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Total Members Voted: 105

[Girlinhat]

Some concerns I have with a 'modern interface' are that it may...

Something about this post (and previously related one) sicken me for some reason...  I feel like you WANT to have an unplayable game.  The game is not "better" or "more hardcore" because it's difficult to assign work orders.  We could add obscure ctrl+button and shift+button commands for common actions if we wanted things to be difficult.  Similarly, the game will not be "fluffy" or "casual" if it's easy to use.  You're still going to get raped by skeletal oxen (and I mean that literally) and you're going to suffer flooding your entire fort over the course of 15 years from one murky pool due to an unfortunate party-related masonry accident.  In many places, the controls and navigation of menus is confusing and a hindrance.  I always have trouble navigating the different menus in the military screen, just changing from schedule to uniform can be confusing at times.  Adding easier-to-use controls doesn't remove interface elements.  There's two basic rules of thought to accessibility: Make it into less, and Make what you have, easier.  You could reduce the number of options, and this would result, naturally, in a simpler interface, but that's not the right thing to do.  You could leave everything exactly as it is, but change the keystrokes a bit, make everything smooth and easy, and it might improve things dramatically.  Being easy to use doesn't mean that there's not much to use, it's just that a lot of poor game developers (even if they're big companies) take that route and many people come to associate easy use with less function.  Making this leap is just as bad as the people who create less function.  Take Myst for example, a complex puzzle and amazing adventure game, that to quote someone, "You could play entirely with your tongue.  You know, if you're into that sort of thing."  It uses the mouse and left click pretty much only, yet it remains an astounding masterpiece of gameplay.

TL;DR - Easier interface doesn't mean it has to be less interface.  In fact, if it becomes easier to use, then you can add MORE interface for the same complexity.

[Tallefred]

Personally? I love the interface. I hate using the mouse, and tend to use hotkeys as much as possible- this interface is a dream for me. I have the whole thing memorized and I can do anything I please with a few taps on the keys. In addition, I'm a smug bastard who loves that look people get on their faces when they look over my shoulder.

Would I welcome changes? Sure, but only additions, such as this latest one. Any changes that add functionality, such as the military changes, are welcome too. But smoothing out the controls just means I have to learn them all over.

Of course, that's my personal, selfish view. But in terms of game development? If I were Toady, it would be the first thing I would fix if I wanted to expand the community. Thankfully, that doesn't seem to be that high on his list of priorities, and I get to enjoy my interface as is for a while.

[YetAnotherStupidDorf]

I find funny logic like "I learned this crazy mess sacrificing great amount of time and brainpower. I am soo good, pulling off such potentially unneccessary task. Don't even dare to simplify it and making it more consistent and sane. My work would go in vain and my e-penis would shrink. Why anyone else should have less problems fighting with interface and trying to understand it than me?". Worst kind of elitism.

Some other comments:

• "Modern interface is (insert strawman here)" - Nuff said. Consious conflating modern graphical interface (that do not apply to DF at all) with modern text interface is for me deception.
• "But but but there is so much changes in game! Interface would have to change over and over!" - Sooo? Sanely designed interface engine would allow to make very simple to change it. Just edit few lines in XML interface description or whatever.
• Ideal interface would allow game both by keyboard and mouse, with caveat that you should be able to do everything without mouse. But mouse would be allowed to use anywhere where targetting would be needed (some call it aimless waving, I call it use of proper tool to proper task).
• Someone else addessed already inconsistences in interface. Having four ways to mark something (mining designation, stockpile, room, zone) is obtuse. Three last should be unified in one, that works similiar to zones. Etc etc etc.

Conclusion: interface is utter crap, and anyone saying otherwise is in denial, trolling or (most often case) just got used to it and does not care for others, including new players.

[Kay12]

Personally? I love the interface. I hate using the mouse, and tend to use hotkeys as much as possible- this interface is a dream for me.

I don't think you believe it's that simple yourself. Not all mouse tasks can be simplified by hot keys - for example, choosing a building using a keyboard is all cool, but designations, walls and burrows could be much simpler with mouse.

[Lexx]

As the game develops and gets refined of course its important that the menus and interface get upgraded and made more functional. Controls shouldn't be the challenge behind a game. The gameplay should offer the fun and challenges ( Which even at this stage it does hugely! ).

[zwei]

1 - look out of place with CP437 graphics
2 - require me to wave the mouse about aimlessly and endlessly
3 - use an inefficient manner of managing menus because 'extensive use of hotkeys is obsolete'
4 - be too complex (to write and maintain), resulting in slowness and glitchiness
5 - ditch powerful functionality if it's unintuitive
6 - be more difficult to integrate with external tools

You basically expect it to be piece of garbage and consider intuitive to be antonym of powerfull.

Problem here is that current interface is not really powerfull or well optimized to begin with. Inefficient menu system, scattered functionality. It seems already quite complex to maintain especially given differences between various parts of gui (you can guess in which version some element was added based on its features and polish and you would be rarely wrong).

That is why people often call for improvements.

[Tallefred]

Personally? I love the interface. I hate using the mouse, and tend to use hotkeys as much as possible- this interface is a dream for me.

I don't think you believe it's that simple yourself. Not all mouse tasks can be simplified by hot keys - for example, choosing a building using a keyboard is all cool, but designations, walls and burrows could be much simpler with mouse.

No, that's certainly true. It would be nice to be able to designate buildings more quickly. I'm not against added functionality, like I said- being able to do things with a mouse would be fine and wouldn't affect the already existing keyboard system. But I would like the general key layout to remain the way it is.

And just to reiterate so that people don't think I'm being a self centered prick, I will not be upset when Toady does change it. I understand the need for changes from a design perspective. I'm just personally happy with the current system.

[Telcontar]

Yes, yes, yes. A thousand times yes. That one update alone will save me endless keystrokes.

[Kay12]

And just to reiterate so that people don't think I'm being a self centered prick, I will not be upset when Toady does change it. I understand the need for changes from a design perspective. I'm just personally happy with the current system.

Aye you're right, better not to get too fanatical about these.

Mouse support would be extremely nice. Imagine the wheel going up/down levels and clicking selecting/centering.

[Alastar]

Hmm, quite strong reactions I got there. Not sure if disagreements are this big or whether I phrased things badly.

I do think that the interface needs a lot of work. It's not as powerful as it could be, very inelegant in places and badly in need of standardisation.
I do think that taking masochistic pride in an obtuse interface is misguided.
I do think that wanting one 'to keep the riff-raff out' is even more misguided.
I do think that something like vi-like controls by default would go too far in the 'efficient but forbidding' direction.

I'd also like to point out that not wanting an interface that may 'require me to wave the mouse about aimlessly and endlessly' (emphasis new) is not the same as not wanting proper mouse support - that would be quite neat, whether I use it or not.
If I get efficient, responsive and consistent controls that don't require me to take my hands off the keyboard and a unified style if I opt for CP437 graphics, I'll be very happy (again, we're quite far away from that in parts).

And maybe I'm getting old and paranoid regarding modern interfaces... but I get touchy when a lot of effort goes into making something worse for superficial attractiveness.

[Lancezh]

Hmm, quite strong reactions I got there. Not sure if disagreements are this big or whether I phrased things badly.

I do think that the interface needs a lot of work. It's not as powerful as it could be, very inelegant in places and badly in need of standardisation.
I do think that taking masochistic pride in an obtuse interface is misguided.
I do think that wanting one 'to keep the riff-raff out' is even more misguided.
I do think that something like vi-like controls by default would go too far in the 'efficient but forbidding' direction.

I'd also like to point out that not wanting an interface that may 'require me to wave the mouse about aimlessly and endlessly' (emphasis new) is not the same as not wanting proper mouse support - that would be quite neat, whether I use it or not.
If I get efficient, responsive and consistent controls that don't require me to take my hands off the keyboard and a unified style if I opt for CP437 graphics, I'll be very happy (again, we're quite far away from that in parts).

And maybe I'm getting old and paranoid regarding modern interfaces... but I get touchy when a lot of effort goes into making something worse for superficial attractiveness.

I dont mean to be offensive, and i mean it, but you have obviously no clue about what you're talking here. Modern != Mouse, Modern!= sacrificing any Possibilities.

Good interface design rearranges current functions without cutting them (i do this every day at work) to increase the accessability and make the stuff less frustrating for newcomers and to decrease the amount of interactions (clicks) for experienced users. It was mentioned many times before, inconsistence is a BIG problem, there's a huge cap between what i expect and what i get in this interface. (For instance sometimes "Enter" means accept, sometimes not. Sometimes "x" is deleting something sometimes not.

Allowing the scrollwheel of a mouse for instance to mimic the function of Shift + 5 and Ctrl + 5 is a good example, its a usability enhancement and its something that you intuitively would expect from a game.

BUT

Interface and usability design is not easy! Its simple for us to know everything better, thats the forum's users nature.. but since toady is very protective about his game (which is understandable) he may or may not want to have professional help from that side, fearing that it would take something away from the game. I personally doubt that an excellent developer like him has any clue about accesible interface nor sees the deeper need in them. I've had many programmers under my wings in the years and some of them were pure genious in programming and creating code but pretty much all of them were horrible in making a good usable interface.

[CriticallyAshamed]

_{It'd be nice to have a tutorial}

[Alastar]

I dont mean to be offensive, and i mean it, but you have obviously no clue about what you're talking here.

I'd prefer to keep this free of disingenious disclaimers immediately followed by an ad-hominem.

Modern != Mouse, Modern!= sacrificing any Possibilities.

Good interface design rearranges current functions without cutting them (i do this every day at work) to increase the accessability and make the stuff less frustrating for newcomers and to decrease the amount of interactions (clicks) for experienced users.

Nothing to disagree with about the goals, if 'clicks' includes keystrokes... seems likely in the context. To me, reaching for the mouse = more work than a few dozen keystrokes -> only attractive when I'm going to do quite a bit of stuff where the mouse is more efficient.

It was mentioned many times before, inconsistence is a BIG problem, there's a huge cap between what i expect and what i get in this interface. (For instance sometimes "Enter" means accept, sometimes not. Sometimes "x" is deleting something sometimes not.

Yes. And I mentioned inconsistency and lack of transparency as a major weakness in the current interface, why insinuate that I'm indifferent or hostile towards fixing this?

Allowing the scrollwheel of a mouse for instance to mimic the function of Shift + 5 and Ctrl + 5 is a good example, its a usability enhancement and its something that you intuitively would expect from a game.

Agreed, that'd be a welcome and natural addition.

BUT

Interface and usability design is not easy! Its simple for us to know everything better, thats the forum's users nature.. but since toady is very protective about his game (which is understandable) he may or may not want to have professional help from that side, fearing that it would take something away from the game. I personally doubt that an excellent developer like him has any clue about accesible interface nor sees the deeper need in them. I've had many programmers under my wings in the years and some of them were pure genious in programming and creating code but pretty much all of them were horrible in making a good usable interface.

And that's exactly the heart of the problem. Some companies sink untold manpower and $$$ into interfaces that still make me want to kill myself, so apparently it's hard.
You'd be in a better position to tell than me,  but making an interface simple, efficient and consistent doesn't seem as unrealistic for a single coder who isn't an interface expert than making it friendly without breaking things.

[Z1000000m]

I'd welcome any improvements and unification in the interface.
Especially the ones that could simplify constructions. Seriously why is there still those ,sorry to say, retarded 10x10 max and must-be-conencted  limitations? They pretty much make digging something out 20 times faster and painless than trying to constuct the same thing.
Also, as mentioned above, unification. Burrows, zones and stockpiles all use very diffrent controls, same goes with scrolling up/down in menus and exiting them. All that makes the game unnecassarily harder to learn.
Now, this is not a big problem for me after 2-3 years of playing, but I very much remember the first month or so of raging at the interface.

As for using the mouse scroll for z levels, you can do that in the binding menu. Still, I agree that its not intuitive and should be pointed out in wiki or someplace.

[Malorn]

Speaking personally, even being able to do everything with the current interface doesn't mean that I can do it quickly.  Knowing how to use the construction interface doesn't save you that much time.  Equally, I may understand the trade interface perfectly, but that doesn't mean it doesn't take a lot of time to find what I'm looking for.