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Author Topic: Lightspeed Repeater and Lightspeed Computer  (Read 9986 times)

Reelyanoob

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2011, 09:58:52 pm »

Possibly a faster danger room repeater with this?
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Eddren

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2011, 10:03:42 pm »

Actually, I know what this would do.
First, it would bomb your FPS from all the Gobbo pathing Errors.
Then it would slow down goblins (theoretically) down to about .5x speed. Possibly even stop them completely.
Due to the Goblin Pathing style of 'I wanna get there in the shortest possible time,' they'll go for the door when it's open. Flip the switch, and they'll stop for about one turn to re-path; only to discover the door's open again. So they'll path there. But before they can move, it closes, and they have to re-path. Rins&Repeat.
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elf-fondling human

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2011, 10:35:22 pm »

Actually, I know what this would do.
First, it would bomb your FPS from all the Gobbo pathing Errors.
Then it would slow down goblins (theoretically) down to about .5x speed. Possibly even stop them completely.
Due to the Goblin Pathing style of 'I wanna get there in the shortest possible time,' they'll go for the door when it's open. Flip the switch, and they'll stop for about one turn to re-path; only to discover the door's open again. So they'll path there. But before they can move, it closes, and they have to re-path. Rins&Repeat.

Then even the wimpiest marksdwarves can take them out with little to no problem whatsoever.

You could also use this to create impenetrable atom-smashing bridges to block off areas to all but monster-sized invaders.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2011, 10:42:53 pm »

The issue is, this only works with doors and hatches I think.  Other items have a delay attached to them.  If this delay can be worked around using special repeaters, then a danger room that already trains legendary soldiers in a month, could train a soldier in about 30 minutes.

Eddren

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 11:23:52 pm »

I'm thinking that maybe what you'd want is some timed repeaters for that.
And by 'timed,' I mean it does a double-cycle, waits for 100, then does it again.
So the first time, it would just go 'On.'
Then the second time it 'Off, On.'
And then continuously go 'Off, on.' for every 100.
That would work, correct? That would also be as fast as you could possibly do it.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2011, 11:28:37 pm »

For that speed you could use a lever on /R

Eddren

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2011, 11:33:05 pm »

You could, if you really wanted to rely on a DWARF.
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plynxis

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2011, 03:08:50 am »

lol this super fast door thing reminds me of faulty doors in dead space where you have to use stasis to get through :P

i'm up for designing a superdorfputer though - and we can find a use for it later!
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Nil Eyeglazed

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2011, 03:50:24 am »

You are incorrect on doors and hatches. They open AND close instantly when they receive signals. I'm watching a door and hatch in my fort open and close right now.

No.  No, they don't.  I've timed this carefully in previous fortresses.  I've built carefully designed logic engines (such as this one: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=69307.0 ) that rely on doors and hatches taking 100 cycles to close.   Doors and hatches open instantly, but take 100 cycles to close when triggered by a lever or pressure plate.

It's not that the door waits-- it's that the pressure plate waits.  The close signal isn't sent until about 100 ticks later.

By using multiple pressure plates, you can send multiple close signals very quickly.  The only catch is that the close signals will only begin about 100 ticks after the open signals begin.

Quote
But I already knew this design would work only on hatches and doors. Perhaps Toady One will change signal behaviour if he is sufficiently impressed by this, but don't get your hopes up.

It works on other objects, its just that it's limited by their refractory period.  The fastest you can send state changes to a bridge, for instance, is about every 100 ticks-- early state changes will just get ignored.

For instance, spikes SHOULD be workable (untested) by sending opens at 0, 80, 160, 240, 320 and closes at 40, 120, 200, 280, 360, with a 400 tick cycle.  You have to be careful not to send closes at the same time that you send any opens.  Since your closes happen 100 ticks late, you instead have to send opens 100 ticks early.  If your close signals happen exactly 101 ticks after your open signals as is suggested*, you send opens at:

0, 19, 80, 99, 160, 179, 240, 259, 320, 339

So you need 10 4-step repeaters, each carefully delayed.  This pattern wouldn't generate any closes simultaneous with opens.  Build order matters, and spikes act funny the first time they get triggered (work immediately, no delay; not sure if this is per spike or per triggering device), so you might need to start it up a few times before it actually works.

*Not sure if that's what's going on.  It sounds like you've got a repeater that is successfully sending opens every 2 ticks, as demonstrated by a flickering door, meaning it's got to be getting a close signal at tick 1 (or 3, or 5....).  Not what's on your diagram, but then it looks like that's just for demo purposes.

Upload a movie for us!  I love to see stuff like this.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 04:00:16 am by Nil Eyeglazed »
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Alastar

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2011, 04:25:55 am »

As for weaponising this, pulsating pressure seemed to be helpful for pushing things around. I think you wouldn't want it to cycle quite as fast, and there's still the problem with things getting stuck in limbo.
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ThatAussieGuy

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2011, 10:29:54 am »

If we can rig it to a door, why not a floodgate?  Stick that over the front entrance and watch those elves try coming in to complain about your logging...

Sphalerite

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2011, 11:51:59 am »

If we can rig it to a door, why not a floodgate?  Stick that over the front entrance and watch those elves try coming in to complain about your logging...
Floodgates have a 100 cycle delay on opening and closing, so the fastest a floodgate can cycle is every 200 cycles.  It appears that (in the current version) doors, hatches, and gears are the only buildings which can even theoretically respond to a open/close signal every cycle without delay.  Possibly grates and bars too, I don't know if those have a delay or not.
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MagmaMcFry

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater and Lightspeed Computer
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2011, 12:25:52 pm »

I just had another totally awesome idea. Let us assume that it is possible to build a really fast computer in DF under following restrictions and false assumptions:

  • The computer may only use two dimensions, one horizontal and one vertical (let's say Y and Z). The computer must use exactly one layer in the X dimension.
  • Pressure plates all trigger on 7/7 water, but not on 0/7. The computer has to be built under the assumption that the pressure plates send a CLOSE signal immediately after the water on top of them is removed.
  • Water is not allowed to fall, water must move downwards by teleport pipes.
  • All energy powering the computer must pass through a single gear assembly (the "power assembly") that is not used for anything else, and pre-toggled to be disengaged.
  • First the screw pumps, then the gears and axles, then the pressure plates must be built. The gears and axles must be built so that from every screw pump, every possible simple (not self-intersecting) power path to the power assembly must be built in exactly this path's order.
  • Every screw pump must be powered from the top.
  • Information must be stored by having 7/7 tiles of water in some of many places, all called 'info tiles'. Pressure plates may be built only on info tiles. The information must be persistent, that is, if you shut off the power gear, the water must stay where it is.
  • Every info tile must have an open channel into it from above. The info tile and the tile above have to be unable to transport power into the X dimension, Further, the tile above may not be an info tile itself or contain water.

I will assume that building such a computer is possible in DF.
It will not work by itself, though. Now build 199 more computers like this, each offset from the previous one by +1 in Z-direction and by +3 in X-direction. For each computer, the order of construction must be exactly the same as the first computer's order. Be sure to finish every computer before you proceed.
Now pick an info tile and connect it to the corresponding info tiles in the other computers like this:



This simplified side view shows a slice perpendicular to the Y direction. The red lines are the three computers and the cyan tiles and the single blue tile are corresponding copies of an info tile.
For every set of 200 corresponding info tiles, build these pumps from bottom to top and power them all together using a power inlet separate from the computer-controlling power. All power lines powering the info tiles must be built in the same way as the computer's power lines, starting at the pumps and ending at a single global power inlet with a disengaged gear assembly named G.
Now define a single extra info tile in the first computer's plane, separate from the computer logic, and copy it onto the other computer planes. Build the same X-connection setup for this info tile (remember the order: pumps from bottom to top, power lines from pumps to global power inlet). In every one of these tiles, build a pressure plate that triggers on 7/7 water and toggles the corresponding computer's power assembly.

Now setup your 200th computer as if it would work correctly on its own. Put water in the tiles you wish to put them, inputting the program data as you go. The extra info tile is left empty, as are all info tiles in the other computers.
Now put an extra 7/7 of water into the space at the intake tile of the lowest pump of the extra info tile cycle (the bottom white tile in the diagram).

To start the computer, toggle G.
Now the following should happen:
Every tick, the whole information moves from one computer to the next. Because you built the cycle pumps from bottom to top, the water will wait here for a tick. As this computer was powered off for the last 99 steps and has had no water on info tiles for the last 199 ticks, all pressure plates are currently disengaged and all the pumps will have halted. The computer will power on because of the water in the extra info tile cycle. All pressure plates with water will now be triggered, all the pressure plates without water are not triggered. Then the computer calculates a single step and the tick is finished.

As you may have noticed, a single computer will already have to be much larger than the one already built by Jong (see here). Now imagine building 200 of these, without making a single building order mistake or wrong linkup. I suppose you will really need a full 16x16 embark with loads of z-levels to build this monster, along with a few cartloads of patience, some spare fingers and a keyboard of stainless steel, only to have it running at about 2 FPH. But whatever, this is just a proof of concept. Please don't build this.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 12:32:28 pm by MagmaMcFry »
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Excedion

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater and Lightspeed Computer
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2011, 12:40:01 pm »

I'd say this would be a great thing to put in a nobles bedroom if they pissed you off.
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MagmaMcFry

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Re: Lightspeed Repeater and Lightspeed Computer
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2011, 12:47:52 pm »

I'd say this would be a great thing to put in a nobles bedroom if they pissed you off.
What, the computer?
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