that is generally "safe" but you take more non-lethal injury in, and a material B that you take fewer injuries in general but have a higher chance of taking dangerous ones.
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_DivideByZero_

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Re: Stainless Steel vs Dwarven Steel...
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 01:02:16 am »

Round 3

Currently Testing:
5 Cobalt Steel (fictional alloy similar to steel with a fracture strength closer to but not too close to stainless steel) vs 50 Copper

All dwarves are grand master swordsdwarves equipped with one breastplate, one pair of greaves, one mail shirt, one helm, a pair of gauntlets, and a pair of high-boots.

Exception: Cobalt Steel side is equipped with stainless steel short swords instead, since cobalt steel has a nasty sharp edge that might make it a little too good.

Results:

Victor: Cobalt

Survivors: 5

Notes:
-No casualties on Team Cobalt halfway through copper massacre.
-At the end, none of the cobalt team was faint, although some had a few smashed or broken parts.
-I attribute this to wrestling.
-Stabs often caused mere bruising instead of penetrating.
-I did not observe stabbing vs stainless steel. I will have to redo that round.

Conclusion:
-Too little data, need info on copper stabbing against stainless steel.

Round 1B

Currently Testing:
5 Stainless vs 50 Copper (rematch)

All dwarves are grand master swordsdwarves equipped with one breastplate, one pair of greaves, one mail shirt, one helm, a pair of gauntlets, and a pair of high-boots.

Results:

Victor: Stainless Steel

Survivors: 5

Notes:
-All dwarves are female... good thing dwarves have no gender differences sans beards.
-Various stabs made it through to the muscle, indicating that stabs in-fact went deeper into stainless steel, but only sometimes.
-Some survivors had bones torn open... ouch. Not sure if this is from wrestling or not.

Grand Conclusion:

A higher yield strength does in-fact provide slight increased protection against weak attacks.
A higher fracture point provides increased protection from fatal blows.

Not sure about the validity of the data or the conclusion... feel free to contradict me. Anyway, it seems that stainless steel and cobalt steel are largely similar, but cobalt steel results in fewer (but still prevalent) flesh injuries. Numerous dwarves had infections on both Stainless and Cobalt teams.
Perhaps an ideal set of materials could be made for further testing.

Material 1:
Yield Strength: 500000
Fracture Strength: 500000

Material 2:
Yield Strength: 100000
Fracture Strength: 900000

I will mod those in and test those, possibly tomorrow.

EDIT:
Did some tests. in a 5v25 vs copper, yield metal managed to last longer so more coppers were wounded.
Fracture metal seemed to do a good job of blocking fatal hits, but for some reason yield metal lasted the longest. These results might be wrong though. Good luck with modding!

All dwarves on test metal side had dwarven steel longswords, all dwarves on copper side had copper short swords. Both had full plate mail.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 01:27:01 am by _DivideByZero_ »
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kerlc

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Re: Stainless Steel vs Dwarven Steel...
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 02:24:06 am »

i feel informed!
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_DivideByZero_

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Re: Stainless Steel vs Dwarven Steel...
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 02:09:43 pm »

I've modded stainless steel temporarily so that it has a really low yield, but nearly unbreakable fracture.

What I noticed was that helms were largely invincible, letting only stabs through.

But mail shirts, being non rigid, well...



It went right through.
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Vherid

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Re: Stainless Steel vs Dwarven Steel...
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 05:27:17 pm »

I've modded stainless steel temporarily so that it has a really low yield, but nearly unbreakable fracture.

What I noticed was that helms were largely invincible, letting only stabs through.

But mail shirts, being non rigid, well...



It went right through.

Well mail isn't supposed to prevent stabs.