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Author Topic: Cult Mafia - GAME OVER - Psomeone Pscrewed Up  (Read 39979 times)

Max White

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #120 on: September 24, 2011, 02:35:30 am »

Well, for starters, you would get another line of questioning started and get further along than just arguing with me.

What do you mean if I didn't have time? Could you elaborate? Also, do you have anything to say now that I've given you an example of what I was asking for?

It's funny how you call me a dick, but you're the one that starts with the insults. You're really the only person that I have that problem with (parts of your attitude just rub me the wrong way), but despite that I don't want you taking any of it personally. I don't hate you as a person, for all I know you could be a great guy, so sorry if you did actually take anything I said personally (I'm not saying you did).
Yes, I would start another round of questioning. You started it, now I choose when I want to finish it.

What if the town was content to lynch without extensions that day? What if they are even pushing to shorten? What if you didn't have time before the end of the day when your ex-target, now buddy, get lynched?

Also, I'm not calling you a dick because of insults, I'm calling you a dick because your a dick. You refuse to listen to reason for a start. Hell, I'm not sure how to answer your question and suddenly it is because I am withholding information. No, it is because you suck at asking questions and you are a dick. Nothing you say or do ever will change this, even if you buy me chocolates.

Jim Groovester

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #121 on: September 24, 2011, 02:43:08 am »

Anyway, like I said, you always abrasive, but you have different degrees to it. Right now it feels less like your trying to prove a point, and more about telling people they are wrong. There is a difference, and the second one is scummy you.

That's not proof.

Vague impressions of my meta is not proof.

you are a dick.

Yeah, you're a dick, NativeForeigner.

Quit being such a dick, you dick.

Maybe if you weren't such a dick you wouldn't be such a dick.
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You know, it's fucking uncanny how many times people scream that Jim is out to get them and has rallied the town to destroy them, like he's the head of some damn conspiracy theory or something.  I've learned to recognize this as something I call "The Jimbot Fallacy".

NativeForeigner

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #122 on: September 24, 2011, 02:49:36 am »

What?

Hell, if I didn't have a choice and couldn't change my target without becoming suspect, I would bus my buddy.

I listen to reason when it's actually that reason you're trying to feed me. Anything short of that I tend to ridicule. You know how to answer my question now, why don't you do that for me? And yes, that is withholding information and I can only assume it's because you're covering your ass until you can prove differently. It's not so much that I suck at asking questions as it is you suck and answering them.

I'm fine with being called a dick. Because I am a dick, but only when someone deserves it.

(I bolded the question you've ignored or missed a few times now [not just from me])

you are a dick.

Yeah, you're a dick, NativeForeigner.

Quit being such a dick, you dick.

Maybe if you weren't such a dick you wouldn't be such a dick.

What can I say? I'm a dick. There's nothing circular about it.
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Yeah, you're a dick, NativeForeigner.
Quit being such a dick, you dick.
Maybe if you weren't such a dick you wouldn't be such a dick.

Urist_McArathos

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #123 on: September 24, 2011, 04:15:08 am »

You've been absent for nearly two entire days, Max.

Are you going to do anything besides get back to arguing and nitpicking with Native over this hypothetical question BS, and throw out insults?  Because if all you're going to do is vote Jim for being a dick (the wrong VARIETY of dick, apparently) and then bicker with Native, I'm going to wonder if you are just trying to drift along without actually doing anything.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #124 on: September 24, 2011, 07:52:53 am »

To counter your attack, two points.  One, you seem awfully convinced that the cult leader absolutely would lurk.  If you're wrong on that assumption, then you're going to be blinded by your own assumption.  You go as far as to say someone is "a little too active to be the leader."  I think your premise is too shaky to rule people out based on that.
I could be wrong, true. But I doubt it. At least, I consider it more likely that I am not wrong. I'm not ruling people out- the only people I have ruled out are me, Dariush, and Jack- and my opinion of Dariush is still subject to change. But if I consider all possibilities regardless of likelyhood, everyone becomes I DUNNO??? for alignment, and that gets us nowhere. So, I consider it less likely that active people are scum, they become PROBS TOWN.

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Two, and I was wondering when someone would call me on it, yes, I am doing more defense of people I consider town than I normally would (today- D2 is a different story).  Since there's no scum team as of yet, there's no case where someone could accuse me of defending a scumbuddy and thus dismiss my argument.  I'm pretty damn sure you're town and am willing to state an argument as such.
True dat. Which is why it isn't my main point; it merely contributes to the overall impression of you trying your darndest to active lurk away.
See, whilst you could be defending others out of the kindness of your heart, you could also (to a degree) be setting yourself up to say 'told you so' tomorrow, and to get the targets of your defence to think 'gee, what a swell guy. I bet he's town'.
I'm not saying that this is definitely the case. But it is a very real possibility, and either way, it is contributing to your air of active-lurkery.

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Three: all that other stuff
Wait, what. There is no three? Damn, there goes my chance to unvote you. Oh well, better luck next time. Which is to say, next game, scumbucket.

DARIUSH= TOWN. The cult leader does pay attention to the game, the possible counter roles to his power, and how people are mislynching each other. He is either a neglectful townie, or VERY good at feigning ignorance.
Toaster pointed out that you're making a lot of assumptions. Like this here.
How is this a good assumption to make?
Firstly, I'm sorry about being 'too wordy'. If you need anything clarifying, please ask.
Secondly, I fail to see what part of this assumption confuses you. Dariush is almost certainly town, because the cult leader would be paying more attention to the game, and he is not.

I don't really see it. How has he been passive, asking small questions, etc. etc., and how do those make Toaster scum?
I invite you to read over Toaster's posts and look for anything resembling a serious opinion, attack, or contribution to the game. I, at least, could not find any.
This makes Toaster scum because this is activelurking. So designed as to let the cult leader slip under the radar of the town.

So.  First, a clarification of my views on "attention" and "suspicion" via an example: the whole RVS hatred thing.  Announcing your hatred of RVS attracts attention, but shouldn't really attract suspicion when you're known to do it normally.  That is why I didn't really like it when you tried to use that as proof that you weren't actively trying to avoid suspicion.  Meh, it confused Jim too.
Well, I dunno. Avoiding attention and avoiding suspicion share many of the same traits, methinks, and in this case, I considered them interchangable. People don't like people who won't play the way they like playing, I feel, and will feel suspicious of someone who is blatant about rejecting their playstyle. They will then go on to look for actual reasons to feel suspicious.

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Next, and more importantly, what exactly makes Toaster lurkier, more passive, less willing to ask good questions, and less willing to share opinions on who is scum than, say, Max White, who has never voted (and is the only player, not counting Powder, not to have done so post-RVS), who has barely asked any questions, whose content consists almost completely of an argument with Native that you feel was garbage, and who has not posted in 43 hours?  What makes Max, based on what you're looking for, probably town?
Toaster has been here, the whole time. He has never contributed. But he has tried to disguise this lack of contribution.
Max was not here for a while, but not for so long (I felt) that he could be accused of lurking yet. I did say I wanted to see more of him. And yes, what little contribution he had was silly and pretty much all in discussion with Native. But he wasn't (I feel), trying to hide this.

The point is, Max has been lurking. Toaster has been active-lurking. Active lurking is always on purpose; lurking, not always.

Native: I feel like I have responded to these points already. Some of them relate to a difference in our opinions of how to scumhunt; on these, I feel, we must agree to disagree. I'm not sure how much of a response you want to the other things; I feel I would merely be repeating things already said.
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NativeForeigner

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #125 on: September 24, 2011, 08:08:21 am »

Nuke: I can certainly agree to disagree, I don't have a problem with that. I wasn't really expecting much of a response, I'm far too tired to start a half-decent interrogation.
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Yeah, you're a dick, NativeForeigner.
Quit being such a dick, you dick.
Maybe if you weren't such a dick you wouldn't be such a dick.

Dariush

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #126 on: September 24, 2011, 09:18:46 am »

I'm too lazy to quote, so I'll just answer directly.

Jim, am I supposed to check every quote's... trueness? I didn't think that someone would actually go and make a quote with proper timestamp and all, but with different text.

Urist, you didn't tunnel me or anything. See, if you really had a change of heart, you'd have said something like 'I see, fair enough, vote Nuke because blablabla', but you instead chose to break up my answers into individual quotes and respond to every single one of them, in detail, agreeing that obviously you haven't ran a game before and wouldn't know what to do, you're so sorry blablabla. Thus resulting in the purest Too Townie example. You also saw that Nuke was as good as lynched due to the amount of votes and his general style of play and immediatly changed to him without any arguments to make certain that he gets lynched.

Urist_McArathos

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #127 on: September 24, 2011, 10:25:14 am »

Dariush: So, let me see if I'm understanding this.  I break up answers into quotes frequently, everyone does.  I was making a case against you, and responding to your answers to my main points.  You find that to be TOO Town?  While you're entitled to your opinion, I'd have thought that voting you, then following you defense with a short little "Oh whatevs dude, vote NUKE instead for X" would be way scummier.  Voting someone then backing off that vote without any explanation given in the very next post?  Scum move.  You're seriously going to vote me for acting more town than scum?  That's a fucking ridiculous argument in my case.

As for not making a case against NUKE, that's just plain not true.

First, I accused him (in the post where I FoSed him) of being hypocritical and inconsistent, and flat-out lying to us.  ALL Scumtells.
NUKE: So, I want an answer from you.  You dismiss out of hand the idea that my question about your town meta has any merit as a topic of discussion.  How is it not hypocritical to laugh off the suggestion we discuss your town meta and its impact on this game, then turn right around and POINT IT OUT YOURSELF in the same goddamned post!?

NUKE post cited

"My town meta is not important enough to discuss because it has no bearing on this game, and now I acknowledge it may indeed be a factor in this game".

Seriously NUKE, inconsistent shit like this is what keeps getting you lynched.  It's hard enough to tell Town from Scum, and I'm not going to give you a free pass just because you do this all the time.  You act scummy, you're going to hang.

Or are you going to try and feed me some BS about how, like overdefending or pre-emptive defenses, contradicting yourself isn't a scumtell either?

Next, I pointed out that he was being as scummy as usual and being difficult to read ( on purpose, to avoid suspicion was the subtle accusation here).

That's my case against NUKE.  I didn't recite it a second time since I said it in the previous post, AND I mentioned to NUKE while voting him that he had to address my concerns from before if he wanted me to back off.  Jim doesn't like my reasons for voting him, Dariush, but he's not saying I don't have any.  That's a flat-out fucking lie.

So, let me ask you...why are you so determined to prove I'm scum that you resort to this behavior?  You seriously couldn't be bothered to read my statements about NUKE in the same post you were ALREADY reading?  Because if you had, like Jim, you'd at least know that I had reasons.  You would have said they were bullshit, or scummy, etc., but you'd SEE them.  The fact that you didn't makes me wonder if you truly think I'm scum, or you just think you can pounce on the newbie to get attention off you.
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Jack A T

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #128 on: September 24, 2011, 10:38:02 am »

Thus resulting in the purest Too Townie example.
One should not have to defend against accusations of being too pro-town.  Why are you accusing Urist of being too pro-town, Dariush?

Max: You got into a long, insult-filled argument with Native, but have never voted for anyone.  Who do you suspect most at the moment?  Why?  What makes Native feel too town to vote for?
Right now, and to some level when you asked, Jim Groovster.
He is being abrasive, and not in he's 'I'm so gruff' sort of way, more along the lines of 'Play along or get lynched!' sort of way that he does when he is scum.

Um...Max, you didn't answer the whole thing.  Unanswered part bolded.

Also, Max, your "proof" for your claims against Jim tells me absolutely nothing.  Can you give some examples from other games of what you're talking about?
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Screw you, Jack.

Toaster

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #129 on: September 24, 2011, 11:14:53 am »

Nuke:
To counter your attack, two points.  One, you seem awfully convinced that the cult leader absolutely would lurk.  If you're wrong on that assumption, then you're going to be blinded by your own assumption.  You go as far as to say someone is "a little too active to be the leader."  I think your premise is too shaky to rule people out based on that.
I could be wrong, true. But I doubt it. At least, I consider it more likely that I am not wrong. I'm not ruling people out- the only people I have ruled out are me, Dariush, and Jack- and my opinion of Dariush is still subject to change. But if I consider all possibilities regardless of likelyhood, everyone becomes I DUNNO??? for alignment, and that gets us nowhere. So, I consider it less likely that active people are scum, they become PROBS TOWN.

The problem with your assumption is it's really the centerpoint of your opinion on most of the people here.  If your assumption falls flat, so do your suspicions.

DARIUSH= TOWN. The cult leader does pay attention to the game, the possible counter roles to his power, and how people are mislynching each other. He is either a neglectful townie, or VERY good at feigning ignorance.
Toaster pointed out that you're making a lot of assumptions. Like this here.
How is this a good assumption to make?
Firstly, I'm sorry about being 'too wordy'. If you need anything clarifying, please ask.
Secondly, I fail to see what part of this assumption confuses you. Dariush is almost certainly town, because the cult leader would be paying more attention to the game, and he is not.

This is an even worse assumption.  Dariush has a history of poor attention to detail- I can give examples from past games if you want.

Also, why do you attack me for saying you're town when you're saying that Dariush is?


Dariush:
Urist, you didn't tunnel me or anything. See, if you really had a change of heart, you'd have said something like 'I see, fair enough, vote Nuke because blablabla', but you instead chose to break up my answers into individual quotes and respond to every single one of them, in detail, agreeing that obviously you haven't ran a game before and wouldn't know what to do, you're so sorry blablabla. Thus resulting in the purest Too Townie example. You also saw that Nuke was as good as lynched due to the amount of votes and his general style of play and immediatly changed to him without any arguments to make certain that he gets lynched.

This is both bad logic and wrong.  It's been addressed, but Too Townie is a fallacy, and he was attacking Nuke at the same time he was after you.

It also fails to address my post to you.

Your attacks here on Urist was weak, and the case on Nuke reeks of bandwagon.

Your only other two posts before that are your first post RV and a response to a question.

Yeah, you're pretty much scum.


Max:  You're starting to bother me for how much you're arguing for the sake of arguing, instead of arguing a case that someone is scum.   How strong would you call your suspicions?
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #130 on: September 24, 2011, 11:44:01 am »

Oh, toaster. I'm getting deja vu! Lets hope you don't get NK'd by your own subjects this game. That would be disappointing, also impossible.
Nuke:
The problem with your assumption is it's really the centerpoint of your opinion on most of the people here.  If your assumption falls flat, so do your suspicions.
So.
I acknowledge this, yes. It is a reasonable assumption, and most people are town. Why is it wrong to assume this?
Allow me to perform some reductio ad absurdum upon what you're saying: The assumption that this is not a bastard game with no scumteam is the basis of everyone's suspicions. If it falls flat, so do all our suspicions!
The point being that some assumptions can and should be made, in order to achieve anything.

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This is an even worse assumption.  Dariush has a history of poor attention to detail- I can give examples from past games if you want.
Great. Are any of those games ones in which Dariush has to rely on his own paying attention to win, such as in, say, a game where he is the cult leader? I'm not denying that Dariush is a lazy bugger who doesn't pay enough attention. What I'm saying is that he would be paying more attention if he were scum.

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Also, why do you attack me for saying you're town when you're saying that Dariush is?
Quick! If you spout out some more cries of hypocrisy, people will jump on the nukewagon without bothering to read what you're saying!
I conceded already that your defending others is not necessarily a scumtell. However, it is also not a town tell, and it is an active-lurking-tell. My case against you is based on your active-lurking, not your defending of others.

Also!
Good to see you have grown some teeth, Toaster. This post contains far more aggression, content, and opinions than your previous posts.
I'm glad you took the trouble to adapt your playstyle. Aren't you glad I pointed that out for you? COUGHSUPERNATURAL1COUGH.

Hahahaha, yeah, there is no way you're not the devil. Er, cult leader.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #131 on: September 24, 2011, 02:40:17 pm »

Secondly, I fail to see what part of this assumption confuses you. Dariush is almost certainly town, because the cult leader would be paying more attention to the game, and he is not.

You have justified your assumption with your assumption.

You're supplying traits you think a Cult Leader will have that you have no reason to believe that a Cult Leader would have.

I invite you to read over Toaster's posts and look for anything resembling a serious opinion, attack, or contribution to the game. I, at least, could not find any.
This makes Toaster scum because this is activelurking. So designed as to let the cult leader slip under the radar of the town.

How about you do it instead, since you're voting him and you want other people to vote for him.

COUGHSUPERNATURAL1COUGH.

Sounds like Max White isn't the only person who has a shitty grasp of somebody else's meta. Maybe you'd like to verify your meta impression with other games?

McArathos, no answer to you being newbscum and not calling your target scum but lynchable anyway?
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You know, it's fucking uncanny how many times people scream that Jim is out to get them and has rallied the town to destroy them, like he's the head of some damn conspiracy theory or something.  I've learned to recognize this as something I call "The Jimbot Fallacy".

NUKE9.13

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #132 on: September 24, 2011, 03:38:51 pm »

You have justified your assumption with your assumption.
You're supplying traits you think a Cult Leader will have that you have no reason to believe that a Cult Leader would have.
Right. I thought that it would be obvious to everyone, but evidently not. My mistake.
The Cult Leader is, at this point at least, the only person whom he can rely on for victory. For him to win, he has to work. A townie can rely on other townies to do (most of) their work for them. They would be a total dick for doing so, but I don't think that condition excludes Dariush, do you?
It seems, therefore, reasonable to assume that the Cult Leader would be fairly interested in working towards victory, and hence fairly interested in things like, the most basic of the games mechanics (what roles there are), and why people are mislynching each other (including misquotations for comedic effect).
Does this explain it?

Quote
I invite you to read over Toaster's posts and look for anything resembling a serious opinion, attack, or contribution to the game.
How about you do it instead, since you're voting him and you want other people to vote for him.
I did
I, at least, could not find any.
What, you want me to quote all of toasters posts and point out that none of those things are there?
I could do that, but it would merely extend the size of my WoT, and wouldn't be very interesting. "Not here. Not here either. Ooh, none here. Or here". That, but between quotes of everything Toaster has said.

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COUGHSUPERNATURAL1COUGH.
Sounds like Max White isn't the only person who has a shitty grasp of somebody else's meta. Maybe you'd like to verify your meta impression with other games?
Psh, I'm just messing with him. I refer not so much to toaster's Meta as to how the current back-and forth between me and him resembles in part a back and forth we had in SupNat1 (which I had absolutely spot on). Its more 'Our' Meta if anyone's, of which I will concede there are no other examples. Feel free to disregard that comment if it bugs you; I have no intention of seriously using it as evidence against him- its more of a mind-game to stress him out.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #133 on: September 24, 2011, 05:43:10 pm »

I did

But I completely disagree with the conclusion you're drawing so it's up to you to find supporting evidence or make better arguments.

Does this explain it?

Yes, I understand the reasoning, but it's flimsy.

You're assuming scum are going to be that much more competent just because they are scum, and that's a terrible assumption to make. You'll end up in the situation you are now, crossing people off you suspicion list for reasons you have no reason to think are true.

Careful play is not scum play and sloppy play is not town play. It depends on the player, not the role.

Psh, I'm just messing with him. I refer not so much to toaster's Meta as to how the current back-and forth between me and him resembles in part a back and forth we had in SupNat1 (which I had absolutely spot on). Its more 'Our' Meta if anyone's, of which I will concede there are no other examples. Feel free to disregard that comment if it bugs you; I have no intention of seriously using it as evidence against him- its more of a mind-game to stress him out.

Well, it's good to know that despite appearances you're not making dumb meta arguments.

Or maybe that's been a tactic of yours: Make dumb meta argument, retract it if you get called out on it.
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You know, it's fucking uncanny how many times people scream that Jim is out to get them and has rallied the town to destroy them, like he's the head of some damn conspiracy theory or something.  I've learned to recognize this as something I call "The Jimbot Fallacy".

Urist_McArathos

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Re: Cult Mafia - Day 1 - This Is Gonna Psuck [9/9] -- ONE REPLACE NEEDED
« Reply #134 on: September 24, 2011, 05:54:54 pm »

McArathos, no answer to you being newbscum and not calling your target scum but lynchable anyway?

I wasn't overly concerned with your vote; I figured you would see your mistake as you watched me hunt.  Since you asked, though..

I never said he wasn't scum, I said I wasn't completely certain.  Big difference.  I was convinced from Dariush's responses that he was town, and NUKE was my next target.  I feel comfortable lynching NUKE if no one else crops up, because he's acting scummy, doing scummy things, and I'm not going to give him a free pass because "it's his meta".  Correct me if I'm mistaken, but working a case or defense on someone using their meta is kinda WIFOM, is it not?  "He always acts this way as town, therefore he is town.  Unless he knows that as scum, and is doing it to fool me.  But, a townie would suspect that gambit, and act differently.  Unless he knew that as scum, in which case..."



You get my point.  NUKE is acting scummy; my uncertainty stems from this being part of his meta, but it seems like poor town play to NOT lynch (or at least pressure vote) a scummy player over less scummy ones because "they're always like this".

I don't think newbscum is a fair accusation.  Yes, I'm a newb.  Newb players tend to make a lot of mistakes, but you're haranguing me on one point (a point, I might add, even NUKE found fair enough for a vote).  If your case is solely that it's a shitty vote, I must disagree based on the arguments I made against him already (inconsistent and hypocritical behavior, lying to town, general scummy playstyle that I addressed with my opening RVS question to him).

If your case is that I'm a newbscum, newbing it up, do you have anything else to add?  Surely you must, because the alternative is that I'm playing fairly competently and therefore have done one thing you dislike.  I think it's fair to say that calling me out as newbscum neatly eliminates the idea that I'm also playing well.  You should have more evidence to back up that assertion, unless your case against me is fairly weak overall.  I'd accept that, given that I don't have much of a case against anyone besides NUKE at the moment.

Dariush is making me wonder why he's doing the things he's doing, and I find Max's behavior to be the kind of thing a lurky cult leader might do to slink away from the spotlight after a big, showy display of activity to eliminate accusations of activelurking.  Neither one is fairly solid, though.
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