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[Eagle of Fire]

How about you just restrict the area and cut the murky pool from being walked on from your dwarves? It's not like murky pools are walkable from the getgo either, you'd need to dig ramps or to dig an access before dwarves can get there.

[Entropy]

All it takes is for a dwarf to take a bucket of water to a wounded friend, but somehow get distracted and just drop the bucket and wander off.  This little bucketful of water dropped in the middle of the hallway makes a single splat of mud.  Some dwarf walks across it and tracks mud across a further half dozen tiles. Any dwarf walking across these newly muddied tiles will create a further half dozen or so tiles, which will in turn make more tiles, etc. etc., in an infinite replication of mud until the entire fortress is forever coated in replicating mud.

Thats all it takes - one dwarf canceling a 'take water' job and there is nothing you can do but watch as your fortress slowly gets encased in mud.

[schm0]

quote:Originally posted by Eagle of Fire:
<STRONG>I already asked several times why people find this annoying, and while I do understand why they might find it annoying, I still don't get it.

Could someone tell me how they manage to get the muddied outside square in the way in the first place? From where is it coming from?

If it's coming from your farms, why don't you simply select "only farmers can farm" from the start so nobody else can get to the farms than the farmers?

From all the fortresses I've run so far since 32a, it never even came close to happen to me...</STRONG>

Drain one lake, and you'll have all the mud you could ever wish for. Even a single mud square can turn into a nightmare. One mud square turns into two, two into four, four into eight, and so on and so on...

quote:Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>I don't care about mud, but for those who do, maybe mud ought to be sort of like water. It has levels from 1 to 7 but doesn't flow anywhere. Every dwarf that steps on mud tracks a level 1 pool of mud in the direction they walk. Mud ought to dry up over time as well.</STRONG>

Uh, that *is* how it works now, except there are no "levels" of mud. A muddied tile technically has a single layer of mud and a dwarf or animal can create up to three freshly spawned mud squares by walking through it. Mud should be like mud. Most people try to avoid walking through mud unless it's unavoidable. But animals could care less.

AGAIN: The only guaranteed way to remove mud entirely from your map is to lock all of your dwarves inside for the winter.

quote:Originally posted by Fedor:
<STRONG>One example:  Dwarves walk on drained/evaporated murky pool and then track mud onto a sand or loam layer.  Everyone refuses to clean it.  The muck spreads faster than the player can build channels and grates to contain it, and even one grid walked on is enough to infect any amount of space, all of which then become new sources of mud.  The entire level becomes messier and messier and any entrances to cleanable rock layers become a permanent source of either more filth or wasted dwarf-hours.</STRONG>

Well, this is partially true. The rock sources will only be cleaned if they are underground. If you have any outdoor rocks that are exposed, they will not be cleaned.

quote:Originally posted by Eagle of Fire:
<STRONG>How about you just restrict the area and cut the murky pool from being walked on from your dwarves? It's not like murky pools are walkable from the getgo either, you'd need to dig ramps or to dig an access before dwarves can get there.</STRONG>

Tried that. There's the pesky problem of animals and pets not following traffic restrictions set up by their masters. And for heavier animals, it seems they track more mud than the dwarves themselves. Animals have a mind of their own.

quote:Originally posted by Entropy:

Your nickname is almost too ironic for this topic.  

[martinuzz]

quote:Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG> Mud ought to dry up over time as well.</STRONG>

Hey! I suddenly sense a way to obtain sand in sandless maps!

[Fedor]

quote:Originally posted by schm0:
<STRONG>Well, this is partially true. The rock sources will only be cleaned if they are underground. If you have any outdoor rocks that are exposed, they will not be cleaned.</STRONG>

As written, it's entirely true.  Why do I know?  Because I saw it happen.  I suspect that there is a misinterpretation happening here, that perhaps my text wasn't clear.  What do you believe I was claiming?

[ December 04, 2007: Message edited by: Fedor ]

[Genuine]

quote:Originally posted by schm0:
<STRONG>

Well, this is partially true. The rock sources will only be cleaned if they are underground. If you have any outdoor rocks that are exposed, they will not be cleaned. </STRONG>

Have you actually gotten dwarves to clean the mud? In my fort currently I tried turning off all jobs on a dwarf except cleaning to try and eliminate it (like many other forts a speck of mud has completely taken it over). However, even though the mud is still indoors, the dwarf refuses to clean any of it and instead just sits around no-jobbing.

[Name Lips]

I prefer playing on mountainous maps with no vegetation or soil. Somehow it just seems "Dwarfy" to me. I insist on a stream so I can get a flood-farm working.

So far I've managed to contain the mud plague by having and entirely separate level of my fortress devoted to farming. The only access to this level is surrounded by grates with channels dug out underneath them. I read once that a channel isn't necessary, just the grate, but I don't want to take chances. There is literally no way for a dwarf to access the ONLY source of mud on the map without passing over the grates. Plus, the grates/channels can be designated for dumping, so I don't have to build a separate garbage dump.

I haven't had a problem with the spilled-bucked scenario yet. Guess I've been lucky. Though it seems odd to me that a spilled bucket of water creates a muddy patch when spilled on smooth stone. When I use a floodgate to muddy a farm, I assume the silt and whatnot is washing in with the river water. How dirty IS this water, if there's a sizable amount of mud (enough to grow a tower cap) in EACH BUCKET that's being taken to a wounded dwarf?

[schm0]

quote:Originally posted by Genuine:
<STRONG>

Have you actually gotten dwarves to clean the mud? In my fort currently I tried turning off all jobs on a dwarf except cleaning to try and eliminate it (like many other forts a speck of mud has completely taken it over). However, even though the mud is still indoors, the dwarf refuses to clean any of it and instead just sits around no-jobbing.</STRONG>

Yes. Set your dwarves to clean only, and muddy some tiles inside your fort. After that, just wait. If you don't believe me, then believe this:

quote:Originally posted by Fedor:
<STRONG>The entire level becomes messier and messier and any entrances to cleanable rock layers become a permanent source of either more filth or wasted dwarf-hours.</STRONG>

That's the statement to which I was referring. If you set a few dwarves to cleaning only, they will start cleaning any muddy, bloody or vomited tiles that are both "inside" and "underground." Therefore, they are not permanent sources of mud. Outside tiles can not be cleaned, and although no muddy tiles are permanent, they persist for three seasons of the year and only dry up in the winter.

[polpoint]

Mud is my friend. You people are just not playing on a map w/ an underground river or something. I need mud everywhere. I flood rooms just so I can get people to track mud around. There is never enough!

[Eagle of Fire]

quote:I haven't had a problem with the spilled-bucked scenario yet. Guess I've been lucky. Though it seems odd to me that a spilled bucket of water creates a muddy patch when spilled on smooth stone.

I got this problem often, and it never resulted in mud.

So, the whole issue is because you have a huge lake you drained and you want to get rid of the outside mud?

Did anyone think about creating a huge roof above the drained lake? Everything under a dwarf made roof become "inside" as far as the description goes...

As for pets... I feel your pain. That's why I never play with pets, for the exception of immigrant pets and my two starting dogs...

They lag the game way too much IMHO.

[schm0]

quote:Originally posted by Eagle of Fire:
<STRONG>
I got this problem often, and it never resulted in mud.

So, the whole issue is because you have a huge lake you drained and you want to get rid of the outside mud?

Did anyone think about creating a huge roof above the drained lake? Everything under a dwarf made roof become "inside" as far as the description goes...

As for pets... I feel your pain. That's why I never play with pets, for the exception of immigrant pets and my two starting dogs...

They lag the game way too much IMHO.</STRONG>

A drained lake tile (indoors or not) is different than a muddy indoor tile.

And what other types of pets would you be referring to?

[Eagle of Fire]

Anything else which dwarves can adopt?

[Nil Eyeglazed]

As far as I can tell, dwarves don't clean mud, blood, vomit, or any other contaminant.

They DO clean missile debris.

A screenshot of a dwarf cleaning is not proof that dwarves clean up mud, unless your fort lacks missile debris.

Contaminated squares are each cleaned once a year.  The problem is that this occurs at different times for each square, and mud is tracked in the meantime.  If you could make your dwarves hibernate through the winter, you'd have no trouble with mud (although you might have some trouble with farm irrigation).

I'm not sure about how outdoors mud is cleaned.  I've never had any outdoor mud.  I don't send my dwarves into murky pools.  I have a grated channel at the entrance of my fort, the entrance to my barracks, and the entrance to my farm.  While I have occasional problems with blood due to goblin thieves dying in high traffic areas, I have no problems with mud.  (I've had problems before.  I don't like uncontrolled mud either.  That's why I didn't even dig my main entrance until I had a grated channel in place.)  I make my dwarves sleep under the stars, so I have no problems with vomit either.

[Karlito]

I have seen them clean blood.

[Fedor]

quote:Originally posted by schm0:
<STRONG>That's the statement to which I was referring. If you set a few dwarves to cleaning only, they will start cleaning any muddy, bloody or vomited tiles that are both "inside" and "underground." Therefore, they are not permanent sources of mud. Outside tiles can not be cleaned, and although no muddy tiles are permanent, they persist for three seasons of the year and only dry up in the winter.</STRONG>

Try asking them to clean mud off sand or loam grids inside (this may not be possible with your current fort, thus the confusion working here).  Many fortress sites have sand/loam layers immediately under the surface.  In my experience so far, dwarves will not clean these areas.  Doesn't matter if the sand/loam is inside or out, only rock and such ever gets cleaned (needs confirmation).