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Author Topic: The Generic Computer Advice Thread  (Read 492868 times)

LordBaal

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4845 on: March 27, 2022, 01:02:33 pm »

Take it to a shop or someone that knows soldiering.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Starver

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4846 on: March 27, 2022, 03:42:13 pm »

I actually can't quite work out what I'm looking at there. That's not mini flames, is it? That wouldn't be good, so I'm sure that's just an optical illusion due to you not having a macro-focus on whatever took the picture[1]. Really, if that's actual fire then unplug it and don't power it up unless you actually get someone who absolutely insists that you show them the "magic blue smoke yellow flames" escaping before they'll even give you an opinion. Which might be fun for them, but not helpful.

Though the colouring of the solder-blob to the right and slightly beyond the <whatever> has signs of overheating, if that's not a reflection of the main 'feature'. But discolouration means heat running through the solder. Meaning either overvoltage coming from some other place, that needs fixing, or over-resistance in this one, which also would need fixing. Maybe both, the one causing the other. And once you start getting PCB material contaminating the solder then you've got sufficient trouble.

Though I'm confused by overheating causing boot-up problems (by preference). That's usually the time when the system can get by without going all magma-flood on you (assuming you don't have a tardy cooling system and it's not so much on the edge that the initial spark of power isn't already in danger of vaporising some link or other), after which any failings in the system (null-points in the air-circulation, maybe) or excessive loading of a component (some peskily overused UART bus/whatever) creates anomolies.



...while I was carefully pondering this question and composing my (probably useless) reply.

Take it to a shop or someone that knows soldiering.
Well, you seem to have worked out more than I have. I am wondering what you need military personel for, though. ;)



[1] The good news is that the out-of-focus capacitor top nearer the camera looks Ok, not 'popped', from how the 'safety scoring' of the top is still a regular cross and not distorted. That's always something I look at, if I can, as it seems to be my number-one self-solvable fault that I can detect. Well, it was before Maplin went bust, and I had to try to source capacitors at outlets that I wasn't quite as sure about - or even fins a mom'n'pop alladin's cave component store.
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LordBaal

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4847 on: March 27, 2022, 04:02:32 pm »

It looks like oxide. You'll need to replace the condenser and clean any oxide. If this was moisture then other components migth be in similar conditions.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

dragdeler

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4848 on: March 27, 2022, 06:40:34 pm »

Sorry it's difficult to access/see.

You think the cap isn't burst? I wasn't sure, might just be the glue that got ugly... but there is one or two tinyboys around the cap, that have same'ish brown... It's like the flux used from industrial soldering that got too hot, the brown spots, isnt it?
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Starver

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4849 on: March 27, 2022, 07:09:23 pm »

As far as I was concerned, the cap of the cap' is designed to split'n'spill, and it hasn't done that (at the visible end, which 8s where I'd expect it to blow and/or puff-up) and rarely have I seen the 'sides' of the capacitor casing puncture, without mechanical damage from the outside that really is down to being specifically attacked with something  But I can't unsee the whatever-it-is as flames.

Could be adhesive gunk. They use it to stop large components (and a capacitor that big - at first I didn't even see it[1], but it's clearly a heavy duty one) moving around. Should be reasonably proof from thermal stress, but deep in the depths of a system there were those signs of overheating in the vicinity, so maybe it's gone beyond typical spec.

From a single difficult-to-focus photo, I'm sure I'm as wrong about other details as I am about the active combustion bit. But I know that any decent computer fixer who can deal with blown caps will also know what it actually is (and have ideas how to proceed to fix it) if they get their pair of Mk1 Eyeballs on the thing.

Which is not to say that you don't have a software/driver problem as well, that has nothing to do with this component issue that you only saw because you poked around inside. There may be other things that a soldering iron can't fix but some (different) remote advice might suffice once you're happy your mobo isn't in danger of exploding... :P

[1] Behind the 'flame', as it was, until I looked more carefully around the image... ;)
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dragdeler

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4850 on: March 27, 2022, 07:24:17 pm »

HDD has been swapped out, ram has been swapped out, battery unplugged... so far every test-scenario managed to invoke the beeping.

I think it's something weird to do with litteral watts, heat or power, because the fan either goes at max when it beeps (in bios, during booting or under load), or when I set the fan to max and trigger the beeping, after I untrigger the beeping it might actually forgot I told it to keep the fans on max.
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wierd

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4851 on: March 27, 2022, 10:18:58 pm »

That is a bog-standard electrolytic capacitor.

The orange crust is the dried out liquid electrolyte from inside the capacitor.  That kind of capacitor is designed with pleated seams in the top, and is meant to pop open if it gets too hot inside (which makes the electrolyte boil/decompose and release gasses, that would otherwise build up pressure until it explodes like a bomb).  Leaking/spewing orange spooge all over is a common problem with electrolytic capacitors, especially on older boards from the late 90s to early 2000s.  See also "Capacitor plague".  That board is probably outside the era when this issue was most prevalent, but any old electrolytic cap is at risk of this happening.

You can buy them by the jillions from places like mouser electronics.

You need the numbers on the side of the can-- the voltage, and the discharge peak in uF. (it can also be pF for very small ones)  Ex-- "5v 2000uF"
Replace it with a like-spec'd lytic cap.

You need to neutralize the spooge that came out, and do it quickly. It is corrosive, and will damage the circuit traces of the motherboard if it gets underneath the solder resist mask. It is an alkaline solution in the capacitor, so use a weak acid, like lemon juice or vinegar.  Let it just sit on top of the spooge mark until it stops making bubbles, wipe it up with distilled water, then dry it with 99% isopropanol.

See also, this lovely video from Adrian's Digital Basement, where he recaps an old macintosh board. (that suffers capacitor plague.) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-1l6zh4K8U

Yours should be easier to do, because the cap is NOT surface mount.

When replacing the capacitor, be sure to annotate on the board the orientation of the marked leg.  Bad Things Happen when you install them backward.


As for what capacitors DO--  They retain a small voltage that is applied, and then release it after the current is stopped.  They are frequently used to buffer and filter power rails to level out voltage levels.  This is especially true with AC power circuits.  (See also, related issue "Rifa Capacitor", which is pretty exclusive to old linear power supplies from the 80s.)

Frequently, similar circuits are used on the motherboard to balance out/filter noise generated by the microwave frequency devices in a motherboard. (such as noise generated by north and south bridge chips) See also, "DC noise filter circuit"  These are especially common on the 5v power rail that supplies power to the card slots on motherboards, and they are typically situated very near the ATX power input connector.  they are comprised, usually, of a beefy 5v electrolytic capacitor and an inductor. 

« Last Edit: March 27, 2022, 10:50:10 pm by wierd »
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Ziusudra

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4852 on: March 28, 2022, 03:26:00 am »

Except capacitor plaque comes out the end cap not the side, and that end cap is not bulging at all. That looks to me an adhesive used to secure capacitors when installed sideways like that one is.
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wierd

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4853 on: March 28, 2022, 03:30:55 am »

No, that is totally orange spooge.

The top is **NOT** the only place it can leak out.  It can also leak out around the legs, then pool on the underside of the cap.

See these ones-- leaking around the legs.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2022, 03:46:31 am by wierd »
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Ziusudra

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4854 on: March 28, 2022, 03:45:31 am »

I get an error for that link.

The entire point of the grooves is to be the weakest point of the surface so that any pressure inside the cap will be released slowly rather than the thing exploding.

And just look at the way it is smeared on the capacitor - I really don't think that is a leak.
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wierd

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4855 on: March 28, 2022, 03:47:07 am »

(mutters about HTTPS not likeing hotlinking... changes link to HTTP, forcing the browser to handshake like it should do anyway.)

Try it now.


Again, YES-- the pleats in the top of the cap are intended to release internal pressure, and do so safely.

They dont always work.  Spooge on the bottoms of otherwise pristine looking caps, is very common.
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dragdeler

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4856 on: March 28, 2022, 04:05:49 am »

I never said it because it seemed silly, but I did have entry level college courses about electronics, and had a vague definition of capacitors, this is probably not gonna strengthen my case either but...


That cap died, when for once instead of unplugging the psu from the wall, turning off the power on the wall, or unplugging the psu laptop side... The PSU was disconnected from the wall, but not the laptop, when a friend came over and needed the space. I swear the beeping started after that. As I said I'm probably not making my case any stronger but I suspected allready there might not entirely passive elements in both the laptop and the psu that caused this.
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Ziusudra

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4857 on: March 28, 2022, 05:09:36 am »

That cap died, when for once instead of unplugging the psu from the wall, turning off the power on the wall, or unplugging the psu laptop side... The PSU was disconnected from the wall, but not the laptop, when a friend came over and needed the space. I swear the beeping started after that. As I said I'm probably not making my case any stronger but I suspected allready there might not entirely passive elements in both the laptop and the psu that caused this.
Doing that would not cause that kind of damage or any kind of damage. It's no different than if the power went out.

And I took enough electronics courses that there's a associates electronics engineering diploma in a box somewhere, though that was redacted years ago.
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dragdeler

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4858 on: March 28, 2022, 06:56:09 am »

shouldn't wouldn't couldn't

i quit after half a year, but i've done enough practical exercices with old material that was in classroom closets since half a generation or more,  to know that "shouldn't" isn't that uncommon...  then they shrug at you while you triple and quadruple check your wiring on your scored work.... and in the end it turns out half of their 74xx chips are just broken and the game was actually to compete with your classmates for working shit -.-...
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wierd

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Re: The Generic Computer Advice Thread
« Reply #4859 on: March 28, 2022, 05:32:15 pm »

any easy test to see if it is glue or not--

Lightly moisten a cotton swab, and wipe it against the offending area.  if orange spooge gets picked up on the swab, you have a failed cap.  If it does not, and is not bothered by the moistened swab at all, it is very ugly adhesive.

(adhesive might dissolve in isopropanol, so use distilled water on the swab)
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