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[anubite]

Toady has plans to expand magic's role in the game, at some point. I'd like to suggest a few things:

1. Should be something completely optional and in the options to turn off.
2. Dwarves should be /rarely/ capable of magic. Consider them attuned to the earth and not to the spirits, however, magical dwarves can exist, though they are rare.
3. Casting simple spells should consume something, such as magic dust, or a specially crafted rune. Complicated spells should require multiple spell casters assisting (especially summonings or undeath magics).
4. Magic, its strength, its prevalence, and its use, should all be handled by world generation. IE, one world might be high in magical use, with many spellcasters abound. One world could be rare in them. One world could be prevalent in spellcasters of water, fire and death magic, and low in holy spell casters, or somesuch.
A) There should be schools or organizations for human/elf societies that regulate magical instruction and use, monsters should form cults or small societies of the magically adept, except in the case of lone, powerful mages

[Hitty40]

Toady has plans to expand magic's role in the game, at some point. I'd like to suggest a few things:

1. Should be something completely optional and in the options to turn off.
2. Dwarves should be /rarely/ capable of magic. Consider them attuned to the earth and not to the spirits, however, magical dwarves can exist, though they are rare.
3. Casting simple spells should consume something, such as magic dust, or a specially crafted rune. Complicated spells should require multiple spell casters assisting (especially summonings or undeath magics).
4. Magic, its strength, its prevalence, and its use, should all be handled by world generation. IE, one world might be high in magical use, with many spellcasters abound. One world could be rare in them. One world could be prevalent in spellcasters of water, fire and death magic, and low in holy spell casters, or somesuch.
A) There should be schools or organizations for human/elf societies that regulate magical instruction and use, monsters should form cults or small societies of the magically adept, except in the case of lone, powerful mages

1. I like this idea.

2. Instead of being rare, it should become more common for Dwarves to use magic if your leader(s) were magic users, and if a non-magic leader takes power, then you will find less magic dwarves.

3. And if a spell requires using an item, it should be that you read a scroll/book/tome so that spell requires less use of said item.

4. Good idea, and there should also be a combat... circle? Double triangle? so that one spell is more powerful againest the other, like Holy magic would be more powerful againest Death magic, but Death magic would be more powerful than Nature magic. Also, all elves will start out with Nature since they are tree hippies.

[peskyninja]

I disagree with using items to cast spells it just fit in some cases like casting items, but I prefer something more spiritual,for example one casts a fireball he will get tired and depending of the force of the spell, he can even faint,or he won't be able to use any more spells for that day these kinds of stuff.

[Zoomulator]

Generally, I really dislike magic in games. It's usually a bad fix for broken game rules and mechanics, or a good breaker of them.
In my eyes, it's also generally an excuse to patch up any plot holes in a story. "They used magic", is just... lame, and uncreative.
It's been done so many times and it's never uniquely implemented. It's always always always so damn common.
Every other peasant knows how to throw a fireball or lay hands to heal folks. Very subtle...

Only way I'd like to see magic in DF is if it's so rare the wiki barely gets info for it. It got to be damn difficult to get going with it.
The planets must align, the conjurer must have a special very rare trait and a fantastically unusual material must be used to start channeling the forces, or what ever.
Story wise, magic has to be mystical. Any encounter with magic should be a notable event for the player.
The magic shouldn't even be very strong most of the time. Healing shouldn't be an instant cure-all flash: it should merely help the recovery process.
Little boosts here and there on occasion. It should be doubtful that the magic even helps at all or if it's just a waste of time.

99.999% of the time, magic should be so rare or unremarkable that you barely even notice it. As for the rest of the 0.001%, magic should be awesome.

Basically what I'm saying is that any magical powers should be incredibly hard earned.

[IT 000]

Magic should always be extremely helpful for short term problems, but should turn into a cauldron of Fun after a few seasons. You could cast a spell that would make every dwarf extremely happy, but they would be completely passive when in combat. You could summon a bunch of & to deal with the goblin siege, but they'll constantly throw parties and bring nothing to the potluck. As far as healing magic goes it shouldn't 'heal' it should dull the pain, this would mean a dwarf with a broken leg would be able to walk again, but it would only make things worse when the magic wears off.

The magic casting dwarf should also get some drawback. For example every time he casts a spell he suddenly gets sleepy, thirsty, and hungrier. Eventually he could be incapacitated from the battlefield or from his casting jobs.

While magic migrants should be indeed rare, it should be guaranteed that you get on in mid->late game. Perhaps once you get a baron, the king sends a mage. He'll keep replacing the mage that got killed, and I suppose once you upgrade to a county you are given another mage which allows you to cast much more powerful (but much more fun) spells.

[peskyninja]

i wondering here if the player will select wich spell and when it will be casted or will be automatic like the marksdorfs fire?

[Notanome]

As for dwarfs: I gotta say I'm kind of a fan of runes, as that would go along with norse mythology and the idea of magic infused within the very stone is very dwarfish. Would go hand in hand with how attuned they are.

As for magic in general, it is an area one must tread extremely carefully, otherwise you break things. I enjoyed the system in warhammer 40k rpg - it always had a chance to backlash and the magic itself, while effective, was not "OMG I PWN EVERYONE!".

[tmrt]

Magic should always be extremely helpful for short term problems, but should turn into a cauldron of Fun after a few seasons. You could cast a spell that would make every dwarf extremely happy, but they would be completely passive when in combat. You could summon a bunch of & to deal with the goblin siege, but they'll constantly throw parties and bring nothing to the potluck. As far as healing magic goes it shouldn't 'heal' it should dull the pain, this would mean a dwarf with a broken leg would be able to walk again, but it would only make things worse when the magic wears off.

The magic casting dwarf should also get some drawback. For example every time he casts a spell he suddenly gets sleepy, thirsty, and hungrier. Eventually he could be incapacitated from the battlefield or from his casting jobs.

While magic migrants should be indeed rare, it should be guaranteed that you get on in mid->late game. Perhaps once you get a baron, the king sends a mage. He'll keep replacing the mage that got killed, and I suppose once you upgrade to a county you are given another mage which allows you to cast much more powerful (but much more fun) spells.

There might exist varying kinds of said "magic nobles" as well, like high priest of particular religion who will arrive if at least half of citizens is worshiping a single god. Or a demonologist which comes only if the player had unleashed HFS and slain at least several HFS inhabitants. And priest would require candles made from wax for his rituals, while demonologist may demand heaps of brimstone. Or wax candles dyed with sliver dye. Or even an adamantine chain which will allow him to enslave a single HFS.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Or die trying.

[Sevi]

My idea would be:
- add magic nobles that can work useful magic but demand alot
- some dwarves that aren't magic nobles can do magic, but they become crazy from using it too much
- add different types of m-nobles:
--alchemists mix stuff in a laboratory that has to be built for them and can for example turn useless minerals into rarer ones for a certain price
--mages are assigned to their own library with bookshelves, books must be bought from merchants. If for example a mage has a book called "==Turn vermin to stone==" in his assigned library, he will use this spell when fighting against vermin. Another idea would be to add certain runes to a book's title, so if he had a book called "w=Turn lava to salt=w" he would need a W-rune, crafted by a runemaker in a rune workshop,to use this spell.
--runemakers would make runes, which have a quality scale like other items, which affects the spells caused with them

Example for usage:
-Player has bought a spellbook called "§=Freeze Lake=§"
-He stores it in a library and assigns the library to a noble mage
-He builds a rune-workshop and assigns the task to make §-runes
-He sees that he needs more gold for this
-His map has no gold, so he assigns the alchemist to make gold from salt, while assigning miners to mine tons of salt
-Player has §-runes, and can assign the mage to freeze a lake
-...
-profit

[smasher89]

Magic should always be extremely helpful for short term problems, but should turn into a cauldron of Fun after a few seasons. You could cast a spell that would make every dwarf extremely happy, but they would be completely passive when in combat. You could summon a bunch of & to deal with the goblin siege, but they'll constantly throw parties and bring nothing to the potluck. As far as healing magic goes it shouldn't 'heal' it should dull the pain, this would mean a dwarf with a broken leg would be able to walk again, but it would only make things worse when the magic wears off.

The magic casting dwarf should also get some drawback. For example every time he casts a spell he suddenly gets sleepy, thirsty, and hungrier. Eventually he could be incapacitated from the battlefield or from his casting jobs.

While magic migrants should be indeed rare, it should be guaranteed that you get on in mid->late game. Perhaps once you get a baron, the king sends a mage. He'll keep replacing the mage that got killed, and I suppose once you upgrade to a county you are given another mage which allows you to cast much more powerful (but much more fun) spells.

 Perhaps, summonings? I mean, some short of alchemy, not like in fullmetal alchemist series, but I mean, equivalent exchange? in the way that if you are enought stupid or desperate to try summoning a dragon or mega critter out in a pinch, you should consume instead of a generic fancy "magic dust" vital or spiritual energy, and if you dont have what it needs to summon such epic creature you shall pay the price of your greed, maybe with more than one of your limbs or organs... I still think that Dwarf fortress universe needs some short of magic, in a way that it can exist in harmony with the real logic of the game, thats why i think of some short of alchemy-magic.

 About the medical use of magic, as you explain it, I completely agree, but perhaps with the use of a mythical sustance which could be manufacturated only by the best alchemist/mages of the times? with the use of things that you could only find in alive beings? perhaps something more than organs and flesh? perhaps something more of what the inteligent beings of the dwarf fortress universe can understand?

 Or you could just have so much magic power that you can just take a stave or spell book, spell some short of mega-shit like and fuck up the entire world...

[m4davis]

for magic what i'am really want is stuff like magical rivers they could be magic cause a legendary stonecrafter died in or alot of blood from him went into it and the chances of the river becoming magic would increase if more of these sorts of things happen
and the effects could be like turning anything that gets submerged into a other material and I also want there to be 2 types of changing materials if you ask someone about surroundings and they mention this river it will say this river turns things to gold if you stick your hand in this your hand will turn to gold and you will not be able to move your hand again now if it says it turns things into living gold then if you stick your hand in it your hand will turn to gold and will be able to move

[IT 000]

i wondering here if the player will select wich spell and when it will be casted or will be automatic like the marksdorfs fire?

Valid point, I would like to see a different 'v' screen called Magic where you can highlight the spells they should cast, some spells will have different reload times so a fireball will launch like marksdwarf bolts while a smoke cloud will be cast but the mage would run away if he wasn't a soldier.

I mean, some short of alchemy, not like in fullmetal alchemist series, but I mean, equivalent exchange? in the way that if you are enought stupid or desperate to try summoning a dragon or mega critter out in a pinch, you should consume instead of a generic fancy "magic dust" vital or spiritual energy, and if you dont have what it needs to summon such epic creature you shall pay the price of your greed, maybe with more than one of your limbs or organs... I still think that Dwarf fortress universe needs some short of magic, in a way that it can exist in harmony with the real logic of the game, thats why i think of some short of alchemy-magic.

Yes, in my opinion alchemy should be in the game, but it should be less magical and more magical chemistry type stuff. It shouldn't be lead to gold but rather 'add this plant juice to your meals and it will act as a hunger suppressant*'. While idle, Alchemists should randomly get 'magical' plants that you could normally not gather, and they should store it in the food pile. They should be set to do not cook/brew and cannot be eaten raw. Likewise they should be moddable.

Alchemists should be able to create specific recipes out of specific creature parts yes, like a fire imp stomach will give you a barrel of fire, or a cave floater will give you a noxious toxin that you can spread on spears (once that's in)

* So it will temporarily stave off hunger but once it wears off the dwarf will be borderline starving

I don't believe there should be mana or magicka or whatever the cool guys are doing, but it should physically stress the dwarves, like fireballs make the dwarf thirsty, but spells should also have a chance of failing (based on skill x base multiplier on the raws) failing to cast a fire spell might cause your hands to blister. Failing a water spell might cause you to summon oil (presumably you'd be summoning water to get rid of fire)

I like the idea of sacrifices, but I'd leave that to the goblins and other macabre civilizations. Organs seem overboard as the body in RL has very few redundant organs.

-----

runes

Personally, I have a different view on runes. Pressing b -> R should bring up a list of runes you can build, they are designated like constructions are. They should be more like magical traps then magical items. When an enemy walks over it and it activates. It shouldn't be the next atom bomb, but simple ones like:

It does very powerful damage but it only effects one person
It does almost no damage but gives you a poison that slowly puts you to sleep
It does a medium amount of damage and spreads it over a small area.
Does no damage, but disorientates over a long distance and causes them to stumble about. Possibly off a cliff.

Once the ruin is done it's done. Overall they should be more effective then traps but it should only have one shot before your mage needs to 'reload' it. I suppose there should be passive ones that function like pressure plates or floodgates.

Runes carved on soil should be very temporary, every step should wipe a little bit of it away. Once it's gone a mage will redraw it. However if the trap is deteriorated enough it might not go off, or it's effect might be nerfed. Runes on constructed or stone surfaces should be nigh permanent. Magma should get rid of them just because it already gets rid of engravings.

[smasher89]

i wondering here if the player will select wich spell and when it will be casted or will be automatic like the marksdorfs fire?

Valid point, I would like to see a different 'v' screen called Magic where you can highlight the spells they should cast, some spells will have different reload times so a fireball will launch like marksdwarf bolts while a smoke cloud will be cast but the mage would run away if he wasn't a soldier.

I mean, some short of alchemy, not like in fullmetal alchemist series, but I mean, equivalent exchange? in the way that if you are enought stupid or desperate to try summoning a dragon or mega critter out in a pinch, you should consume instead of a generic fancy "magic dust" vital or spiritual energy, and if you dont have what it needs to summon such epic creature you shall pay the price of your greed, maybe with more than one of your limbs or organs... I still think that Dwarf fortress universe needs some short of magic, in a way that it can exist in harmony with the real logic of the game, thats why i think of some short of alchemy-magic.

Yes, in my opinion alchemy should be in the game, but it should be less magical and more magical chemistry type stuff. It shouldn't be lead to gold but rather 'add this plant juice to your meals and it will act as a hunger suppressant*'. While idle, Alchemists should randomly get 'magical' plants that you could normally not gather, and they should store it in the food pile. They should be set to do not cook/brew and cannot be eaten raw. Likewise they should be moddable.

Alchemists should be able to create specific recipes out of specific creature parts yes, like a fire imp stomach will give you a barrel of fire, or a cave floater will give you a noxious toxin that you can spread on spears (once that's in)

* So it will temporarily stave off hunger but once it wears off the dwarf will be borderline starving

I don't believe there should be mana or magicka or whatever the cool guys are doing, but it should physically stress the dwarves, like fireballs make the dwarf thirsty, but spells should also have a chance of failing (based on skill x base multiplier on the raws) failing to cast a fire spell might cause your hands to blister. Failing a water spell might cause you to summon oil (presumably you'd be summoning water to get rid of fire)

I like the idea of sacrifices, but I'd leave that to the goblins and other macabre civilizations. Organs seem overboard as the body in RL has very few redundant organs.

-----

runes

Personally, I have a different view on runes. Pressing b -> R should bring up a list of runes you can build, they are designated like constructions are. They should be more like magical traps then magical items. When an enemy walks over it and it activates. It shouldn't be the next atom bomb, but simple ones like:

It does very powerful damage but it only effects one person
It does almost no damage but gives you a poison that slowly puts you to sleep
It does a medium amount of damage and spreads it over a small area.
Does no damage, but disorientates over a long distance and causes them to stumble about. Possibly off a cliff.

Once the ruin is done it's done. Overall they should be more effective then traps but it should only have one shot before your mage needs to 'reload' it. I suppose there should be passive ones that function like pressure plates or floodgates.

Runes carved on soil should be very temporary, every step should wipe a little bit of it away. Once it's gone a mage will redraw it. However if the trap is deteriorated enough it might not go off, or it's effect might be nerfed. Runes on constructed or stone surfaces should be nigh permanent. Magma should get rid of them just because it already gets rid of engravings.

*alchemy

 Good point there, the sacrifices should be for more primitives/barbarians civs, tought if you havent see it in real life, anime series, american comics, hittler, etc... when someone got much power he/she will bable and start playing god... seriously, so maybe humans, elves and dwarfs will also do it in insane/extreme situations? I guess its a possible.

 Maybe alchemy and magical stuff will be mixed into only 1 science/teology/job/position? remeber that toady said that he will implement some short of magic system, but not in that industrial scale? also i guess that artifacts will have to get some short of "soul" "energy" "unknow force" "etc" thing to make them magical?

*runes:

 I agre partially, "runes" (which are better know as some short of magic stone) maybe will be replaced with the magic artifacts things? maybe the "rune" concept that we had will change in DF universe; rune maybe will mean some short of creature or artifact that has that "thing" wich can make them special? definitely they should be placeable in a place to have lots of fun...

[Putnam]

Slaves to Armok chapter 1 had a magic system, which, while fun, was ridiculously broken. It took a very small amount of time and absolutely zero effort to make an enemy's head explode, teleport their brains out of their body, etc.

It did take a damn lot of effort to regrow a pinky, though.

[Zollarr]

Magic should, of course be a difficult thing for anyone to learn or understand. Naturally this should be both in game and out of game.

-I wouldn't necessarily say everyone should have the ability to learn magic, but the few that strive towards learning it should eventually acquire some knowledge in it.That is to say they could have a natural-born ability to use magic, they could be gifted by the gods, a hero could discover an ancient tome in the ruins of a long-lost civilization, they could make a deal with a demon/devil to be given the powers at a price. It can definitely create some interesting circumstances.

-When someone has their first experience with using magic, it should definitely be unstable.This could again create lots of fun and interesting history and situations with the mage-bandits fireball exploding on himself as the adventurer charges at him. Someone attempting to teleport could end up teleporting into HFS being completely surrounding by fun. The unstable and variables of magic should eventually settle down as a person survives through the years as a mage and gains experience as a magic user. Of course those who survive the failures in world-gen and live to be mages would make fearsome opponents and world leaders.

-Magic can also present a change in personality types as well as users continue learning about it. Those who acquire the powers could become more sociopathic, seeking power in whatever ways they can. This can again, lead to interesting circumstances such as mages building and leading armies, undead armies, and of course: Lichdom.

-The available abilities and powers/various types of magic and so on can vary from world to world. There could also come the ability for players to develop their own spells or magic by mixing around and playing with spells in adventure mode. This again can lead to stability issues and lots of fun, but those who have an understanding of what they are doing can succeed where others fail.

-Also, a civilizations leaders who have had bad experiences with magic such as previous raids from bandits or mages, could create laws prohibiting magic. This can again create fun scenarios when someone shoots off a spell in the middle of town, or when a renowned magic user enters a region that has strong laws against the use of magic. This could create political issues with magic, technology, alchemy, and the likes that could intensify the users experience in game.

Just my word.