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Author Topic: 'Insert World Name Here' Universalis: EU3 Low Fantasy Modding Project  (Read 12551 times)

Rakonas

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2011, 05:24:26 pm »

I really would play the hell out of a "Song of Ice and Fire"-ish fantasy EU 3 mod. I keep thinking Paradox should have released a fantasy setting as an optional expansion.

Crusader Kings 2 sounds good for this as well.

I'll need to get back into EU 3, I spend all my time with Hearts of Iron 3 lately.
Song of Ice and Fire would really work better with CK, honestly. Eu3 isn't good for representing people at all.
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Johnfalcon99977

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2011, 05:41:06 pm »

I would say that races replaces cultures and cultures replace cultures. That way you can have different cultures inside races.
That doesn't make sense, but I can get a feel for what

Keep in mind that if your working with Biology, Races are just different variations, while species are entirely new takes.

Final Words (for this post): How about a HRE style state that starts off as the Roman Empire (as in set in our pseudo-Europe) but slowly degrades into warring medieval duchies under a decentralised power? It's fairly low magic and low fantasy but the further you get away from this "central arena" the more fantastical the setting gets. In the east, elves live in woods, waiting to reunite with their lost kin, fighting off the hordes of undead that come pouring out of fantasy china, in the west the pseudo-Aztecs summon dark servants (with a sacrifice of population) and use them to ritually war against the other city states, in the south the cold winds blow and the eskimo wannabes grow weary of the warm lands of the northern men and are preparing to freeze the rest of the world in an eternal winter.
The first part about some HRE style state sounds good, but it goes down hill from there. The rest sound extremely cliche'd or far too similar to RL. Keep in mind this is low-fantasy, which is suppost to be far more plausible and less magical then High-Fantasy. If you want high fantasy, look somewhere else.

And man, lets fuck the vanilla fantasy races and make new orginal ones. I would suggest you try some of Max White's Species. (After asking for Permission, of course.)
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RF

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2011, 06:02:33 pm »

Perhaps Species could replace Cultures? And different Races could replace Sub-Culture?
I would say that races replaces cultures and cultures replace cultures. That way you can have different cultures inside races.

Thinking the same.

So you have like:

Culture Group: Elf
Cultures: Wanker elves, dick elves, snotty elves and the always hated Tolkien elves.

The first part about some HRE style state sounds good, but it goes down hill from there. The rest sound extremely cliche'd or far too similar to RL. Keep in mind this is low-fantasy, which is suppost to be far more plausible and less magical then High-Fantasy. If you want high fantasy, look somewhere else.

And man, lets fuck the vanilla fantasy races and make new orginal ones. I would suggest you try some of Max White's Species. (After asking for Permission, of course.)

To me, the idea is to capture the essence of vanilla fantasy whilst putting a nice spin on it. Barbaric elves, warring humans etc.

Low fantasy is never less magical, really. We're talking swords and sorcery here. The idea is that magic is in the hands of dicks (since people who want power usually just want it for themselves etc) and not in the hands of the "good guys".
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 06:05:41 pm by RF »
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2011, 06:04:42 pm »

I like the maps that anzki4 and Johnfalcon99977 posted, but I feel that Europe still looks too much like Europe (at least for my tastes). Getting rid of Pseudo-Spain and Pseudo Italy would help. Pseudo-Sicily could be broken up into a chain of small islands as well. The west coast of Pseudo-Europe is too smooth compared to the east coast, but I understand that the maps are merely to give us a rough idea of what the world will look like.

Just some thoughts.
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anzki4

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2011, 07:37:39 pm »

I would say that races replaces cultures and cultures replace cultures. That way you can have different cultures inside races.
That doesn't make sense, but I can get a feel for what

Keep in mind that if your working with Biology, Races are just different variations, while species are entirely new takes.

I know, but most fantasy-stuff uses "race" instead of species. I meant that kind of race.

Low fantasy is never less magical, really. We're talking swords and sorcery here. The idea is that magic is in the hands of dicks (since people who want power usually just want it for themselves etc) and not in the hands of the "good guys".

And IMO in low fantasy, magic is more rare and harder to do. So every second guy walking on the street does not know a crapload of spells.

To me, the idea is to capture the essence of vanilla fantasy whilst putting a nice spin on it. Barbaric elves, warring humans etc.
I agree.
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Dsarker

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2011, 07:41:16 pm »

I would say that races replaces cultures and cultures replace cultures. That way you can have different cultures inside races.
That doesn't make sense, but I can get a feel for what

Keep in mind that if your working with Biology, Races are just different variations, while species are entirely new takes.

I know, but most fantasy-stuff uses "race" instead of species. I meant that kind of race.

Low fantasy is never less magical, really. We're talking swords and sorcery here. The idea is that magic is in the hands of dicks (since people who want power usually just want it for themselves etc) and not in the hands of the "good guys".

And IMO in low fantasy, magic is more rare and harder to do. So every second guy walking on the street does not know a crapload of spells.

Usually not, no. But the bad guys have craptons of magic. Good guys use swords. That's how you tell.
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Johnfalcon99977

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2011, 07:46:50 pm »

To me, the idea is to capture the essence of vanilla fantasy whilst putting a nice spin on it. Barbaric elves, warring humans etc.
No, as I said, I do not like the vanilla fantasy. Its so over used makes use of little to no creativity. And, in fact, what you saying is exactly what I am talking about. People use the cliche'd Fantasy races and then put your proposed "Twist" on them, even though the twist does little and they are still "Elves" or "Dwarves" in contect. No Vanilla Fantasy Species.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 07:53:21 pm by Johnfalcon99977 »
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anzki4

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2011, 07:52:46 pm »

To me, the idea is to capture the essence of vanilla fantasy whilst putting a nice spin on it. Barbaric elves, warring humans etc.
No, as I said, I do not like the vanilla fantasy. Its so over used makes use of little to no creativity. And, in fact, what you saying is exactly what I am talking about. People use the cliche'd Fantasy races and then put your proposed "Twist" on them, even though the twist does little and they are still "Elves" or "Dwarves" in contect. No Vanilla Fantasy Species.
But how about if they are not just Elves or Dwarves, but there is a difference inside races. Not every elf serves the same king/queen/god/goddes and Dwarves fight wars against each other.

Also, usually when someone makes own species, they either make them very similiar to vanilla fantasy - just with different names - or then they make something completely odd (like three-headed sentient elephant or something.) And IMO, neither of those are better than just the vanilla fantasy species.
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Dsarker

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2011, 07:56:36 pm »

Just go back to basics. Mythological creatures.


Drunkard centaurs, kidnapping fae folk, changelings, giants, dwarfs, trolls, the whol schmozle.
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Johnfalcon99977

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Lysabild

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2011, 12:56:14 am »

On the map: I see your suggestions, however your only looking at the eastern part, and breaking it up into a ton of big island looking things, it doesn't speak to me, I am using the real world as a guideline, and the EU3 province map to make sure size and spread works, I can follow you, but it's more to me than just dotting some islands and cutting some piece off, otherwise I wouldn't have worked on this for 2 years without coming up with a map I'm happy with.

I really would play the hell out of a "Song of Ice and Fire"-ish fantasy EU 3 mod. I keep thinking Paradox should have released a fantasy setting as an optional expansion.

Crusader Kings 2 sounds good for this as well.

I'll need to get back into EU 3, I spend all my time with Hearts of Iron 3 lately.

The Song of Ice and Fire is defn. more suited for CK2, for many reasons, however, it is the way it handles "Good/evil" and the fact that it's fresh, fantasy and not high fantasy that made me draw the comparison.

Perhaps Species could replace Cultures? And different Races could replace Sub-Culture?
It will not be drawn up like that, again things will not be squared and black and white. But this is way to soon to speak of, as it is.

I really like John's map, by the by. It just needs some more lakes and a few island chains dotted along certain coast lines and it'll be perfect. Maybe a lot more work on the east, too. It just seems a bit rough over there.
I wouldn't call it perfect at all, because my "pseudo-europe" as it's been named is far from done, theres no work done on the western continent, I'm not happy with tons of the things and the map being broken in a few pieces and having a few quickly drawn islands thrown in would not sate it, I have done tons of work on EU3 mods, and could easily have been done with a mod by myself, but I have just never made a map I felt I could spend a lot of time with and be happy with.
@Lysa: You've got to remember that a lot of the attraction of a fantasy mod is the idea that it's high fantasy. You're fucking about with magic and the like. That's what would make it fun. Low fantasy, low magic is basically like vanilla EU3 but in a made up setting.
I know people like high fantasy and fireballs flying everywhere, but it doesn't interest me at all, and I hope you'll forgive me for saying that I won't spend time doing a mod that doesn't interest me. It would make a boring world, a boring mod and a boring work, for me.
Cool, weird cultures should be the primary goal here, with vastly differing playstyles depending on who you choose.
I disagree, one should never strive to be weird for the sake of being weird, and cool varies from people to people. I agree that there should be quite differing playstyles, however.
The undead are servants of a civilization of humans who've found a way of raising the dead. They use no others in their armies (except humans for cannons or something and we give them hella low morale cannons) but they are weak and relatively expensive (mark up value of 20-30%, I say). Of course, it means that the civilization has no (if it's possible to do for ONLY troop death) war exhaustion and the army never tires nor gets attrition.
Again, I read it, and I can see your excited writing it, but I'm not personally interested at all.
Stuff like that. It's interesting, it changes gameplay completely and it makes a formidable warlike civilization with key weaknesses. The only issue is the 1v10 instant death rule, but I think we should probably try to find a way to turn that off if it isn't hardcoded.
I don't think that rule is removable, but I don't think "UNDEAD AND MAGIX" is the way to create an interesting world with great depth.
I like your idea a lot, of course, but it has issues of it's own. Namely that knowing the laws of probability, EVERY civilization would end up like that and it wouldn't be cool anymore. Nevermind the fact that the player probably won't be happy if it happens to them.
One can make it unable to happen to players and the triggers are easily changeable to not make it happen like your predict and the event chain would allow for multiple ending scenarios.
Final Words (for this post): How about a HRE style state that starts off as the Roman Empire (as in set in our pseudo-Europe) but slowly degrades into warring medieval duchies under a decentralised power? It's fairly low magic and low fantasy but the further you get away from this "central arena" the more fantastical the setting gets. In the east, elves live in woods, waiting to reunite with their lost kin, fighting off the hordes of undead that come pouring out of fantasy china, in the west the pseudo-Aztecs summon dark servants (with a sacrifice of population) and use them to ritually war against the other city states, in the south the cold winds blow and the eskimo wannabes grow weary of the warm lands of the northern men and are preparing to freeze the rest of the world in an eternal winter.

How does that sound to everyone?
The HRE mechanics will be used, but not for anything romanlike. I'd like to avoid "elves, dwarves, halflings" and instead include humanoid subspecies having evolved next to the humans, in different environments, like the Neanderthals, just more of the kind, with bigger differences. But again, all this is useless before a good map that I am happy with can be converted into a good EU3 map.

As for the rest, far too fantasy for my like.



To all other comments on Cultures: Save it for later now, please.


I like the maps that anzki4 and Johnfalcon99977 posted, but I feel that Europe still looks too much like Europe (at least for my tastes). Getting rid of Pseudo-Spain and Pseudo Italy would help. Pseudo-Sicily could be broken up into a chain of small islands as well. The west coast of Pseudo-Europe is too smooth compared to the east coast, but I understand that the maps are merely to give us a rough idea of what the world will look like.

Just some thoughts.

In the newest version Pseudo-Sicily is gone and Italy is melted into the main continent because I felt it needed bulk, I however quite like the pseudo-spain. I'll look into diversifying it more though.

Also, Pseudo Europe has been given the most work, and again as I repeat, everything needs much more work, not to mention the whole africa deal is a placeholder and the east needs a ton of diversifying.


It is perfectly possible and, in fact, easy to create a non-cliche fantasy race. This link is pure proof. And these races are also far better then the stupid vanilla fantasy species.

I am also creating a rought kingdom map for Pseudo-Europe. I'll post it when its done.
That is really high fantasy though, not really in my taste at all.

Just go back to basics. Mythological creatures.


Drunkard centaurs, kidnapping fae folk, changelings, giants, dwarfs, trolls, the whol schmozle.
Mythology is cool, but try to think out the evolution of a Centaur :b




Again, I love your interest, but I myself have a vision here that I've not diverted from in all the time I've worked on this. Fantasy is good, but just thinking up something cool and saying MAGIX is boring and it's not creative to make vastly unique creatures unless you actually thought about how they became what they are, and what they do, why they do it and so on.

If I want "orc" then I'll think about how and where they would've split off from humans, what would've promoted their need for size, teeth, so on.

I'm of course sorry if this is not in your interest, but then, you could easily mod my mod to fit your own idea once I am done :) I'll let everyone do with the end product as they please and release submods, even help with them. But for the mainpart of this, I have a vision I'm trying to fulfill.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 01:35:09 am by Lysabild »
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Dsarker

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2011, 01:19:24 am »

If you haven't read the Fafhrd stuff, that could be very useful for what you want to do.
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RF

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2011, 06:50:03 am »

I don't suppose you'd mind me trying to put a team together for a high fantasy mod then, would you Lys?
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Lysabild

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2011, 07:49:22 am »

I don't suppose you'd mind me trying to put a team together for a high fantasy mod then, would you Lys?
Why would I? :)
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Johnfalcon99977

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Re: Fantasia Universalis: EU3 Modding Project
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2011, 08:57:16 am »

I think I have found a more realistic way for the Undead to work if you are really interested.

The Undead Plauge is not something that simply "Happens", but rather requires you to be next to another necro-kingdom. It needs to be next to another undead kingdom to be infected in the first place. At the start of the game, there is one such "Infector" state, the Dark Necroarchy or something, that would take up a very large space on the map. This Necroarchy would have hordes of shitty soldiers, and awful technologic. It would have a hard time expanding if they tried to conquer it all, but it could instead try and infect another country with the Undead, to bring it down to its tech level, therefore allowing to to expand by attacking it. This should be the most convenient way Necroarchies would be able to expand. The "Necro" techgroup would also have a very slow tech advance too, in order to keep the Necroarchies expanding too much. Living kingdoms could combat the spread of Necromancy by crusading Undead states and making them convert back to a Normal Kingdom. However, by declaring and sending your soldiers over, you risk them being infected and carring the "Undead Disease" back to your kingdom. At this point you would pretty much have a big moral choice. Slaughter your innocent and holy crusaders and keep your people safe or let them come home to their familes and risk infecting your kingdom. In fact, the whole "Undead Crusade" and "Undead Civil War" could be riddled with nicely implented and well done moral choices that could make you think. The sgin of a good moral choice is if you really think about your action beyond how they effect your stats.

Necroarchies would be highly aggressive too. They will often spend time fighting eachother and trying to infect living kingdoms. This Undead thing could go far, but I think I should spend less time thinking about how it would work and more time explaining how it happened realisticly.
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