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Author Topic: Alternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind  (Read 26089 times)

Levi

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2011, 05:39:04 pm »

Hmm, I wonder if you could hack up a NovInt Falcon to move around a cursor and let you feel what is on a tile.  It wouldn't be perfect, but having tactile information along with a sound/voice telling what is on a tile might make it a lot easier to tell what is going on.

http://www.novint.com/

I have one at home and it can do some pretty slick stuff for feeling textures.
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zkline

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2011, 05:44:31 pm »

I'm not sure.  While I think the general idea of tactile information a good one, I would rather not have to spend extra on additional hardware to make it work.  I think speech is the best place to start because it's universal, all computer platforms can speak in some way or another, though the APIs aren't so portable.  I don't mean to come off as ungrateful for the idea, I just don't really think it's as suitable as you guys seem to.  Speech can convey a lot of information, especially when combined with sound. 
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Levi

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2011, 05:49:07 pm »

I'm not sure.  While I think the general idea of tactile information a good one, I would rather not have to spend extra on additional hardware to make it work.  I think speech is the best place to start because it's universal, all computer platforms can speak in some way or another, though the APIs aren't so portable.  I don't mean to come off as ungrateful for the idea, I just don't really think it's as suitable as you guys seem to.  Speech can convey a lot of information, especially when combined with sound.

Well, you WOULD know what would be a good interface for the blind better than I would.   :P 

Its hard for me to imagine what would be a good interface for a game like DF, where you normally need to see a 2d grid.  Transforming a 2d grid into something that can be described efficiently in speech is a hard task.  When I try to imagine it, feeling a 2d map feels more intuitive than hearing it.  But its probably not that great of interpreting the information either.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 05:51:09 pm by Levi »
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zkline

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2011, 05:52:53 pm »

The way we typically handle rogue like games is to move the screen reader's review cursor around the map, getting an idea of its general layout.  Of course, with a game like DF we'd have to do this while paused and with liberal use of the examine command.  Memory helps too.  It's not as important for me to know every grass tile in a given area, just to know in general where the grass is, if that makes sense.
Best,
Zack.
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Jurph

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2011, 08:11:04 pm »

Is there a way to teach your reader some of the symbols?  For instance reading ▼ as "down ramp"? 

Also, I know you're looking for the full DF challenge, but perhaps we can pre-gen some fairly flat worlds for you that can help minimize layer switching.  Worlds with all the basics -- iron ore, flux stone, no aquifer -- so that you can concentrate on the basics of the game. 
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Dreambrother has my original hammer-shaped Great Hall.  Towerweak has taken the idea to the next level.

zkline

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2011, 08:15:28 pm »

Hi,
Certainly, I can set up pronunciations for some of the symbols if it becomes necessary.  As for worlds with all the basics, I'm okay with that, though of course would prefer the full experience if at all possible.  That being said, I'm glad we have some ideas kicking around here.
Best,
Zack.
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Niccolo

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2011, 10:11:28 pm »

Hi,
Certainly, I can set up pronunciations for some of the symbols if it becomes necessary.  As for worlds with all the basics, I'm okay with that, though of course would prefer the full experience if at all possible.  That being said, I'm glad we have some ideas kicking around here.
Best,
Zack.

The idea behind starting with the basics is to get you used to the concepts first. Since (as far as I can tell) you are literally going to have to read the entire screen constantly rather than being able to tell at a glance what's going on, it's better to practice on some easier worlds first.

Don't worry, the more impressive worlds will come with time!
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What's wrong with using magma? That's almost always the easiest method.
I have issues channeling it properly to do that method. I end up flooding the fortress with magma.
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zkline

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2011, 10:22:01 pm »

Fair enough, and I'm certainly willing to work on the basics first before graduating to something more complicated.  A useable interface hack is probably a good beginning, though.  :)
Best and thanks,
Zack.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 10:23:52 pm by zkline »
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Symbiode

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2011, 01:55:45 am »

zkline, I sent you a PM regarding this.
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simonthedwarf

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2011, 02:33:12 am »

I hope zack gets help and that his fortresses gets posted. I was !Touched! by reading this thread. Zack's approach to DF would be the ultimate trip, because DF is so immensily detailed. His "view" and contact with the world would be so direct and up for his imagination to seize control of.

I was moved by this thread! I wish you luck, zack

[IN_TEARS]
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zkline

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2011, 09:23:00 am »

Thank you all so much for the encouragement.  I appreciate it, and am hopeful that I will soon be able to post fortresses for you all to marvel at.  :) Symbiode, thank you for the PM.  I read it and look forward to talking soon.  Let's get this show on the road.
Best,
Zack.
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Jurph

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2011, 01:03:27 pm »

I can set up pronunciations for some of the symbols if it becomes necessary.

Zack, you might want to look at the DF wiki for information on which symbols you can unambiguously interpret.  If your interpreter can tell you color and shape at the same time you will be well on your way.

Inside the spoiler link below, you can find an INIT.TXT file that is tweaked a little bit for pure text output.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And in this next spoiler box, find a D_INIT file.  I'm not sure what to do about sky, but we could change the sky character from ▓ to some other character, which you could interpret as the word "sky".  I turned off varied ground tiles as well so that it will be more uniform.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think modding the language files will take a fairly aggressive search-and-replace, followed by repacking them, but it's probably worth it to get the names right.  In particular we want the word "Urist" to be pronounced correctly.
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Dreambrother has my original hammer-shaped Great Hall.  Towerweak has taken the idea to the next level.

zkline

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2011, 01:54:16 pm »

Hi Jurph,
Thanks for these files.  The problem I have currently is that, apparently, the OS X version as distributed doesn't contain text mode support as advertised.  I get a dialog telling me it is reverting to 2D, which is useless for my screen reader.  the SDL draws the characters directly on screen, which no reader can interpret.  Any Unix or GUI people will understand what i mean. 
So who is responsible for the OS X version?  Is there a way to get it compiled with text mode without having to wait for a new DF release? 
THanks much,
Zack.
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Jurph

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2011, 02:48:59 pm »

Zack,

If there's a rendering mode problem, Baughn might be able to solve it, but any fix that has to be compiled in will be released by Toady One himself.  So unless it's a trivial fix, I suspect you'll need to wait for the next release to solve it.  There are probably some end-runs you could do like running it in Text mode on Linux and then running SSH from your Mac.  Not sure how practical that is; do you or any friends have a Linux box that would be suitable for the purpose?
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Dreambrother has my original hammer-shaped Great Hall.  Towerweak has taken the idea to the next level.

zkline

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Re: ALternative Interfaces, or, DF for the Blind
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2011, 02:54:56 pm »

Hi,
I don't have any Linux boxes currently, though if worst comes to worst i could run a VM and ssh into that, I suppose.  None of my friends have Linux boxes currently either.  I guess I'll have to either go the VM route or wait for the fix.  Hopefully it won't take too long.  In the meantime, I'll play collaboratively and possibly try out DFTerm.
THanks,
Zack
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