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Author Topic: Farming analysis  (Read 12849 times)

Root Infinity

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Farming analysis
« on: June 27, 2011, 09:17:59 am »

OK, so I've decided to do some analysis of DF Farming. I'm going to start with underground crops only, and also only the efficiency, not any other pointers (quality, et cetera) and possibly expand if I have time/interest.

Spoiler: Background Info (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: General Calculation (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Plump helmets (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Pig tails (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Cave wheat (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Sweet pods (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Quarry bushes (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Dimple cups (click to show/hide)

CropFoodDrinkSustainNotes
Plump helmets8.4216Can be eaten raw
Pig tailsn/a21n/aCan be made into cloth
Cave wheat3.612.65.04Can be milled to flour
Sweet pods6.9(8.4)12.615.12(25.2)Can be processed to sugar or syrup
Quarry bushes24.192(29.232)n/an/aCan be pressed for oil
Dimple cupsn/an/an/aCan be turned to dye
This means that the optimum plant to grow would be sweet pods if you ignore the space for the buildings. (Even when you include the extra labour to do the milling and cooking!). When you graph these (including the space for the kitchen and such), you get this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This shows that space-wise at least, the optimum is always to just plant plump helmets for food.
For drink it is much simple (almost trivial):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In other words space-wise it is optimum for anywhere up to 200 dwarves to just produce plump helmets. Otherwise is a different matter. (Happiness/quality/other utility)
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2011, 10:08:26 am »

I'm wondering, is sweet pod syrup cooking still bugged in latest version? They get treated like liquid cookable, which means that it never get picked up unless there're no more solid cookable left to get, rather annoyingly hard to make it work, unless it's changed in latest version. I wouldn't include liquid cookables in the food calculation ( otherwise you'd have to include the booze also ) and stick to solid/powder, which don't have any issues. Feel free to ignore this comment if it's been fixed in latest version :D ( There're also the storage, ten bags to a barrel, but that's entirely another topic! )

I believe above-ground crops are all identical, outside of variance in processing and edibility. At least I haven't found any length difference among them, just value and utility.

I wouldn't bother to count seed products as cookables, since I imagine it'd use up the seeds. I believe all of the underground plants' seeds are cookable, however I'm not sure how one should count it, unless it's cavern-gathering to supplement the seed loss. Cave wheat can be cooked with cave wheat, at least I've had some stacks of roasts that's nothing but cave wheat or pod sugars.

Did you accounted for the seasonal changes to do year-around calculation? Not all underground plant are year-round plantable (oddly, above-ground are). I'm eyeing the plump helmet and pig tail being the same drink sustainability, despite pig tail only having two seasons.

Otherwise, I've no comment on the charts, they does looks fitting to me, using your parameter. I've only got disagreement with sweet pods, which's already mentioned above in liquid cooking, and find the w/ others part to be a bit redundant in charting direct plant usability.
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Sphalerite

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2011, 10:25:10 am »

I'm wondering, is sweet pod syrup cooking still bugged in latest version?

I have consistently been able to get my dwarves to cook with syrup in the latest version, and in every 31.xx version I've tried to cook syrup in.  I always make sure that the kitchens are surrounded by a stockpile that only takes liquid extract, and that all other food stockpiles in the fortress don't accept liquid extract.  My dwarves grab a solid ingredient from elsewhere in the fortress to start the cooking job, then finish it with the syrup in the extract stockpile.  I'm not convinced that the bug where dwarves won't touch liquid unless there's no solid ingredients left ever actually existed.
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2011, 10:33:34 am »

I have consistently been able to get my dwarves to cook with syrup in the latest version, and in every 31.xx version I've tried to cook syrup in.  I always make sure that the kitchens are surrounded by a stockpile that only takes liquid extract, and that all other food stockpiles in the fortress don't accept liquid extract.  My dwarves grab a solid ingredient from elsewhere in the fortress to start the cooking job, then finish it with the syrup in the extract stockpile.  I'm not convinced that the bug where dwarves won't touch liquid unless there's no solid ingredients left ever actually existed.

I've tried that often time in .18, and it still take forever for them to cook syrup ( or booze, when I'm curious ). Stockpile right next to kitchen full of syrups and booze, and solids further away, that is. However, I'm curious, do you barrels your cookables (I does all the time, just cuz so much space. OH GOD ALL THE TALLOWS. )? It's possibly because they're more inclined to stuff barrels than leave it out, and paths to them rather than liquid.
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Sphalerite

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2011, 10:36:23 am »

I have consistently been able to get my dwarves to cook with syrup in the latest version, and in every 31.xx version I've tried to cook syrup in.  I always make sure that the kitchens are surrounded by a stockpile that only takes liquid extract, and that all other food stockpiles in the fortress don't accept liquid extract.  My dwarves grab a solid ingredient from elsewhere in the fortress to start the cooking job, then finish it with the syrup in the extract stockpile.  I'm not convinced that the bug where dwarves won't touch liquid unless there's no solid ingredients left ever actually existed.

I've tried that often time in .18, and it still take forever for them to cook syrup ( or booze, when I'm curious ). Stockpile right next to kitchen full of syrups and booze, and solids further away, that is. However, I'm curious, do you barrels your cookables (I does all the time, just cuz so much space. OH GOD ALL THE TALLOWS. )? It's possibly because they're more inclined to stuff barrels than leave it out, and paths to them rather than liquid.

I only store liquids in barrels.  Meat/tallow/plants/egg/etc stockpiles have zero barrels permitted in my fortresses.  Perhaps that's what's doing it, I don't know.
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2011, 10:42:03 am »


I only store liquids in barrels.  Meat/tallow/plants/egg/etc stockpiles have zero barrels permitted in my fortresses.  Perhaps that's what's doing it, I don't know.

In default d_init, barrels are seen as a thousand step closer, same for bins and seed bagging, according to the note in there (search down to STORE_DIST_* bit ). That could do the trick if liquid isn't counted as combine item  :D

(Man, and I forget that bit was there, I remember seeing it first time I wondered why my dwarves was so happy to choke barrels full. )
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Root Infinity

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2011, 10:49:19 am »

I'm wondering, is sweet pod syrup cooking still bugged in latest version? They get treated like liquid cookable, which means that it never get picked up unless there're no more solid cookable left to get, rather annoyingly hard to make it work, unless it's changed in latest version. I wouldn't include liquid cookables in the food calculation ( otherwise you'd have to include the booze also ) and stick to solid/powder, which don't have any issues. Feel free to ignore this comment if it's been fixed in latest version :D ( There're also the storage, ten bags to a barrel, but that's entirely another topic! )
I forgot booze cooking... You would need one solid ingredient, but it's still interesting...

I wouldn't bother to count seed products as cookables, since I imagine it'd use up the seeds. I believe all of the underground plants' seeds are cookable, however I'm not sure how one should count it, unless it's cavern-gathering to supplement the seed loss. Cave wheat can be cooked with cave wheat, at least I've had some stacks of roasts that's nothing but cave wheat or pod sugars.
It does use up the seeds. However it only requires one seed per tile, and you get 5 plants, so you can potentially cook 4 seeds (which apparently I only included in the quarry bush calculations. Will fix once I have some food...)

Did you accounted for the seasonal changes to do year-around calculation? Not all underground plant are year-round plantable (oddly, above-ground are). I'm eyeing the plump helmet and pig tail being the same drink sustainability, despite pig tail only having two seasons.
No. I thought I mentioned that, but apperently I didn't. It's supposed to be only for the seasons that the respective plants grow.

Otherwise, I've no comment on the charts, they does looks fitting to me, using your parameter. I've only got disagreement with sweet pods, which's already mentioned above in liquid cooking, and find the w/ others part to be a bit redundant in charting direct plant usability.
I'm just doing my part to help add more info in the Department of Redundancy Department with my extra info.
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2011, 11:29:19 am »

Putting my 2☼ in!

Each season is 100800 ticks long

30000 ticks plants: Plump Helmets, Pig tails
3 planting per season

50000 ticks plants: Quarry Bushes, Sweet Pods, Cave Wheats
2 planting per season

4 season plants: Plump Helmets
3 season plant: Quarry Bushes
2 season plants: Pig Tails, Sweet Pods, Cave Wheats

Plump Helmets: 12 batches/year
Quarry Bushes: 6 batches/year
Pig Tails: 6 batches/year
Sweet Pods: 4 batches/year
Cave Wheats: 4 batches/year

(I think I should've used -1 batches/year in calculation, since I noticed that there're too little time over per season for them. But we'll use the number above since it's good enough approximation, and -could- be pulled off by fast farmers sitting right on the field. )

Dwarves need to drink 16 times per year, eat 8 times per year. Legendary plus planters will get crop of [5] almost always.

Eat: Dwarves = (Plot_Size*Batch*5)/8
Plump Helmet: Dwarves = Plot_Size*7.5
Quarry Bushes: Dwarves = Plot_Size*18.75 ( 5x production due to leaves )
Sweet Pod: Dwarves = Plot_Size*2.5
Cave Wheat: Dwarves = Plot_Size*2.5

Each brewing multiply the stack of plant by 5 for drinking
Drink: Dwarves = (Plot_Size*Batch*5*5)/16
Plump Helmet: Dwarves = Plot_Size*18.75
Pig Tail: Dwarves = Plot_Size*9.37
Sweet Pod: Dwarves = Plot_Size*6.25
Cave Wheat: Dwarves = Plot_Size*6.25

The above analysis don't include the -1 batch/year offset for travel to plant and harvest in common practice, and no dwarven syrup, only dwarven sugar and dwarven wheat flour. I would go into workshop space efficiency, accounting for the plot size, but I think I'd need to find a charting software and image upload site  :D
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Mushroo

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2011, 12:06:20 pm »

Very nice work! :)

For completeness I think you should include the effects of potash fertilizer (gives a nice bump to stack size) and also the possibility of cooking seeds... for example sweet pod seeds can be the solid ingredient in a syrup roast; dimple cups are typically a dye crop but their spawn can be cooked as an edible byproduct.

Quarry bushes are the favorite in my fort; they always result in a huge food surplus and the roasts are worth more than an entire caravan! The downside of course is labor; in addition to the obvious (grower, thresher, cook) you will also need an ample supply of bags, therefore a side-industry of pig tails, leather, silk, etc. The rock nut paste and oil are not particularly valuable (and require the additional labors of a miller, presser, mason, and mechanic) but are a great source of soap if your fortress happens to be tallow-free for whatever reason. :)

Farming is my favorite aspect of DF and I'm thrilled with the analysis you've done here!
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Root Infinity

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2011, 12:10:45 pm »

Putting my 2☼ in!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hm... interesting. That calculation assumes that you arn't planting anything else in that field when something can't be planted.
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2011, 12:28:28 pm »

Very nice work! :)

For completeness I think you should include the effects of potash fertilizer (gives a nice bump to stack size) and also the possibility of cooking seeds... for example sweet pod seeds can be the solid ingredient in a syrup roast; dimple cups are typically a dye crop but their spawn can be cooked as an edible byproduct.

I've seen varying quote for fertilizer on stack size, I'm VERY sure that it's still 2x like 40d, but I've seen mentions of 4x on wiki. It's pretty straightforward increase. I prefer to avoid cooking seeds cuz you can't micromanage them well, short of harvesting as byproduct of tree farming, and you're limited to 200 at a time, which makes it worse to micromanage for me. Dwarven syrup is pretty much same as brewing, in size. Multiply sweet pod booze by five and you've got the eating amount ( and boozecooking for the rest ).


Hm... interesting. That calculation assumes that you arn't planting anything else in that field when something can't be planted.

Yup, it's assuming full growable seasons, which's not too difficult with fields specially set aside for each plant, I still think it should be re-calculated with one less batch per year due to transportation time and how long it can take dwarves to go back and forth. I feels it's a bit easier to calculate exact allocations to grow per population amount with equation given and approximations up  :D

It's also fairly crude calculation, using raw data. It can be off by quite a bit, depending on fort design. I'm pretty much assuming that farmers are sitting on the fields at the start, and that you've got enough to cover the fields very quickly. Also that each plot is dedicated to a specific plant, making it easier to compare or less likely to lose plants ( I remember hearing about some players complaining of bugs of losing seeds if planted too late, never affected me, though ).
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Mushroo

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2011, 12:43:48 pm »

I've seen varying quote for fertilizer on stack size, I'm VERY sure that it's still 2x like 40d, but I've seen mentions of 4x on wiki. It's pretty straightforward increase. I prefer to avoid cooking seeds cuz you can't micromanage them well, short of harvesting as byproduct of tree farming, and you're limited to 200 at a time, which makes it worse to micromanage for me. Dwarven syrup is pretty much same as brewing, in size. Multiply sweet pod booze by five and you've got the eating amount ( and boozecooking for the rest ).

I think potash effect is closer to +50% (round up) because in my informal trial it boosted my stack size from 5 to 8. I have never seen a sweet pod stack bigger than 8 (legendary grower in fertilized field).

The 200-seed limit is precisely why I cook them; otherwise it is literally throwing away seeds due to an arbitrary limitation in the software. The 200-plump-helmet-spawn limit in particular is very easy to hit. Personally I forbid 1 of each seed in case I accidentally cook them all, and of course it's easy to gather more plants from the caverns.
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Root Infinity

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2011, 12:52:31 pm »

I've seen varying quote for fertilizer on stack size, I'm VERY sure that it's still 2x like 40d, but I've seen mentions of 4x on wiki. It's pretty straightforward increase. I prefer to avoid cooking seeds cuz you can't micromanage them well, short of harvesting as byproduct of tree farming, and you're limited to 200 at a time, which makes it worse to micromanage for me. Dwarven syrup is pretty much same as brewing, in size. Multiply sweet pod booze by five and you've got the eating amount ( and boozecooking for the rest ).

I think potash effect is closer to +50% (round up) because in my informal trial it boosted my stack size from 5 to 8. I have never seen a sweet pod stack bigger than 8 (legendary grower in fertilized field).

The 200-seed limit is precisely why I cook them; otherwise it is literally throwing away seeds due to an arbitrary limitation in the software. The 200-plump-helmet-spawn limit in particular is very easy to hit. Personally I forbid 1 of each seed in case I accidentally cook them all, and of course it's easy to gather more plants from the caverns.
I heard it was x2+1 for fertilized fields...
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Mushroo

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2011, 12:55:40 pm »

I heard it was x2+1 for fertilized fields...

Maybe I'm doing it wrong... what is the difference between (f)ertilize and (s)easonal fertilize?
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Root Infinity

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Re: Farming analysis
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2011, 12:57:23 pm »

Year-round versus one season.
Perhaps your planters simply were unlucky?
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