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Author Topic: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy  (Read 5564 times)

Dwarven WMD

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2011, 02:31:12 pm »

Double jeopardy means that the same accusation can't be raised against you twice.  It does not mean that you can't be brought back to court.  For instance if major new evidence comes to light, a judge can rule to reopen a case.  If you go out and commit the crime you were originally accused of, double jeopardy don't mean squat.  Double jeopardy is about a practice that happened in many countries when the constitution was being written where if you were found innocent in a trial, they could just come at you again with a new judge and jury.  In the american criminal justice system, this is only permitted in the case of a mistrial, when something was found to be seriously screwed with the original trial like an incompetent defense, a biased judge or misconduct by one of the parties.  But an appeals court is not supposed to retry a case, only judge it's validity.
Of course in the likely scenario of this game, at the appropriate conservative levels they might try to forge new evidence or something so the case can be reopened. I guess it would really depend on the corruption of the justice system. The Conservative agenda isn't corrupt in itself, it's the people that abuse the products of it that make Conservative America corrupt.
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The Scout

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2011, 07:49:37 pm »

Well, here it's if you commit a crime, like murder, and spend the time in jail. If that person isn't dead, or that store not robbed, you can do it and get away.

Actually, no. If you were found not guilty and the person turned up alive, effectively that trial and its verdict just go away, as there was never a murder for you to be acquitted of. If you go and murder that person for real, you can still be arrested and tried.
Well, you have to be found guilty. I guess it really only works for murdering people.
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mainiac

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2011, 08:53:08 pm »

The results of one case in no way dictate the results of any other case.  It does not matter how closely a second case resembles the first one, double jeopardy only applies to the same incident.  You can still be brought up on charges for the same crime, so long as it is a substantively different occurrence of that crime.  What they charge you with doing on Tuesday has absolutely no bearing on what they can charge you with doing on Wednesday.*  Double Jeopardy protects from one and only one thing: bringing charges a verdict has already been made and that verdict has not been invalidated.

*unless it's a two day crime of course.
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Stargrasper

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2011, 06:12:37 pm »

The results of one case in no way dictate the results of any other case.  It does not matter how closely a second case resembles the first one, double jeopardy only applies to the same incident.  You can still be brought up on charges for the same crime, so long as it is a substantively different occurrence of that crime.  What they charge you with doing on Tuesday has absolutely no bearing on what they can charge you with doing on Wednesday.*  Double Jeopardy protects from one and only one thing: bringing charges a verdict has already been made and that verdict has not been invalidated.

*unless it's a two day crime of course.

I'm nitpicking, but your statement bothers me just a little bit.  If legal precedent is set, the results of one case certainly do affect the result of another.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2011, 12:40:05 am »

There is no double jeopardy in LCS.  Once tried for a crime, it goes away, and the character has to commit new crimes in order to get arrested again.  Anything different is probably a bug.

Precedent isn't created at the trial level, where the case is originally heard and decided.  Therefore, most cases do not relate to one another.

Also note that there is no appealate court in LCS.  Considering that in many (if not all) states that all defendants are entitled to one appeal, this may be the part of the justice system that needs editing.

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Kay12

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2011, 04:48:18 am »

I have been lazy recently and could do something to the justice system. However, I can't just get cracking... there should be some foundation to start on. What new stuff would you exactly want in the justice system? Small stuff I've been planning myself (and wish comments on before I commit them) include...

* Liberals with short rap sheets may be released with a warning or a small fine when they'd otherwise be transferred to court house (chance depending on severity of crime and various laws)
* Jurors and judges are presented as named individuals with political alignments
* Sleepers have a small chance to appear as jurors
* More verbose trial flavor text
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EuchreJack

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2011, 08:52:34 am »

I like the idea of liberals with short raps sheets being released instead of being transfered to the court house.

Naming every juror might be tedious, as the jury process is abstracted.

I like the idea that sleepers have a small chance of being jurors.  After all, everyone gets to serve jury duty, and your sleeper are trying hard to appear as everyone else.

I'd suggest limiting trial flavor text to useful information.  If it doesn't relate to the character, we really don't need to know the exact height of the Judge's bench, or how many recesses the parties take.

As for ideas, I'd suggest implementing the appealate level.  I could advise how this works in the American system. 

Basically, two years after the original case is heard, arguments can be heard as to the validity of the trial, with a very small chance of the case being overturned.  Of course, if a liberal is not in prison two years after their trial, just skip the appeal.
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Kay12

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2011, 10:42:50 am »

Well, currently the trials are fairly boring and short, containing only two strings that always correspond to the same numbers. Adding some details would add depth and feeling but I'll have to see what should be added... nothing like 2 pages of courtroom drama, I assure you.

Appeal courts could be nice, but again, there's a problem that LCS currently "forgets" the crime right after the conviction. Therefore, either the game should be refitted to  remember the crimes or the appeal court should be generalized to work equally on all crimes. Alternatively, by using the length of the remaining sentence, the game could approximate how "serious" the guy inside is.

Aside for technical difficulties, I see appealate level to be a really nice potential addition. Arch Conservative governments could use them in reverse.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2011, 04:30:48 pm »

Actually, it's not as hard as it seems.

In criminal cases, appeals are one-sided.  A criminal case can only be appealed upon a guility verdict.  Idealistically, the outcome of the appeal would not be based upon the severity of the crime.

For implementing appeals, I'd suggest that they are written generically, and are triggered by length of sentence instead of the actual crime, as you suggested.

An appeal should also occur immediately prior to the execution of a liberal.  It would really be dramatic if the game went directly from the failed appeal to the execution.

Finally, as appeals do create precedent, perhaps they have a random chance of shifting the law one step in either direction.  Some text afterwards saying the the case was cited by the Supreme Court, and is now binding, therefore law x changes.  And since your liberal heroes typically lose appeals, this is likely to push the laws towards being more conservative...
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 04:34:00 pm by EuchreJack »
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Kay12

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2011, 03:23:58 am »

I'm starting to like this idea. I'm not very familiar with American justice system though, as I hail from a Liberal European nation, so I'll need some tutoring... what would be the differences between appeals and normal trials?
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EuchreJack

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2011, 11:33:06 am »

Appeals have three judges instead of one, no jury, and the chance of a sleeper being one of the judges would be extremely low.

The majority's decision determines the outcome, and the system favors upholding the lower court's ruling.

Attorney selection could use the same system as for trials.

Let me know any other questions you may have about appeals!
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Kay12

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2011, 01:02:48 pm »

Thanks EJ! So they occur only once, 2 years after the original case or right before the execution? I might get coding this weekend, unless Jon vetoes the idea.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2011, 03:20:35 am »

Both life in prison and a chance of appeal are important parts of the story of a person convicted, and I think a "second chance" of getting your life-sentence founder out a year or two after the fact would be cool.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2011, 01:57:21 pm »

Thanks EJ! So they occur only once, 2 years after the original case or right before the execution? I might get coding this weekend, unless Jon vetoes the idea.

In the US, the first appeal is required by law.  Subsequent appeals are at the discretion of the Court being appealed to.  Hence, most cases only get one appeal, as the courts try to limit themselves to "landmark" cases.

For games terms, I'd suggest limiting it to one appeal per trial.  But, if you want to get crafty, here is the appeal tract for most crimes:

State Trial court->What is represented currently in-game
State Intermediate Appealate court->What I'm suggesting being added
State Highest Appealate court->The highest state appealate court, they hear approximately 5% or less of all cases requested, and they definitely set precedent.  Therefore, some of the times when they hear a case, it changes a law, although they sometimes hear cases to solidify the status quo.
Federal District court-> They hear Consitutional matters on the case only.  They can't create precedent, therefore they never change a law.
Federal Appealate court-> Also hears Consitutional matters, but they can create precedent
Federal Supreme Court->Those nine people that LCS tracks, they always set precedent, they can change laws if they so wish, but they only hear ~100 cases a year.  Good luck, liberal comrade.

Also note that the game clumps both Federal and State crimes together.  For instance, a State court would never hear the charge of Treason: That would be bumped up to the Federal Court.  But I think simply adding an appeal that is discussed generally would be sufficient.

Generally, an appeal takes about 2 years to be heard.  However, in a case where death penalty is the punishment, the appeal needs to be heard prior to the execution, so it is "moved up".

Note that this discrepency in-game does not exist in the real world, as sentences of death usually take two years or more in order to be carried out.
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Neonivek

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Re: Suggestion: Double Jeopardy
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2011, 09:04:24 pm »

Here is the ONLY way to input double Jeapardy into Liberal Crime Squad

It is to somehow exclude it (possibly by laws being passed)

Without that law your character can be re-tried for the same crimes over and over again. (Essentially whenever your Squaddy is put on trial, all previous crimes he was found not guilty with have a chance to be brought forward again)

The best way to learn how Double Jeapardy does NOT work is by watching the movie by the same name.

The worst part? Because believe the movie. (Honestly I have nothing against dumb movies except when they infect people with the stupid)
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