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Author Topic: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.  (Read 35015 times)

Girlinhat

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2011, 06:09:50 pm »

It appears to be a lower priority job than "No Job" even, and has picky rules.  They never clean above ground, and sometimes clean underground depending on smoothed/constructed or rough, and they only clean floors, not walls, though they clean a 3x3 area and that can include a wall if you're lucky.

This is why I use Hack, because cleaning is so unreliable as to be non-existent.

Xen0n

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2011, 06:11:21 pm »

I've heard they will be more inclined to actually wipe the layers of caked-on goblin blood away if you set a meeting area over the area to be cleaned.  But as girlinhat says, I just use DFHack seasonally.
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Psieye

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2011, 06:16:57 pm »

Why not set up a pressure plate that dumps a 1/1 level of magma when the dwarf leaves the well zone.  Say, make a 1-way path past the well using pressure plates and hatches.  Dwarf paths into the well zone, washes himself, when he leaves (and is not standing next to the well) a measured 1/7 of magma drops next to the well where it cleans and eventually evaporates.
"Eventually" might take up to months. This suggests he needs to atomsmash the 1/7 magma after it's been deployed.
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Sphalerite

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2011, 07:11:37 pm »

If you have a pile of contaminants floating above a 7/7 pool of magma directly below it, would the heat be close enough for it to boil away? For example, Urist comes to the well and uses it to wash off some blood, this blood lands on a hatch keeping Urist from plummeting to a firery death. When this hatch opens, the contaminants won't fall into the magma, but might however, be subjected to the heat from it.

Probably not, but more importantly, I'm pretty sure there's no physical way to have a well and a pool of magma in directly adjacent spaces without water and magma coming in contact.  Keeping the magma from getting into the well is the main problem with most of these self-cleaning well ideas.
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Eddren

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2011, 07:14:00 pm »

Who says you need to make it not adjacent?
In fact, take ADVANTAGE of it.
Instead of having the Magma stay directly below the well, have it flow down into the Water.
Then mine out the Obsidian, for extra Obsidian fun-stuff.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2011, 07:20:55 pm »

That takes more effort and less automation, and gets cloggy pretty quick.

I'm in Minecraft right now, creative mode, so I'll hash together a quick magma loop idea that I had.  BRB with screenshots.

EDIT:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Put a gear assembly above each pump (the pistons) and a pressure plate in each pit, linking them sequentially.  This will cause a 100 tick delay between each pump firing.  However, do NOT put a plate by the well, because if you let it run instantly the magma will appear and then get pumped very fast.  Hopefully, slow enough to burn contaminants but not slow enough that it will spread.  It can be rigged to lock a door to prevent dwarves entering, and given a hatch so that any dwarf locked inside is dropped safely 1 level.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 07:35:34 pm by Girlinhat »
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Xen0n

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2011, 06:42:01 am »

That takes more effort and less automation, and gets cloggy pretty quick.

I'm in Minecraft right now, creative mode, so I'll hash together a quick magma loop idea that I had.  BRB with screenshots.

EDIT:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Put a gear assembly above each pump (the pistons) and a pressure plate in each pit, linking them sequentially.  This will cause a 100 tick delay between each pump firing.  However, do NOT put a plate by the well, because if you let it run instantly the magma will appear and then get pumped very fast.  Hopefully, slow enough to burn contaminants but not slow enough that it will spread.  It can be rigged to lock a door to prevent dwarves entering, and given a hatch so that any dwarf locked inside is dropped safely 1 level.

Dwarf Fortress:  We use Minecraft as our testing ground before we go to the effort of making our REAL contraptions.
Deal with it. 8)
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Sphalerite

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2011, 08:59:59 am »

Here's the automated design I worked out:

Code: [Select]

Level Z2

WWWWWWW
WWWWWWW
WWWWWWW
WWWWWWW
WWWWWWW
WWWWWWW
W.%%hWW   Pump, pumping from the west, connected to pump on Z1
WWWWWWW   Pumps are driven by constant source not shown here
WWWWWWW   h = magma-safe floor hatch connected to pressure plate #2 on Z1

Level Z1

+++++++   Dwarves enter/exit north side of assembly
WWW+WDW                                           Door controlled by pressure plate #1
WWWhW^W   Hatch controlled by pressure plate #2   Pressure plate #2 - set to be triggered by citizens, any size
WWWhWDW   Hatch controlled by pressure plate #1   Door controlled by pressure plate #1
WWWW^WW   Pressure plate #1 - set to be triggered by citizens, any size
WWWWDWW   Safety door - normally leave unlocked
W+%%#WW   Pump pumping from east, magma-safe grate over empty space
WWWWoWW   Well
WWWWWWW

Level Z0

WWW+++W
WWW+++W   Floor space here connected to safe exit
WWW+++W   to serve as catch area for any dwarf standing
WWW+++W   on safety hatches when they open
WWWWWWW
WWWWWWW
WWWW+WW
WWWW.WW   open space here with clean water underneath
WWWWWWW

To prime the device, load one tile of 7/7 magma into the space to the left of the pump on level Z1, then connect power to the pumps.  The pump on Z2 will grab the magma and put it into the space over the floor hatch on Z2.  The magma will stay contained there.

The well has two corridors connecting to it from the entry/exit space on the north side of Z1.  The right side corridor has two mechanism-controlled doors, which are usually closed, so when a dwarf wants to use the well to clean himself he will enter the well by the corridor on the left.  The floor hatches will both be closed at this point, allowing entry.

On the way to the well the dwarf will step on pressure plate #1.  This will open both of the mechanism-controlled doors and one of the hatches on level Z1.  The open doors shouldn't matter, and the open hatch will keep any other dwarves from following right behind the dwarf.  I haven't timed how long a dwarf takes to clean themselves, I suspect it depends on how far down the water is, but it shouldn't matter if the pressure plate resets before the dwarf is done.

When the dwarf finishes, he will leave a pool of contamination on the grate.  The dwarf will then attempt to leave the well, either through the right-side corridor if the pressure plate has reset, or through the left-side corridor if it has.  In either case the dwarf will again step on pressure plate #1, which will open one of the hatches in the left-side corridor and both doors in the right-side corridor.  The dwarf will now be forced to exit through the right-side corridor.  As he does so, he will step on pressure plate #2.

Pressure plate #2 will open the second floor hatch on level Z1, which will block entry to the well during the cleaning cycle.  It will also open the floor hatch on level Z2.  This will allow the single tile of 7/7 magma to fall.  The magma will fall at a semi-random rate, but should remain a single tile as it does so and not spread out.  It will fall through the grate on Z1, hopefully cleansing the grate of any contamination as it does so.  When the magma reaches level Z0, the pump on level Z1 will instantly grab it and move it to the tile on the left side of that pump.  The pump on level Z2 will then move the magma back over the floor hatch on Z2.  As the floor hatch will stay open for 100 ticks, the magma will probably make multiple passes through this loop.

When pressure plate #2 resets, the floor hatch on level Z2 will close.  The magma passing through the pump loop will reach that point and stop.  The second floor hatch on level Z1 will also close, and the well will now be ready for its next customer.

I build this in my fortress last night, but haven't tested it yet.  I'll try and run some tests tonight and see if it accidentally incinerates anyone.
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Sphalerite

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Re: Building a !!well!! was an awesome idea
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2011, 06:04:12 pm »

Presenting the self-cleaning well:

Level Z2, the upper pump.  Power feed is from the south.  One tile of 7/7 magma has been loaded onto the floor hatch at the outlet of the pump.



Level Z1, the well level.  On the left side is the connection to the fortress's utility magma pump stack, which was used to load the initial single tile of magma into the pump.  Note that there are several doors shown here that were not on my diagrams.  These were for assembly and are locked hen the well is in use.



Level Z0, the well and dwarf-catching floor.  The room in the upper right is to safely catch any dwarves who fall through opening floor hatches on level Z1.  The well is hard to see at the bottom right.  There's a floor hatch controlled by a lever which can be used to close the well channel, and a drain which lets magma out if something goes wrong with the self-clean cycle.





Here we have the self-cleaning well in action:

A dwarf walks into the well from the north, through the left-side corridor.



He steps on the first pressure plate, opening one hatch and two doors.  None of these are in his path, so he keeps going without noticing.



While the dwarf is using the well, the first pressure plate resets, closing the doors and floor hatch.  This doesn't really matter at this point.

Having finished cleaning, leaving a pool of blood behind, the dwarf leaves the well.  Initially, he paths through the left entrance, but when he steps on the first pressure plate, his path is interrupted by an opening floor hatch.



He'll stand there for a moment confused, then take the right side exit, which is now open.  On the way out, he'll step on the second pressure plate.



The second pressure plate will open the floor hatch on Z2 level.  The single tile of magma will fall onto the grate...



and then keep falling to level Z0, burning away the blood pools as it goes.



The magma will cycle through repeatedly, until the second pressure plate resets.  The well is now clean and ready to be used again.



The one thing I don't like about this design is that it requires a constant power source.  If any dwarf uses it when it's not powered, the magma will fall to level Z0, then flow into the well and clog it with obsidian.  In this fortress, that means leaving the water reactor running all the time, which I had preferred not to do to save FPS.  If I feel really clever I'll give the well pumps its own mini-reactor with a self-priming mechanism that starts it and stops it automatically as needed.
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Vehudur

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2011, 06:48:02 pm »

You know that's awesome, right?
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vyznev

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Re: Building a !!well!! was an awesome idea
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2011, 06:58:44 pm »

Wow, that's some impressive ‼engineering‼.  (Also, for some reason, I found the original post absolutely hilarious.  I was literally laughing with tears in my eyes as I read it.)

I suppose the trickiest part with a self-priming generator would be making sure it starts up fast enough to catch the magma when it falls and keeps running until after the magma hatch has closed.

It occurs to me that if you moved the magma pump stack one z-level up, you could put a (magma-safe) pressure plate on the target tile where the grate is now.  I'm not sure exactly what that might be good for, but it seems like a potentially useful option to have.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2011, 07:14:51 pm »

I'm gonna TL;DR this because my mind is fried, but am I correct in guessing that it's roughly based off my idea of putting a well inside a repeater?

Sphalerite

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Re: Building a !!well!! was an awesome idea
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2011, 07:25:20 pm »

It occurs to me that if you moved the magma pump stack one z-level up, you could put a (magma-safe) pressure plate on the target tile where the grate is now.  I'm not sure exactly what that might be good for, but it seems like a potentially useful option to have.
I suspect that if I did that, the magma might not be on the plate long enough to remove the blood.  The idea of this design is that the magma is in the same tile as the bloody grate for the amount of time it takes fluid 1 Z-level, which is semi-random but somewhere around 10 steps.

I'm gonna TL;DR this because my mind is fried, but am I correct in guessing that it's roughly based off my idea of putting a well inside a repeater?

Not exactly.  It's actually based off an old automated refuse incinerator I built in 40d.  It's basically a 2-level pump stack with the tile in the middle.  A floor hatch stops it from cycling, until a dwarf leaves the well.  I use a trick with a pressure plate, floor hatch and two doors to make sure the pressure plate that starts the cleaning cycle only triggers when the dwarf is leaving, not entering.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2011, 07:29:21 pm »

So, you drop magma from above, it passes through a floor grate by the well, and is caught by a pump under the grate?  A sort of magma replaced mist generator?

Sphalerite

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Re: Building a !!well!! was a terrible idea.
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2011, 07:30:20 pm »

So, you drop magma from above, it passes through a floor grate by the well, and is caught by a pump under the grate?  A sort of magma replaced mist generator?

Basically yes, except it doesn't generate mist.  Magma mist seems to only be generated by cave-ins.  If this was dropping water, it would be a mist generator.
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