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Author Topic: How bugged are weapons at the moment?  (Read 21949 times)

Alastar

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2011, 12:49:34 am »

They aren't bugged. They are simulated somewhat crudely:

*

Weapons consist of only one material, so the calculations assume solid metal spears and whips.

Weapons are assumed to be rigid, for whips, this means we have ~1kg of metal impacting at supersonic speeds instead of a bullet-like tip.

Weapons aren't simply turned away, they hit perfectly straight and either penetrate or not. Needles would poke through armour like butter.

Weapons of the same weight all handle the same. A weapon balanced towards the tip may benefit from a higher velocity multiplier, but it won't be harder to handle (chance to parry, recovery speed).

Weapons don't receive damage.

*

And adamantine is indeed quite nonsensical, which I ranted about often enough.

It has the density of balsa wood when solid, the density of normal stone when liquid. Solidifying adamantine would gain 12 times its current volume.
If I understand the properties right, a max_edge exceeding obsidian shouldn't be possible with its molar mass and density (obsidan fractures to edges a couple of molecules wide).

Urist Da Vinci already pointed out the problems with its perfect rigidity.

I always felt it was an unsightly blemish on the otherwise very cool materials system, created by 'let's pull extreme values out of nowhere' rather than 'let's think what we expect our god metal to be like, then simulate that'.
To which the reaction by most players seems to be 'shut up, we don't want it to be just slightly better steel'... which in my opinion misses the point.

*

Not getting into the details of weapon usefulness, as I've written far too much about that already. Perhaps I should sum it up some time and link to it/put it in my sig.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 12:51:29 am by Alastar »
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ImBocaire

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2011, 01:00:48 am »

Maybe adamantine has an extremely open crystal structure when solid, like water (only more so). Perhaps the crystal structure creates a microscopic, nigh atomic-scale structure of serrations when sharpened to an edge, letting it slice through steel like butter.

Maybe it's infused with some sort of vibrational energy that makes it oscillate at a very high frequency, letting it slice through steel like butter.

Or maybe it's nonsensical because it is quite literally the god-metal that holds the demonic hordes at bay and is jacked up with more magic than you can shake a stick at.
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Vattic

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2011, 02:29:14 am »

What we really need is a silver warhammer with an adamantine shell.

Awesome post.
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RAKninja

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2011, 03:26:30 am »

All I really care about is which weapon is better for sending enemies flying, warhammers, or maces?

Armor doesn't really matter for blunt weapons either when goblins can take a one way flight into the wall.
mauls.

they work even better if you make them larger.
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CriticallyAshamed

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2011, 03:35:05 am »

I find it amusing to imagine a thread of addy that is uncomprehensibly straight and has a point incredibly sharp. Those poor kids getting sewed up with adamantine thread =/

The inner chemist in me is rather interested in the density increase as well. What exactly is Adamantine classified as in game? Some sort of alloy that was forged when the Earth was made? Or is it a new element?
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Kay12

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2011, 03:42:00 am »

DF Wiki has a lore bit that adamantine is a holy substance that was used by the gods to seal the demons in hell, explaining the Hidden Fun Stuff.
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FallingWhale

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2011, 03:57:24 am »

Fun facts about Adamantine based only on the contents of the raw files:

- It melts at 8333 C (15032 F), so you'd need to throw it into the sun in order to melt it.
- If it did melt, its density would increase 13x from 0.2 g/cm3 to 2.6 g/cm3. Most normal substances decrease in density slightly when they melt. This means that a melting adamantine bar would shrink.
- Adamantine can be made ~10x sharper than most metals, according to the max edge.
- Adamantine has a specific heat 2x higher than water, and 15-20x higher than most other metals.

Strange consequences of these facts:

- The speed of sound in air is 343 m/s (1126 ft/s), in water is 1484 m/s, and in iron is 5120 m/s. According to my calculations, the speed of sound in adamantine is at least 63200 m/s, due to the high stiffness and low density. If adamantine is perfectly rigid, as shown by having 0 strain at fracture in the raw files, then the speed of sound in the metal approaches the speed of light. Adamantine musical instruments would produce ultrasonic vibrations, and cut off the fingers of the musician.
- Even a perfectly sharp blade needs a bit of force to cut, as you have to force the flesh/stone/metal/etc. to part so the blade can move forwards. Since adamantine has low weight, there would be little momentum in the sword swing and all of the force would come from the user.
Ironically you couldn't melt it on the sun(5500C), but doable with some lab furnaces.
Most normal materials increase density freezing, that's part of why water is weird. I assume you mean unbound metals and alloys.
Literally sharpened to the neutron.

c=300,000km/s so it's just going fast. Flesh cushions the vibrations and there is no sharpened edge to use.
The force required is actually you forcing the target's body into a flat split off i.e. the edge. Candy is in fact so sharp that leaving it on the ground would result in the blade's own miniscule weight forcing it into the ground until it hit the hilt.
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Pan

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2011, 03:58:29 am »

DF Wiki has a lore bit that adamantine is a holy substance that was used by the gods to seal the demons in hell, explaining the Hidden Fun Stuff.

So a wizard did it then...
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Dradym

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2011, 04:47:46 am »

i dont think armok would like being called a skinny, pathetic, rely-on-magic-to-defend-oneself, pussy.

though, me, i like wizards. -nerdface-
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Girlinhat

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2011, 08:05:34 am »

There's different kinds of wizards in the world.  Some are doddly old mages with pointy hats and wands.  Others are strong-shouldered warlocks with a staff of iron and the will to throw mountains.  It's also ultimately a reference to a lame cop-out, perhaps founded in DnD.  "A wizard did it" is the lame excuse for anything that doesn't make sense.  "Why is there a giant pillar of rock suspended above my character?  What architect would design that into their dining hall?" "A wizard did it."

Either way, I actually very much enjoy the theory of the world's creation, as listed in the bottom of the adamantine article.  It lists a very different world creation myth, in which the "demons" created the world, and the "gods" perverted it.  It states that demons created a small ball of slade in the sky, and kept it warm with their own heat, and that the gods (or Armok alone) encased that in semi-molten rock to trap the demons and build their own world atop that.  That means that HFS is the good guy, and all of creation is the invader.  I believe this rather eloquently describes DF - life as we know it is a sin against nature.

Also, wtb adamantine voice tubes.  A solid rod of candy that wires through the fort, allowing anyone to speak and be heard.  Dwarven PA system, anyone?

Vodrilus

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2011, 08:09:54 am »

Also, wtb adamantine voice tubes.  A solid rod of candy that wires through the fort, allowing anyone to speak and be heard.  Dwarven PA system, anyone?

Imagine the din around raw addy columns...
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Girlinhat

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2011, 08:24:22 am »

You should be able to hear the HFS, clear as a bell, along with the slow hum of magma washing against the spire...

lanceleoghauni

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2011, 08:56:08 am »

To further connect it to D&D I imagine it must be like pandemonium, even out of the winds there the howling never ceases, only becomes more quiet. you'd not be able to sleep anywhere near them
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yggiz

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2011, 08:57:18 am »

You should be able to hear the HFS, clear as a bell, along with the slow hum of magma washing against the spire...
^Love this

This thread is why I love df. Dammit I love it so much.

We have a bunch of building blocks, and we jam square pegs into circle holes and then examine and deconstruct why the pegs are square and why the holes are circular.

It's awesome!
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: How bugged are weapons at the moment?
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2011, 09:11:56 am »

Also, wtb adamantine voice tubes.  A solid rod of candy that wires through the fort, allowing anyone to speak and be heard.  Dwarven PA system, anyone?

Imagine the din around raw addy columns...

The raw ore appears to be regular layer rock that is full of adamantine strands that have to be carefully extracted and linked together. Dwarves have some secret technique regarding adamantine, and I'm guessing that the strands/thread are actually very fine (hair-size) chains. This would allow some fabrication, as you could link the micro-chains end-to-end to make a longer piece of thread. With some other secret technique, you could smelt a layered chain cloth into other objects. Adamantine clothing would be super-fine chain mail. This would also explain why it takes so long to make a ball of addy thread from the ore. "Chains" also fit the flavour of something intended to seal in HFS.

Because the ore is strands-in-rock, some of the sound would be dampened out, so you may just hear creepy noises rather than HFS-speech on the other side...
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