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Author Topic: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords  (Read 12234 times)

franti

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"Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« on: August 16, 2011, 08:56:46 pm »

I'd like to correct Obsidian Shortswords to be sharp, like they realistically would be.
"Fix" is somewhat misleading: I've rarely had a strike with an Obsidian Shortsword that didn't result in shattered bones. They're massively effective, more so than most metal swords, at killing poorly armoured creatures. After one strike, the creature ususally "gives in to pain", and then gets its head caved in.
What would I do to the inorganic_layer entry to modify them to be sharp enough to cut through tissue? From the combat reports, I get the feeling that they don't even go through skin, but simply pulverize anything underneath: Bruised Muscle, Shattered Bone.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2011, 09:00:31 pm »

IIRC the bug is that they have the properties of wood. What is the weight of your obsidian shortswords that you have made?

franti

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2011, 09:02:22 pm »

3, I think.
I'm using 31.18, if it matters.
So, modding Obsidian to hold a sharper edge won't matter?
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C27

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2011, 09:18:01 pm »

You'll probably have to wait for an update that fixes them, if the problem is the stone sword using the wood component instead of the stone component for its edge.
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UristMcHuman

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 09:35:53 pm »

If possible, mod out the requirements for wood in the creation of Obsidian weapons. If it is hard-coded, fix it yourself. I don't know. I've never used an obsidian weapon in practise before, and it's not possible in the arena.




Actually, if used (im)properly, an obsidian sword-club1 like the Aztecs used would lose the chunks of obsidian in the victim. Testing in the TV show Deadliest Warrior when testing the obsidian sword-club against a ballistics gel horse head proved that the weapon lost most of one edge. One of the Zande guys said, "You lost most of your weapon" when it came out. Nonetheless, an obsidian short sword should somehow get fixed in one way or another.

I'm going to have to mod in reactions to make obsidian swords and see what and why the problem is.


1Technically, it was a two-handed sword, because the whole thing was about 4 feet long.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 10:12:24 pm »

3, I think.
I'm using 31.18, if it matters.
So, modding Obsidian to hold a sharper edge won't matter?

31.25
Made a pair of obsidian swords at a test embark. Both weigh <1r
Made a wooden training sword. Weight also <1r

Tested "oaken sword" (not training!) in arena. Wounds are typically cut skin and fat, bruised muscle, bruised-broken bones. Weight <1r

Iron short sword weight 2r. I'm thinking that focusing on the weight is misleading.

Tested a cheat-reaction obsidian short sword in arena, made ONLY of obsidian. It is not sharp, cannot even cut skin, is only a club. Smashes bones very well though. Weight also <1r

Needs more research, or a bug report.

Urist Da Vinci

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2011, 11:19:36 pm »

New results. Modded short swords to be 1000x larger so I could discern the weight differences:

iron: 2355
oak: 210
legit obsidian sword: 801
cheat obsidian sword: 801
granite sword: 801

So the swords are being made of obsidian properly. That means that the obsidian material sucks.

...looks up real-life values for glass...

If you change the entry for obsidian in inorganic_stone_layer.txt to: (I added the SHEAR values)

Code: [Select]
[INORGANIC:OBSIDIAN]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STONE_TEMPLATE]
[MELTING_POINT:13600]
[BOILING_POINT:16000]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:obsidian][DISPLAY_COLOR:0:7:1][TILE:177][LAVA]
[MAX_EDGE:20000]
[SHEAR_YIELD:28000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:28000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0]
[IGNEOUS_EXTRUSIVE]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:3]
[IS_STONE]

the swords became able to cut flesh, but couldn't penetrate copper armor in the arena, even on unconscious opponents. This seems like the desired behaviour.

JoshBrickstien

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2011, 04:19:13 am »

This may be the wrong place to ask, but what ARE obsidian short swords, anyway? Long blades of obsidian? Or something more like Macuahuitl?
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Kay12

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2011, 04:21:34 am »

This may be the wrong place to ask, but what ARE obsidian short swords, anyway? Long blades of obsidian? Or something more like Macuahuitl?

I have the impression they're like Macuahuitl, but it's ambiguous.
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AWdeV

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2011, 04:32:54 am »

I've always figured they're long blades of obsidian because they seem to prefer stabbing with them.
Macuahuitl are awesome though, if a bit overrated.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2011, 09:00:47 am »

This may be the wrong place to ask, but what ARE obsidian short swords, anyway? Long blades of obsidian? Or something more like Macuahuitl?

They are Macuahuitl. A wooden handle with embedded obsidian blades in sawtooth-fashion. That's what the log is for.

It is not ambiguous because I found a quote from Toady stating it as such:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=7554.msg85072#msg85072

Mount

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 01:30:36 pm »

Actually, if used (im)properly, an obsidian sword-club like the Aztecs used would lose the chunks of obsidian in the victim. Testing in the TV show Deadliest Warrior when testing the obsidian sword-club against a ballistics gel horse head proved that the weapon lost most of one edge. One of the Zande guys said, "You lost most of your weapon" when it came out. Nonetheless, an obsidian short sword should somehow get fixed in one way or another.

I thought that was kind of the point, in that it left jagged pieces of sharpened stone IN THE WOUND.

franti

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2011, 03:14:42 pm »

Obsidian Shortswords are large clubs studded with Obsidian.
And I know that on DW, it lost a lot of it's stones in one strike, but he used it like a hacksaw and it DID cut the damn thing in two. On an earlier show, one about ancient weapons, the host cut himself deep enough to require a hospital trip through his Kevlar leggings. Kevlar.

I think that obsidian shortswords should be able to go through copper armour easily, and although Obsidian IS a stone, it's not soft or fragile.
A shard from an OS that breaks off in a would should STAY in that wound, and continue to cause damage to the nearby tissue until it is surgically removed.

But, it IS odd that the obsidian shortsword can't cut through skin, but shatters bones better than an Iron Mace even though it's lighter.
Also, realistically, an OS would weight at least 5lbs.
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HunterCyprus93

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 04:41:51 pm »

Obsidian Shortswords are large clubs studded with Obsidian.
And I know that on DW, it lost a lot of it's stones in one strike, but he used it like a hacksaw and it DID cut the damn thing in two. On an earlier show, one about ancient weapons, the host cut himself deep enough to require a hospital trip through his Kevlar leggings. Kevlar. 

His Kevlar armor would not stop a slow speed slashing weapon like the Macuahuitl if it was not designed with slashing weapons in mind.  The design of ballistic vests/armors use a variety of materials, some soft and some hard.  If there is no fibre or metals woven into the suit, a weapon designed to cut will do so easily.

My 2 cents for the day :D
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Corneria

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Re: "Fixing" Obsidian Shortswords
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 06:10:45 pm »

Obsidian Shortswords are large clubs studded with Obsidian.
And I know that on DW, it lost a lot of it's stones in one strike, but he used it like a hacksaw and it DID cut the damn thing in two. On an earlier show, one about ancient weapons, the host cut himself deep enough to require a hospital trip through his Kevlar leggings. Kevlar. 

His Kevlar armor would not stop a slow speed slashing weapon like the Macuahuitl if it was not designed with slashing weapons in mind.  The design of ballistic vests/armors use a variety of materials, some soft and some hard.  If there is no fibre or metals woven into the suit, a weapon designed to cut will do so easily.

My 2 cents for the day :D
The majority of Kevlar equipment is designed to protect against cuts. The stuff is regularly used as a component in bulletproof equipment. I doubt someone who with that much experience handling weapons would use a vest with no protection against a slashing weapon, let alone while wielding something that was claimed to have cut live horses in half.
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