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Author Topic: Getting magma out of a volcano  (Read 8903 times)

Nameless Archon

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2011, 12:08:42 pm »

the action method of smoothing and carving is very unreliable and often leads to fatalities ^^
I've never (yet) had a fatality in a case where I'm breaching magma via smoothing and carving where there are not multiple magma tiles trying to flow in at once (# of adjacent magma tiles < 2). I have had attempts at smoothing and carving where many (sometimes as many as 5 tiles) magma tiles attempted to flow in, and the hauler would sometimes get burned this way (presumably due to large volumes of adjacent magma trying to occupy too little space).

Also, I use haulers, not miners, so (at worst) I'm wasting one migrant with no meaningful skills!

I'm not sure I follow how your method would work with a volcano breach made below the top level of magma, as the spot above your channel will also be a wall that's holding back magma, and you can't dig down AND diagonally from above, AFAIK. Could you explain how that method would work for a making a hole two or three levels below the magma surface with a volcano that has the standard 1-tile thick obsidian walls?

The easiest reliable method I've found in my experiments is simply not to punch a hole where there's lots of adjacent magma trying to occupy the same space.  If I use an 'outside corner' that has only one tile of magma adjacent, the reduced flow is slow enough that the hauler should escape reliably.
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ignatzami

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2011, 12:13:02 pm »

if i were to channel out a moat and fill it with lava, from the top, would the rate of refill balance out the fill of the moat?
Probably not. The drain of the moat filling will likely eclipse the refill of the volcano by a large margin, and if your workshops are on the top level, they will lose magma and switch off.

When I build my magma forge area, I excavate a chamber on level -1 (to hold the magma), and a chamber on level 0 (to hold the workshops). Then I pump the reservoir full, then puncture the floor once pumping stops. You never need to worry about magma dropping mid-mood this way. (You can ruin a mood and lose a dwarf if magma workshops de-power due to magma loss!)

When I create the reservoir, I'm pumping magma out of the volcano into a fixed reservoir. Three bags of sand, three logs = Magma Safe Pump for 12 Embark points. (...and only three points, if you can cut wood on site to make charcoal.) The input tile of the pump has a ramp up to the level of the pump, and is directly adjacent to the magma-tube wall. Dwarf on level -1 smooths/carves, then walks immediately up the ramp and out of danger. A magma safe grate is placed over the ramp (keeps dodgers out of the lava, and magma critters out of the fort, magma doesn't flood up unless pumped), and the pump is manually operated to fill the reservoir from there.
i think i get the idea, but i have another question.  a murky pool was generated right on the lip of my volcano.  so much so that it's craterward side collapsed immediately on embark, and the water spilled into the crater, creating a bit of obsidian.  not an amazing amount, perhaps slightly less than 1/16th of the total crater area.  now, if i remember what i've read, 1 tile water + 1 tile magma = 1 tile of obsidian wall, right?  so, if i were to dig it from the side (or channel down from the top?) i would be left with 1 tile obsidian floor, correct?  and if i leave the border tiles intact (including those pesky corner tiles) i will have a little room inside the top z of lava, right?

taking the idea a step further, i could obsidianize the top of the crater, and piece by piece remove floor tiles and use pit/ponds to then obsidianize the level below and then channel down.  then i could refloor each z level, leafinf a hole in the middle, surrounded by wall, and a ceiling on the top level i want to actually inhabit (but still under at least 1 z from the top of the tube) and then, through floodgates, open up that hollow middle bit to allow the lava to restore itself to the top of the crater, submerging all my rooms i've built. 

then, as the moat draws from the top z, my magma workshops on my lowest in-crater floor would never have to worry about power.

or am i missing something glaring?

You have the right idea, but I believe that the pit pond needs to be on z-level +1 to the magma. Basically the bucket of water has to fall through one whole z-level of empty air before hitting the magma to obsidianize.

I have just tested this and it does in fact work. However, you have to be careful about how you designate your pit/pond. the created blocks of obsidian have to be supported.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 12:23:41 pm by ignatzami »
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Nameless Archon

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2011, 12:16:38 pm »

You have the right idea, but I believe that the pit pond needs to be on z-level +1 to the magma. Basically the bucket of water has to fall through one whole z-level of empty air before hitting the magma to obsidianize.
I think this is correct, but I've never tried to obsidianize the volcano opening before, so add salt and shake well before using. ;)
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ignatzami

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2011, 12:25:14 pm »

You have the right idea, but I believe that the pit pond needs to be on z-level +1 to the magma. Basically the bucket of water has to fall through one whole z-level of empty air before hitting the magma to obsidianize.
I think this is correct, but I've never tried to obsidianize the volcano opening before, so add salt and shake well before using. ;)

Based on a little !!SCIENCE!! I would guess that pit/ponding an area, by the edge of the volcano +2 z-levels from the top of the magma would eventually create enough of an obsidian footprint that you could dig down into it and make an obsidian plug. It won't be a quick process though.
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 01:20:41 pm »


The easiest reliable method I've found in my experiments is simply not to punch a hole where there's lots of adjacent magma trying to occupy the same space.  If I use an 'outside corner' that has only one tile of magma adjacent, the reduced flow is slow enough that the hauler should escape reliably.

that's why the "spillway" method I described above is superior. For most applications, faster flow == better than. With a good spillway setup you can breach as many as three adjacent tiles from the chute wall before your miner has to retreat.
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Nameless Archon

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2011, 01:40:55 pm »

that's why the "spillway" method I described above is superior. For most applications, faster flow == better than. With a good spillway setup you can breach as many as three adjacent tiles from the chute wall before your miner has to retreat.
I'd like to make sure I understand what you mean here.

Given the following setup (seen from above, walls = O, floor = . and Stairwell = X):
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM


..if we assume an "adequate" large spillway on the level below, the dwarf could smooth/carve all three of the green walls without moving from the stairs WITHOUT the magma washing over him and killing him? It seems like it would exist on his level long enough to cause an exposure and set him on fire...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 01:44:44 pm by Nameless Archon »
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2011, 01:49:13 pm »

that's why the "spillway" method I described above is superior. For most applications, faster flow == better than. With a good spillway setup you can breach as many as three adjacent tiles from the chute wall before your miner has to retreat.
I'd like to make sure I understand what you mean here.

Given the following setup (seen from above, walls = O, floor = . and Stairwell = X):
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM


..if we assume an "adequate" large spillway on the level below, the dwarf could channel all three of the green walls without moving from the stairs WITHOUT the magma washing over him and killing him? It seems like it would exist on his level long enough to cause an exposure and set him on fire...

If I were at home, I'd post the fort where I did it. You'll definitely get one open , and there's a decent chance he'll open two or even all three.
 A better setup might be something like

OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM


With a setup like that you might get as many as five or six tiles mined out, yeah, because the miner will just move around the bend to the next safe access point. The lava drops down quickly enough that the dwarf doesn't get significantly injured.
It *is* slightly higher risk, though, yes, especially if you don't use a legendary +5 miner. Four times out of five, though, your miner will come out relatively safe (maybe a slight burn, but nothing lethal or permanently incapacitating), and you can open up way more tiles to flow.
I may prefer this approach because I shamelessly abuse save-scumming and this method is a little higher-risk, higher-reward. When you need to melt out a whole frozen brook, a one-tile flow just isn't enough.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 01:54:14 pm by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy »
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Nameless Archon

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2011, 01:59:32 pm »

With a setup like that you might get as many as five or six tiles mined out, yeah, because the miner will just move around the bend to the next safe access point. The lava drops down quickly enough that the dwarf doesn't get significantly injured.
What about something like this?

OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
......XOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM


I may prefer this approach because I shamelessly abuse save-scumming
Aha! There's the difference. I don't save-scum. Reveal (stonecunning) is one thing, remaking world events by replaying them for the desired outcome is a bridge too far for me.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 02:01:33 pm by Nameless Archon »
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Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2011, 02:06:16 pm »

With a setup like that you might get as many as five or six tiles mined out, yeah, because the miner will just move around the bend to the next safe access point. The lava drops down quickly enough that the dwarf doesn't get significantly injured.
What about something like this?

OOOOOOOOM
......XOM
......XOM
......XOM
OOOOOOOOM


I may prefer this approach because I shamelessly abuse save-scumming
Aha! There's the difference. I don't save-scum. Reveal (stonecunning) is one thing, remaking world events by replaying them for the desired outcome is a bridge too far for me.

You need the intervening walls because once lava stops falling, it gets real dangerous real fast. It's smart to continue the dividing walls in your "spillway" as well.

We all have our lines we draw :P I won't use danger rooms because they seem to unrealistically break the game, and I won't use Runesmith because it's hacking "reality", but I see save-scumming as just playing out alternate realities. That's the whole point of having a saved game! =)

Reveal is obviously dwarven magic, and thus acceptable.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 02:11:03 pm by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy »
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RAKninja

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2011, 02:14:20 pm »



You have the right idea, but I believe that the pit pond needs to be on z-level +1 to the magma. Basically the bucket of water has to fall through one whole z-level of empty air before hitting the magma to obsidianize.

I have just tested this and it does in fact work. However, you have to be careful about how you designate your pit/pond. the created blocks of obsidian have to be supported.

well, yea, i knew the pond zone had to be on z+1, i perhaps didnt word my question to reflect this.  also knew about the support thing.  thanks for testing for me and responding though..... it'll make my goblin tower work much better than the original design.  i dont mind the slow rate of work.... heh, you should see my current dwarven fortress.... it takes months to do anything.
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jhxmt

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2011, 02:53:58 pm »

An alternative to the above spillway method is simply to make the 'spillway' your primary outlet - if you can breach the volcano one z-level higher than the level on which you want to use the magma, the lower z-level 'spillway' ends up being your magma basement, as it were...which is generally large enough that your miner will have plenty of time to mine/smooth/carve/whatever the upper tiles before it fills up and the magma backflows.   :)

The method I use (which I took from a thread here somewhere which I now cannot find) is usually as follows (looking from above):

Z = 0
Code: [Select]
MMMMMMMMMMM
OOOOOOOOOOO
OJOJOJOJOJO
O.O.O.O.O.O
ODODODODODO
O.........O
OOOOO.OOOOO

Z = -1
Code: [Select]
MMMMMMMMMMM
OOOOOOOOOOO
OU.U.U.U.UO
O.........O
O.........O
O.........O
O.........O

...where M is the volcano, O is a wall/unmined rock, U is upward stairwell, J is downward stairwell, D is a door and . is floor/mined rock.

The z-1 diagram can look like whatever you want after the U staircases are in place.  Or you could use up/downs.

Once that's all set up, designate the O tiles on the upper level next to the J's for mining (or smoothing/carving if you really want).  The magma will flow straight down the staircase while your miner moves onto the next extension, and you can lock the door behind him.  Once he's opened all the inlets, he'll leave the area and you can wall off the top section.

Easiest, safest and most convenient way I've found to set up a volcano breach.  I generally build grates/fortifications on the lower levels to weed out 'undesirables' from the magma.  No need to do it on the top level (or smooth/carve) if you're going to wall it off anyway!  :D
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Nameless Archon

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2011, 03:35:20 pm »

An alternative to the above spillway method is simply to make the 'spillway' your primary outlet (snip) Easiest, safest and most convenient way I've found to set up a volcano breach.  I generally build grates/fortifications on the lower levels to weed out 'undesirables' from the magma.  No need to do it on the top level (or smooth/carve) if you're going to wall it off anyway!  :D
Ooh. I think I like this. I'll give this a spin for !!Science!! and see if I can keep the haulers alive while getting better flow rates. If it doesn't vaporize haulers left-right-and-center from magma exposure, then this may well be a really, really desirable solution, especially given than I typically pump the magma out of the reservoir anyway...
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Crashmaster

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2011, 12:37:06 am »

I like to shut three migrants with no stone detailing skill in a three-wide tunnel behind floodgates and have all three carve fortifications into the magma pipe. I just savecum after I figure out how many frames to delay each one so they'll all finish within 20 frames of each other.

Nameless Archon

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2011, 03:47:30 pm »

Somewhat delayed (sorry about the /necro) but I found a note I'd made myself to revisit this thread with my results. I employed jhxmt's method and found it to be both effective and safer than I'd expected. I'll be employing this method in my next fort to provide the magma source for my obsidian farm.

Thanks for the discussion, guys!
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DaJonkel

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Re: Getting magma out of a volcano
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2011, 09:34:57 pm »

I want to add my technique to this thread as well since it's 100% safe
S= Stone
L= Lava/Magma
_=ground
X= tile to be channeled from above
 = open space

SSSSSSSSSS
      _______
SSSLLXLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
SSSLLSLLLLS
LLLLLLSLLLLS
SSSSSSLLLLS

Basically you just make downstairs right next to and at the top most level of the vulcano, make up/down stairs till the level you want lava/magma with an upstair finishing off your magma pipe.  Then just channel, connecting your pipe to the vulcano, no risk to your dwarfs ever.
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