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[RAKninja]

as you guessed, i'm sticking more to vanilla.  i've discovered i cannot really have a "secondary monarch" with the variable positions.  it seems that the variable position overrides any you define for the responsibilities assigned.  this means that if i wanted an immigratable monarch, i'd have to define all the civ-level positions.  i'm not sure i could do this and preserve the vanilla-flavor of the goblins, so that idea's scrapped till such a time as the way civs are moddable changes.  next update may bring some options considering the way a lot of it is supposed to work.

i think i'm kind of at an impasse.  i've got a few changes and fixes to upload, but nothing major.  made a few confirmations about the way things work.  i'll get around to uploading it in the next few days.

[RAKninja]

i never updated, and my hard drives crashed.  forgot what changes i did make...  most likely stuff with pet tags.  i think i had forgotten to browse through all of the raws and mark all appropriate creatures.

as there has not been any interest in this project in my absence, i'll refrain from uploading any changes...

you see, i lost my dwarf fort in the same crash, and i must rebuild it to at least be self sustaining before i feel comfortable enough to mod.  rusty and out of practice, yo.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

As to help with the user-friendlyiness my !!SCIENCE!! has shown that if a civ has [PERMITTED_JOB:TRAPPER][PERMITTED_JOB:ANIMAL_DISSECTOR] and you remove [NOT_BUTCHERABLE] from rats and other vermin. even with [CARNIVORE] or [BONECARN] they will survive world gen as they can catch rats and "other butcherable vermin" and get their meat/bones to eat.

Thus no need to go back and forth adding/removing [NO_EAT] and [NO_DRINK]? (I've never seen anyone die of thirst in World Gen/Legends)
And the "Needs Alcohol to get through the working day" seems to be an addiction/cure from haunting war memories. My mod has humans and only a few acually needed alcohol. [ALCOHOL_DEPENDANT] just automatically makes them addicted kinda like [SWIMS_INNATE] makes the creature automatically a professional swimmer (without saying they are legendary)

[RAKninja]

the problem with making butcherable vermin is...well... butcherable vermin.  vermin are vermin because there is really no use for them, if they had a use, they would not be vermin.  overall, gameplay is less changed messing with [NO_EAT] and [NO_DRINK], in my opinion.

i dont think i've seen anyone die of thirst in worldgen either, but i would rather be safe than sorry.

my own science had revealed that not every goblin was alcohol dependent.  twas just the one or two i was watching closely at the time....  i think it was one of my squad captains.  not every veteran military goblin had alcohol dependence.  seems to be a random characteristic.  i am not sure i noticed them working slower without booze.  i'm fairly certain i mentioned that somewhere in here.

goblins do work wonderfully with [NO_EAT] and [NO_DRINK] removed.  i am 98% sure they will eat cooked meals.  i think the problem was getting them to actually eat prepared food all of the time, rather than just picking up a random bit of meat or corpse.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

Ah but how many people acaully catch vermin I normally just let cats kill them. I wonder if you add [NO_MEAT] to the butcherable vermin they will still count as food to [CARNIVORE]/[BONECARN] civs...

[RAKninja]

i am not sure, but i do not think so.... bonecarn can eat bones...  and corpses, but i am unsure if that extends to carnivore.  sometimes it's tough to figure out where carnivore ends and bonecarn begins.

but back to why i dont think so, vermin corpses are a different item type than regular corpses, if memory serves.  only !!SCIENCE!! can tell us for sure.

and again, it is much easier just giving goblins no eat and drink tags for worldgen than it is to change even two or three of the many vermin types available in such a manner.  less effects on the actual game as well.  bad enough you can buy a barrel of butterfly eyes, dont need actual butterflies clogging up the butcher's shop producing such things.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

Yes bad enough we can buy/embark with vermin parts, but a vermin corpse cannot be butchered, it has to be captured alive.

And only rats need to be eatible

But this was only a suggestion from my !!SCIENCE!!

[RAKninja]

only rats?  are rats available in every biome?  if not, how does this affect worldgen?  ive noticed that goblins often set up in areas quite inhospitable to the other races, like evil tundras, for example.  in your method, have you seen any settlement starve under your method?

you know what would be ideal?  if i could somehow get goblins to eat friends and foes that fall in combat during worldgen.  and/or have glown lords infect their followers with an "anti-hunger" syndrome.  dont think that last one will work in the current version, heh.

thanks for the suggestions, though.  gets the modding juices flowing again.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

Rats appear in any biome that is NOT_FREEZING

And In my method, Kobolds used to starve in worldgen (didn't bother with the [NO_EAT] method) then once I made rats (and all the vermin in creature_small_mammals) butcherable all of a sudden I have getting kobold theives in my longer world gens. Which stopped starving and begun life ending of old age in legends.

At first I was puzzled, Had a look at kobolds. They still have [BONECARN] like they always have, went to their entity no [INDOOR/OUTDOOR_FARMING] (wouldnt matter anyways if they had [BONECARN]) then I saw they had [PERMITTED_JOB:TRAPPER] and [PERMITTED_JOB:ANIMAL_DISSECTOR] since those two jobs are basically useless in vanilla (all small animals are [NOT_BUTCHERABLE]) I didn't know why they where surviving until I remembered I removed [NOT_BUTCHERABLE] from various vermin that made sense (lizards, rats, etc...) so that means Kobolds now catch vermin, dissect/butcher them. And get their fill. Now since [BONECARN] just means they only eat bones right? I think worldgen doesn't look at the fact it's a vermin so it still produces bones for kobolds to eat (In fortress mode they are too small to produce bones)

EDIT:
if they still starve during worldgen even after you make these changes then I'm confused on how my kobolds are surviving.

[RAKninja]

my understanding is that bonecarn allows the consumption of bones, and also implies a carnivore tag.  because of default goblin ethics, sieges and ambushes are a very good source of food.

goblins, by default, have farming....  thing is, no seeds are embarkable, you have to harvest them.  because of [BABYSNATCHER] no other races will trade without editing either those races, or removing babysnatcher, so any farming must be done by a player who has gathered plants.  i think this may be because of the [USE_EVIL_PLANT] tag, and the lack of such plants.

by making vermin butcherable and giving kobolds the butcher skill, i think what is happening is that they are getting meat from the vermin.  this is just speculation, as i have not tested this method, and probably will not till i have a dwarven fort built up enough to drive me to playing goblins again.

rats spawning in any non-freezing is indeed a problem, however, as goblins seem to home in on freezing biomes in which to build their towers.  might just be a quirk of the RNG, but in all of the worlds i have genned, i see the highest concentration of goblins in freezing biomes.  this my e because of the competition for more fertile land between the other races, and goblins having nearly no competition for freezing and evil biomes.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

You can then instead make two-horned rino lizards butcherable, I think they show up everywhere.

My world gens I have at least a few goblin towers in the middle of the map, and kobolds, well they pick any cave thats not freezing so maybe thats why they are content with rats, as they only live where rats are.

[RAKninja]

updating for the latest version.  trying some new things...

for one, i moved goblins from dark fortresses to caves.... so settlements actually show up ingame.  they still build tunnels and roads, so finding them shouldent be too hard.

i'm going to test humans requiring food.... hopefully they dont starve to death like last version.  as gobbos are no eat and drink officially now, i reccomend keeping them like that for worldgen, but removing the tag after, to keep both fortress and adventure mode FUN.

going through the raws now to add [PET] to appropriate creatures.

also, with vampires around, goblins now have  justice nobles.  an "enforcer", who should do very little, considering goblin ethics, and an executioner, who should wield an axe and allow you to deal with pesky vampires.

edit, new version up, see link in sig or first page for download.

[RAKninja]

a cursory look at legends for my newest generated goblin fortress world shows that no one really starves in goblin sites.  this is good.

the goblins have murdererd most of the escaped from the circus clowns running around in worldgen.

elves have a nasty habit of kicking goblin ass in worldgen.  i may have to tone down their birthrate.

goblins dont seem to have any problem living in caves.  it seems that goblin leaders will actually go on animal taming journeys more often, though this could be a feature of the new version.

goblins do not seem to be abducted by night creatures.

only goblin bandits living under human towns seem to get cursed for vampirism and werebeastary.

goblins do not become necomancers, as they are never obscessing over their own mortality.  on the other hand, snatched children of humans and dwarves can become necros in a goblin society.  they can even rise to positions of power.

unfortunately, having a necro law-giver does not help as well in worldgen battles as does having a pet necromancer help ingame.  hopefully toady will change this at some point.

goblin (and other) criminals dont seem to do much in worldgen.

i shall finish looking at legends, then try out some adventurers and then a fortress to see how things work.  any !!science!! or other information pertaining to this mod will be appreciated.

[astianax]

i saw someone else talking about goblin/elven necromancers. neither race will get them in vanilla because they're both technically immortal/ageless, so don't care about finding ways to cheat death. they'd posted their findings on it, and what all to add to the races (and kobolds) to get necromancers for all five vanilla races. was useful info, even if one isn't planning on altering the races for it

as for the kidnapped dwarves/humans becoming necromancers and having positions of power, are you sure they *stay* with the civ after becoming such? what i'm thinking is happening is the old legends glitch of once a person becomes a night creature (or, now, a necromancer), then suddenly *all* references of them say they're one. sadly, the easiest way to check is to find a 'human necromancer general' or such in the civ details, then look him up in units details and see if stayed with the goblins or moved to a necro tower. sadly, i'm sure they went to a necro tower. it'd be *great* if they stuck with a civ, though...and goblins are the best option for it

also, your info on goblin vampires/werebeasts explains the one random goblin vampire i saw. nice sleuthery there.

double also, i'm actually kinda tired of seeing goblins (and lizardmen in the mod i use...) murdering all the escaped demons. i want those guys to keep ruling 'til they visit me, dagnabbit

[RAKninja]

i am pretty sure the dwarf necro that was lawgiver was a necro before being lawgiver.  i say this because he was killed by elves during a battle....  i dont see how he could then leave the goblin civ and become a necromancer after being killed (and eaten).  i will look him up specifically in just a minute and edit this post with more information.

i also have read about the "immortal means no necromancy" thing.  i do not plan on making goblins mortal though.

digging into legends now...

oh, i see now....  he didnt die, he fled.  then became a necro and wrote books for the next 100 years.

i found a bit of stangeness in adventure mode....  a keep was manned by nothing but naked human wrestlers.

ive been looking for a goblin site, but it is tough to find them, being caves now.  it does not help that the elves have taken so much territory.   perhaps next world will not have as much savagery, and therefore less giant dingos to eat my goblin's snatched babies.  no, i'm not exaggerating.  the blasted elves have been doing that.