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Author Topic: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It  (Read 51940 times)

Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #630 on: April 09, 2014, 01:13:44 pm »

This sounds like d3 too. You run through a crappy story and then farm monsters to see the numbers on your items grow.

Well, yes. I can't think of a hack'n'slash that ISN'T this. All the Diablos, Torchlights, FATEs, Dungeon Siege 1&2 (never played 3), Titan Quest follow the same pattern. Is there a different title somewhere that I've missed?

Quote
If you thought D2 was the pinnacle of gaming despite its myriad errors and unresolved problems, PoE gets pretty close to that, though the skill tree looked painfully clunky to me, enough to turn me off the game entirely.

Here's the difference. D3 very clearly plots out what you can do, 1 to 70. You've got skills you get at regular intervals, and runes that unlock at regular intervals that modify those skills. Also you get to pick a couple passive abilities. Creating a build is basically a working a jigsaw puzzle using very large pieces. Regardless of how you put them together, the end result pretty much "works." After 70 you get Paragon points to spend as you will, but they represent very slight buffs to core character mechanics, rather than something totally new.

PoE is the opposite. Nothing is mapped out for you, not after the tutorial area. What skills you use, what gems you put in them to alter those skills, where you spend your skill tree points: entirely up to you. D3 has never given me that "Aha!" moment of putting together a build that felt unique. PoE has given me that several times over. If PoE played as fluidly as D3, I probably would never go back to D3. But because PoE plays a little wooden compared to D3 (and because desyncs are frustrating as hell), I feel there's room for both games for me. PoE plays like Diablo 2, has the same sort of gritty aesthetis and has a wealth of customization options. Diablo 3 is D2's prettier, slightly more mindless cousin. Your end game accomplishment in D3 is clicking a mouse button and watching the entire screen fill up with death.

I like the idea of what you're saying, I just haven't gotten the motivation to slog through a huge download and learn a new mechanical system that calls back to an older mechanical system that I wasn't entirely thrilled with in hindsight. I'm pretty sure I would enjoy PoE if I had the time and motivation to dump on figuring it out. I'm just not at that point right now; my free time is either unwinding with pixel violence or brief 1-shot games like FTL.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

miljan

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #631 on: April 09, 2014, 01:14:50 pm »

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The thread for it on this forums should tell you all you need to know. The reaction was something like "omfg this isn't D3 at all! How amazing and magical!" and then the thread died after about 15 pages because the game lacks depth or a soul

Yep that is pretty accurate.

Heh, still has more depth and content than d3 :), witch is funny really as it is cheaper. The thing is, it is closes to d2 than any other arpg out there from gameplay/character customization and loot (not art style).
 
I really hate d3 dumb down character customization and itemization (that is now ok after all the patches).

There are a lot of good arpgs:
-PoE
-Torchlight 2
-Marvel heroes
-Grim Dawn
-Van helsing 1,2
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nenjin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #632 on: April 09, 2014, 01:24:56 pm »

@Darkmere

I probably wouldn't have bothered with PoE if it hadn't been playable long before D3 released, and if D3 hadn't fallen on its face so hard at release.

Also it's quite drab compared to D3, which coming from D3 might be hard to adjust to. I wouldn't blame anyone for not having time for yet another ARPG. But I think if you do make the time, you'll find there's a lot to like about "ye olde mechanics", mostly because they take old D2 mechanics and iterate on them again to add more features to the concept. (So you don't just have potions in your potion belt, potions are actual items with their own stats that aren't "consumed" on use, and there's more types than just the ones that heal you. Yes, there's town portal and scrolls of identify too, but they're basically the pennies of a non-gold economy that also plays into gear customization as well. And yes, there's gem what slot into gear, but several types of gems can interact with each other to radically change how abilities perform.)
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i2amroy

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #633 on: April 09, 2014, 01:38:01 pm »

The big thing in favor of torchlight 2 is that it's moddable though. Sure, the base is pretty bad, but there are a fair handful of mods out there (such as the Synergies mod, which adds a whole new campaign to the game) that remedy a lot of its problems,
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 03:32:14 pm by i2amroy »
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Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #634 on: April 09, 2014, 03:04:14 pm »

Heh, still has more depth and content than d3 :), witch is funny really as it is cheaper. The thing is, it is closes to d2 than any other arpg out there from gameplay/character customization and loot (not art style).
 
I really hate d3 dumb down character customization and itemization (that is now ok after all the patches).

See, this is the main beef I have with the game. TL2 looks shiny and all on the surface, but if you dig into the actual mechanics it mirrors the major downsides of D2's system but manages to get them even worse in some cases.

At the time I played, there were useless skills that underperformed so badly or scaled so poorly that they were basically newbie traps that you couldn't fix once you'd irrevocably spent points in them. Sure, the company added respec potions, but as a mod, so you get flagged as a mod character by using their own fix. Some of them were just broken and didn't scale with anything, so at a certain point your character is fixed in power level regardless of gear, and even if you keep leveling, the skill just stops.

Conversely, some abilities were so overpowered as to be mandatory, like the shield on the engineer that quadrupled your effective health or more (with 100% uptime). You're forced to decide how many points to put into passive abilities instead of more skills you can actively use in a fight, so your points get dumped into boring invisible stuff. Ranged attacks still only reach halfway across the screen. Stat points once again yielded an "optimal" setup, where you put points into X for crit cap and Y for damage, vitality scales so poorly relative to gear that putting a single point into it for anything other than shield block is a complete waste.

 Skills on a point-buy system are the exact same thing as "watching numbers rise on a sheet" except for the breakpoint levels that... you guessed it... pigeonhole builds and lower customization potential.

There's plenty more problems on the list, that's just what I could think of off the top of my head. Never mind widely available and accepted cheat mods making multiplayer boring (oh and multiplayer connections are crap, like 1990's era internet crap). But hey, it's not D3, so it has that going for it, I suppose.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Neonivek

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #635 on: April 09, 2014, 03:58:20 pm »

To me the part of the game that made me completely give up on Path of Exile... was... Electricity damage. Until then the game had a skill factor, after that just throw skill into the toilet you won't be needing it.

Diablo 3 at least took until Hell mode before it started putting huge walls infront of you.

As for Torchlight the issue with the game is simple. Take Diablo 2, boil away the complexity, strip away the aesthetics, and remove the clincher. Why OHHH WHY Torchlight 2 has the same number of classes (when it could have just included the previous ones and lost nothing) is beyond me.

Though between the two, I'd still recommend Path of Exile.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 04:03:49 pm by Neonivek »
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miljan

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #636 on: April 09, 2014, 04:01:18 pm »

Heh, still has more depth and content than d3 :), witch is funny really as it is cheaper. The thing is, it is closes to d2 than any other arpg out there from gameplay/character customization and loot (not art style).
 
I really hate d3 dumb down character customization and itemization (that is now ok after all the patches).

See, this is the main beef I have with the game. TL2 looks shiny and all on the surface, but if you dig into the actual mechanics it mirrors the major downsides of D2's system but manages to get them even worse in some cases.

At the time I played, there were useless skills that underperformed so badly or scaled so poorly that they were basically newbie traps that you couldn't fix once you'd irrevocably spent points in them. Sure, the company added respec potions, but as a mod, so you get flagged as a mod character by using their own fix. Some of them were just broken and didn't scale with anything, so at a certain point your character is fixed in power level regardless of gear, and even if you keep leveling, the skill just stops.

Conversely, some abilities were so overpowered as to be mandatory, like the shield on the engineer that quadrupled your effective health or more (with 100% uptime). You're forced to decide how many points to put into passive abilities instead of more skills you can actively use in a fight, so your points get dumped into boring invisible stuff. Ranged attacks still only reach halfway across the screen. Stat points once again yielded an "optimal" setup, where you put points into X for crit cap and Y for damage, vitality scales so poorly relative to gear that putting a single point into it for anything other than shield block is a complete waste.

 Skills on a point-buy system are the exact same thing as "watching numbers rise on a sheet" except for the breakpoint levels that... you guessed it... pigeonhole builds and lower customization potential.

There's plenty more problems on the list, that's just what I could think of off the top of my head. Never mind widely available and accepted cheat mods making multiplayer boring (oh and multiplayer connections are crap, like 1990's era internet crap). But hey, it's not D3, so it has that going for it, I suppose.
I see from your comments that you do not understand the game that much because there are a lot of wrong and not correct  statements from you

The actual mechanics in its cores are really good, much better than d3 (witch core game mechanics are bad and very simple, but because they are trying to balance the game easier and streamline it). The problem with tl2 skills is they are not balanced all that good, and as they are not interested in MMO type of game balance, they are not fine tuning it and nerfing the shit of things.

But i will tell you this, there are no skills in game that do not work (and all skills scale, there is none that do not scale, the ones with flat dmg scale with level and items). Some are better some not, but depending on type of skills you can scale them with different items (is it directly from weapon dps, or indirectly with special buffs like fire dmg and similar for skills that dont scale with dps). There are OP broking skills and there are some less so.

The thing is I have a choice. Attribute points where you can invest in different builds have a optimal setup, but it depends from build you wanna make not class you take (that is a beauty of it).  Every class depending from what type of build you gonna make will have different attributes that suits him more and where he has the most optimal attribute points spent. Its not perfectly balanced, but its 10 times better than d3 where you dont have any choice,where the core is shallow, and computer think players are dumb as shit and they will fail so it needs to level their character for them.

Same thing is with skill points, one more layer of additional customization that is in player hands, and not automated. Not only that but you can chose to make a 100% passive character, or go for a lot of active ones. Some will be more item depending to make them work some less, but you have it all in your hands

Multiplayer is problematic for some, as there is no secured servers (so you are hosting it on your comp), but thankfully there is no lag if you play alone, no dumb down mechanism because of it, and things like mod that only improve the game, that adds new class, monsters and acts, for free.

Hack looking now, the game is still played, around 1300 people on steam only, a game that did not had any updates for year now, with no secured servers. Shame there will not be a expansion for it, as there are a lot of things they can improve.

But hey, there is a reason why it got so many positive reviews both from the press and the players. And I actually did not talk about most positive things about it, and why I like it more than d3, but it is offtopic, and I do not hate d3. D3 now is a ok game, but that is the problem, its ok, and it is very expensive for it to be only ok when some indy games like PoE or TL2 did so much right, where blizz did so much wrong.

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Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #637 on: April 09, 2014, 04:28:16 pm »

All that's fine, and opinions are pretty great, but it doesn't change the fact that *when I last played TL2* three or more core skills per class were demonstrably broken. As in, the tooltips were wrong, and the skills did not scale as they said they should, period. You could test it out by modding in weapons that had even numbers to scale them, and they just did not scale, at all.

It may have been fixed since then, but there was nothing about the game satisfying enough to make me want to play it again. I'm just not that excited about clicking '+' buttons like most seem to be - even to the point of disregarding the equivalent systems in D3 that let you customize your setup by actually playing the game and getting loot. Some people just like '+' buttons more than me.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

nenjin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #638 on: April 09, 2014, 06:20:02 pm »

I think it's disingenuous to put it like that, but I see where you're coming from.

Diablo 3 starts at 70 (was 60.) IMO. Because it's only fun when:

-You have everything unlocked.
-You have the gear to support what you want to do.
-It's actually hard enough to matter.

Because everything is so metered in D3, it's very easy to walk away with a false impression of the core game, and there's a lot of game to play before you hit the "real game." Compared to systems where you actually level and make decisions, there's a lot more challenge, unexpected challenge and a lot more tangible sense of what you do having an impact in game. Not quite agency, but, "Oh hey, I invested in Dodge and I'm seeing a lot more dodges."

I can see the benefit in both ways of doing it. I play D3 for mindless fun with friends, and sheer numberbation. I play Path of Exile when I want to really play an ARGP.
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Darkmere

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #639 on: April 09, 2014, 11:13:21 pm »

I actually had fun leveling in D3 just because the pressure was off and I could try anything crazy I wanted to, to get a feel for things. I wouldn't really enjoy it again, so I don't play hardcore. That's a big part of my issue with the point-buy skill systems: Once I have invested time to get a character to .... whatever the functional cap is (70 in D3, roughly 35 in D2), I can look at all the options and see these things I want to try out because they sound fun... But I can't do that because my points are already sunk into things and I don't get them back. If I want to try the other setups its time to roll a new character and do the leveling grind again. It always leads me to make a "first-character failure" to try out everything, then scrap it and play what I really want. I just don't have the time or motivation to sink into that kind of thing anymore.

I will say there have been some outstanding point-buy systems, with my personal favorites being Titan Quest and Dungeon Siege 2. I loved the TQ class system, but I never felt truly able to explore it in the depth it offered because I spent so much time grinding up new class combinations because they sounded cool and fun. DS2 was truly enjoyable and challenging to level properly to get the combo you wanted, and felt very rewarding when your crazy setup finally hit the OP mark, but you were locked by stat assignments into the general setup you leveled first... and thus restrictive either via time or stat investments required to progress.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

nenjin

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #640 on: April 09, 2014, 11:22:38 pm »

I think D3 did hit on a good thing, which is the fanbase that remembers D2 is older, has less time and less motivation to grind a single game to perfection. They didn't even get it fully the first time around, as loot 2.0 made Paragon levels account-wide instead of character-specific.

I dunno though. I did 1, maybe 1.5 playthroughs of D2 and I was done. But D2 normal was balanced well enough in the first playthrough that even a poor build could win, and would even make the game more than a little challenging. So those initial playthroughs were as much as I needed.

D3, the initial playthrough is literally just to familiarize yourself with the game. And that I don't like, because then I feel like I'm obligated to play it twice. But that's how Blizzard games roll these days. Everything up to the level cap is just the new player experience, regardless of how long it takes, and the real game starts at the level cap and min/maxing.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
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Sonlirain

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #641 on: April 10, 2014, 04:28:35 am »

Well compared to Titan Quest (hey those games are nearly identical so yeah)Diablo 2 and 3 are very newplayer friendly.
Titan Quest prided itself in its "custom classes" where you could combine 2 talent trees.

The problem was that some of them were pretty darn easy while others were nearly impossible to get anywhere unless you had the perfect build ready and are willing to grind fro items and farm bosses even on normal dificulty.
Why? Because it takes its "final" (at least in vanilla) boss seriously... as a warrior i took him down with minor problems but as a mage... hoooo boy.
Mages don't get much substained DPS and their summons die to his constant AOEs... and unlike in diablo you can't just go to town and back to slowly whittle him down with thrown knives oh noooooo because every visit in town regenerates him to full HP... not that it matters since he has a nearly unavoidable AoE attack that lifedraine everything in the room and most likley heals him to full HP.

I seriously have no clue how mage characters can get past him at all and diablo 3 just avoids this entirely by making normal mode piss easy.
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #642 on: April 10, 2014, 09:02:11 am »

Should i reinstall diablo 3? It is much better than it was at the release?

It's much better, but be careful : it will make you want to buy reaper of souls (it is designed for this exact purpose).
Ehh, i dont want to give them more money.
They should give the dlc free to ppl who bought the game in the first weeks and tried to play with awful half-finished game.
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miljan

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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #643 on: April 10, 2014, 09:42:30 am »

Should i reinstall diablo 3? It is much better than it was at the release?

It's much better, but be careful : it will make you want to buy reaper of souls (it is designed for this exact purpose).
Ehh, i dont want to give them more money.
They should give the dlc free to ppl who bought the game in the first weeks and tried to play with awful half-finished game.

Well thy released free patch for it, but i think the expansion is to expensive for to little it offers (one act that lasts 3- 4h, one class and adventure mod is really to little for 40$)
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Re: Diablo III and Why You Shouldn't Buy It
« Reply #644 on: April 10, 2014, 10:28:58 am »

fwiw so far I've gotten about a week's worth of entertainment out of the new content and expansion. Currently farming for the hellfire ring components.
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