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Author Topic: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?  (Read 5842 times)

thijser

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2011, 03:36:49 pm »

And remember that if you are going to use weapon traps then you need to use low quality weapons and mechanisms as this will cause the enemy to dodge more often. However if you are using upright weapon traps then you should use high quality mechanisms and low quality spears as this allows for more attacks (in upright weapon traps mechanism quality determines attack speed (if you have a good mechanism in the lever aswell) whereas in weapon traps the mechanism determines the hit rate).
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Lamiales

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 10:51:10 pm »

And remember that if you are going to use weapon traps then you need to use low quality weapons and mechanisms as this will cause the enemy to dodge more often. However if you are using upright weapon traps then you should use high quality mechanisms and low quality spears as this allows for more attacks (in upright weapon traps mechanism quality determines attack speed (if you have a good mechanism in the lever aswell) whereas in weapon traps the mechanism determines the hit rate).
Did anyone actually test any of this? Sounds like speculation to me. (sorry for necro)
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Kattel

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 12:29:35 am »

well ive tried alot of different combinations in my dodge trap. i use them almost exclusively for the first 2-3 years of a fort (fort defence mod).

what works best for me is low quality menacing spikes with low quality mech's. 9x9x10+ hole, 1x4 floor connected to a down stair column in middle leading into my fortress. 4 full weapon traps and im safe till i start getting flyers. station military at bottom of hole for the 'nothing bothers me' effect. had this fail only once when a white tigerman leader landed on a cat. tore my fortress a new one....
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 12:30:55 am »

And remember that if you are going to use weapon traps then you need to use low quality weapons and mechanisms as this will cause the enemy to dodge more often. However if you are using upright weapon traps then you should use high quality mechanisms and low quality spears as this allows for more attacks (in upright weapon traps mechanism quality determines attack speed (if you have a good mechanism in the lever aswell) whereas in weapon traps the mechanism determines the hit rate).
Did anyone actually test any of this? Sounds like speculation to me. (sorry for necro)

The above quote isn't completely true.

- You do want to use low quality weapons and low-quality mechanisms in the "dodge" weapon traps, because you don't actually want to injure/kill the enemy. If they don't have a shield to block with, they will probably dodge the poorly-aimed attacks.

- Upright spears/spikes placed at the bottom of a pit don't need mechanisms. Creatures just fall on them. Use high-quality weapons here.

- If you do connect upright spears/spikes to a lever or repeater to make them retract and extend, the speed is constant regardless of mechanism quality.

Poindexterity

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2011, 02:32:58 am »

-awesome pics of wicked mean trap area-
i like it.
as an improvement, id build 5, 1 tile wide bridges, connected to a single lever, so that when it's just dwarves coming and going, they wont have to walk the winding path.
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Lamiales

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2011, 05:35:47 am »

And remember that if you are going to use weapon traps then you need to use low quality weapons and mechanisms as this will cause the enemy to dodge more often.
Did anyone actually test any of this? Sounds like speculation to me. (sorry for necro)
- You do want to use low quality weapons and low-quality mechanisms in the "dodge" weapon traps, because you don't actually want to injure/kill the enemy. If they don't have a shield to block with, they will probably dodge the poorly-aimed attacks.

Ok, i did a little bit of testing myself, and my findings are as follows: Higher weaponskill produces more dodges and not less, so better quality mechanisms should produce more dodges too. However, you are right in that you may want to produce more dodges/wounding hit and this ratio is better with low weapon skill.

Conclusions:
- If you don't really care about keeping invaders alive, and need to defend effectively, use the best available equip. You get more hits and more dodges.
- If you want only dodges, I would suggest using high quality mechanisms and weapons, but harmless ones. I saw silver serrated disks mentioned somewhere and they should do fine. Training weapons should be good too.
- This also goes for your danger room: use high quality equipment and you dwarves should skill up dodge quicker! (doubt that is very practical information since the danger room is fast enough either way, but it is something you could potentially verify/falsify with testing)

The model that explains this behaviour is that the attacker first rolls for a successful attack or miss. Then the defender rolls for dodging. The dodging roll is influenced by the skill of the attacker too, but not as much as a higher skill would mean less dodging events, only the ratio changes.

Disclaimer: it was just a really short test so i could be completely wrong :D Also, i don't know what exactly causes jamming in a weapon trap; if it's never caused by misses you might want to use low quality equip.

PS: Another thing i wondered for danger room design is if confined space influences the rate of dodging. Will dwarves dodge less if they have only one sqare to dodge to?

Edit: After some more general combat testing:
- Dodge indeed increases the chance to get missed, not only to dodge.
- High dodge also increases the chance of a counterstrike per dodge/miss.
- A high weapon or fighter skill helps hitting a dodger.
- High fighter skill makes your charge a ferocious onslaught, you dont collide anymore.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 06:52:25 am by Lamiales »
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outofpractice

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2011, 08:50:07 am »

With your dodge'em trap, if you want it to be fatal, all you do is make it 10z lvls. That kills everything I've come accross. Except for enemies that landed on other enemies, but thats something that you can't control.

One thing that no one has suggested yet, is the use of retracting bridges along the trap. This gives your dwarves a larger walking area, then when an enemy shows up, retract the bridges so the path goes back to 1 tile wide path again. Makes cleaning up quicker as well.
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Nameless Archon

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2011, 09:09:10 am »

With your dodge'em trap, if you want it to be fatal, all you do is make it 10z lvls. That kills everything I've come accross. Except for enemies that landed on other enemies, but thats something that you can't control.
More can sometimes (rarely) be needed - goblins will sometimes survive with crippling injuries. 15z should be universally fatal. Typically, the additional levels are just a nice feature and not a particularly required thing.

Quote
One thing that no one has suggested yet, is the use of retracting bridges along the trap. This gives your dwarves a larger walking area, then when an enemy shows up, retract the bridges so the path goes back to 1 tile wide path again. Makes cleaning up quicker as well.
Additionally, you'll need a 3-wide path for wagons, so allowing them to cross bridges in times of peace will help keep your fortress operating smoothly. Consider creating two paths out of your fort - one 3-wide that you only open briefly to let the traders out (and the siege to kill them) and one you leave open 3-wide in peace and 1-wide (with dodge traps) in war.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2011, 09:12:53 am »

...

I just checked my massive gamelog file, and can't see an instance of a trap recording a "miss" in the combat log. The only things that were protecting the goblins from the traps were shield blocks, dodges, or the weapon deflecting off their armor. Higher quality mechanisms were blocked/dodged less, not more.

Lamiales

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2011, 10:08:36 am »

...

I just checked my massive gamelog file, and can't see an instance of a trap recording a "miss" in the combat log. The only things that were protecting the goblins from the traps were shield blocks, dodges, or the weapon deflecting off their armor. Higher quality mechanisms were blocked/dodged less, not more.

Interesting. A bit weird that they can't miss. The higher quality mechanism being dodged less would be my result too without missing blows. Low quality mechanisms it is then.
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Ninjamestari

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2011, 11:07:29 am »

Here is a dodge me trap that i use in my current fort:
Z+0
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Z-1
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Repeat the Z-1 level over 10 times to get a fatal drop and link the retractable bridges to a lever in your meeting area. My trap has a 18-level-drop and it kills everything that falls so I don't need any traps in the bottom level. I also have some real iron weapons mixed in so that enemies who don't dodge well enough will get killed by them.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 11:11:33 am by Ninjamestari »
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Mechanixm

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Re: How to build a Dodge Me! trap?
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2011, 04:34:45 pm »

With your dodge'em trap, if you want it to be fatal, all you do is make it 10z lvls. That kills everything I've come accross. Except for enemies that landed on other enemies, but thats something that you can't control.
More can sometimes (rarely) be needed - goblins will sometimes survive with crippling injuries. 15z should be universally fatal. Typically, the additional levels are just a nice feature and not a particularly required thing.

Quote
One thing that no one has suggested yet, is the use of retracting bridges along the trap. This gives your dwarves a larger walking area, then when an enemy shows up, retract the bridges so the path goes back to 1 tile wide path again. Makes cleaning up quicker as well.
Additionally, you'll need a 3-wide path for wagons, so allowing them to cross bridges in times of peace will help keep your fortress operating smoothly. Consider creating two paths out of your fort - one 3-wide that you only open briefly to let the traders out (and the siege to kill them) and one you leave open 3-wide in peace and 1-wide (with dodge traps) in war.


You currently do not need a 3tile wide hallway to accommodate traders.  They can path in to your fort just fine, right now, with 1tile wide hallways and stairs, etc.
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