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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress meets The Outer Wilds? "Ultima Ratio Regum", v0.10.1 out Feb 2023  (Read 592946 times)

Retropunch

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3000 on: February 22, 2017, 03:21:16 pm »

URR, don't worry buddy. You've got this.

I'm still an avid fan and player, among many, of UnReal World - which has been developed on and off since 1992! No rush, man. Do what you need to do, and do what you can.

We players can get a little antsy sometimes, but as you age, you realize all good things come with patience.

Ehndras, just to let you know, it's kinda forum etiquette here to edit posts instead of double posting, especially if it's on the same theme/topic.
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Ehndras

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3001 on: February 22, 2017, 05:42:51 pm »

Don't see where that is applicable, as its in response to a prior post which was likely already read by said party.

Been here for quite a few years, between this account and the last. :) Depending on time factors, I've realized edits may go completely unseen.

But aye, was nice discussing something interesting. Cheers!
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Retropunch

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3002 on: February 22, 2017, 07:49:00 pm »

Don't see where that is applicable, as its in response to a prior post which was likely already read by said party.

Been here for quite a few years, between this account and the last. :) Depending on time factors, I've realized edits may go completely unseen.

But aye, was nice discussing something interesting. Cheers!

No offense meant - I certainly wasn't trying to be belligerent or proclaim that I'm a more experienced Bay12'er or anything, but on this page you've had three posts in a row, and the previous one you had another three posts in a row. This isn't about content, it's just about multiple responses in a row - just edit the previous one.


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Ehndras

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3003 on: February 22, 2017, 08:03:14 pm »

Ahh, those. Apologies, I'll admit I'm biased in that regard. Picked up a questionable habit of multi-posting due to freelance writing and blogging, as people tend to see a super-massive wall of text and NOPE away. For purely psychological reasons, people will apparently read a string of 20 posts and get turned off by an actual structured multi-paragraph text of the same exact word volume.

I blame social media *cough cough*

Soon as I'm done posting my new RP game I'll edit and delete the excess :) Thanks for the suggestions / reminder, much appreciated.
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3004 on: February 27, 2017, 08:06:53 am »

Thanks for the kind words, folks :). As below, I've just had the most productive coding weekend in months (half a year?), as I'd managed to clear out everything else that needed doing and allow myself that time to really, really push ahead. This coming weekend will be to some extent the same, as although I'll be interviewing people at an esports event in Poland in the day time, my evenings are very clear. That said though, as before, I am crunching on finishing my first monograph in the next three months, and there's a lot still to do - so we'll see how things go.

---

This week I’m doing something slightly unusual. A huge amount of coding has been done this week, but I’m not yet able to produce screenshots from this progress; some of it is slightly buggy, and I need to test a few new generation systems to ensure that the NPCs I want to talk to, in order to take the screenshots, correctly have the information I actually want them to have. Succinctly, though, we now have a huge set of new list questions generating, various elements such as punctuation and slight meandering to make conversations seem more human, political parties even more fully implemented, a geographical search system put in place, greetings vary massively based on the relationship between you and the NPC, and even a procedural alcohol-name generation system so that innkeepers have something to talk about, and the beginnings of systems for modifying what people will say to you based on their mood (personal), the “local” mood (what people in that area think of you), and their knowledge of the particular matter (geographical, historical, etc).

All of these are finished, on the cusp of completion, or well into development; but because I’ve just been coding like mad, I haven’t really stopped to polish everything and get things to a position where I can take screenshots. As such, I’ve decided just to put this up this week, to signify: lots of coding is happening, and there will be lots to show off soon, but I’d rather show it all off once I can implement screenshots. I know some of the recent updates have been screenshot-lite, so I really want to have a solid volume of screenshots in place once I can show things off.

As such: hopefully, we’ll have a nice set of screenshots next week!
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Zireael

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3005 on: February 27, 2017, 08:10:10 am »

This coming weekend will be to some extent the same, as although I'll be interviewing people at an esports event in Poland in the day time, my evenings are very clear.

Esports event in Poland! :D Where is the event? Is it in Warsaw?
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3006 on: February 27, 2017, 04:04:15 pm »

This coming weekend will be to some extent the same, as although I'll be interviewing people at an esports event in Poland in the day time, my evenings are very clear.

Esports event in Poland! :D Where is the event? Is it in Warsaw?

Alas, no - it is the IEM in Katowice, 3rd -> 5th!
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3007 on: March 12, 2017, 07:55:42 am »

A big update this week, summarising everything from the last three weeks of coding work. Succinctly, the game now has NPCs who can reply to even more “list questions” than they were previously able to, adds in what I am calling “meanderings” into speech from time to time in order to make everything feel and read more realistically, boasts a rather more developed international relations system which NPCs can draw on when making comments to the player, and procedurally generated alcohol is now present in the game. This last one is, obviously, the most crucial of the bunch. Oh, yes, and I’ve also expanded and finished the system for generating the names of relics, although their procedurally-generated images are of course not yet present. So without further ado, read on:

More List Questions

I have now finished off almost all the “list questions” – which is to say, questions where the answer often takes the form of a list, such as “What towns are nearby?”, or “What animals are sacred to your people?”, and so forth. Here are some examples of the recent additions:

Animals and Plants

You can now ask people about the animals and plants that are local to their homeland, and whether any animals or plants are considered especially important in that homeland, as part of your conversation. They’ll now give you a list of the local flora or fauna as appropriate, which is always grammatically correct, and also lists these things in a fairly logical order. The number is never too high, either, so you never find yourself reading through a gigantic list of things. Although not currently implemented, in the very near future these animals and plants will be spawning, and should be found referenced throughout a culture, and are designed to be another clue the player can potentially use to find out about the world.





International Relations and Geography

The game can now generate appropriate and logical sets of relationships between nations, based on their ideologies, religions, proximity, and so forth. You can now ask people about their relationships with other nations, what they think about other cultures in general, what kinds of cultures are nearby, what tribes and nomads can be found nearby, and so on. The same system is then used for overall geography, so you can now ask a range of questions about things that are near to where the player and an NPC are having their conversation. For example, you can ask whether there are mountains (or mountain passes) in the proximity, and so forth. These questions then redirect to a function which chooses an appropriate area for the NPC to have knowledge of (more educated NPCs will have a wider area, and NPCs more well-disposed towards you will think about giving you a longer response). This system needs expanding to all kinds of conversations, which I will talk about more in the future, but for the time being, people can tell you quite a bit about the surrounding areas:





Laws

Also, here are the law responses from last time:



You’ll notice the first of those is rather long. This is an example with a nation with a lot of laws on violence, and talking to someone who is well-disposed to you, and is therefore willing to actually talk to you. I think I need to find some way to chop this down; for such a long potential answer, maybe even people who like you the most will tell you the top laws or bottom laws, or maybe they’ll say “Do you want to know punishments for the worst crimes or the most common crimes?”, or… something. I’m not quite sure yet. Either way, it’s pretty clear that a reply this long isn’t really workable, and is very hard to read, and will probably lose the reader’s interest part-way through.

Meanderings

Secondly, I added in a set of what I’ve now taken to calling “meanderings”. As part of making conversations as realistic as possible, I felt it was important to add in code for people thinking for a moment before they reply, or being semi-reluctant to quickly reply, and just generally having the umms, ahhs, and oks, that characteristic real speech. At the same time, of course, having too much of this would quickly get annoying. To balance this out, there are two elements. Firstly, people will only start to use these phrases if they begin to get annoyed about the conversation, and they’re starting to lose interest in you. When their full interest is on you they won’t falter in the conversation, but this might change as time goes by. Secondly, they will not use it too often; an NPC that has just used one will definitely not use it on the next sentence, and beyond that, it is randomised, but becomes more and more likely the less and less interested in the conversation the NPC becomes. If you look at the conversations above, you’ll see a few of those present here and there.

International Relations

As noted above, the game now generates appropriate relationships between each nation in the game, whether feudal, tribal, or nomadic. In essence, the game looks over the ideologies of each nation, and looks at where they match, and where they clash. In some cases a pair of ideologies could be seen as a match or a clash; for instance, two monarchies might get on well because they have the same system of leadership, maybe the families are related, and so forth; or they might hate each other and have a rivalry between their ruling families. In these cases the game chooses at random whether these are “good” commonalities or “rivalry” commonalities. Equally, some shared ideologies will always cause conflict – two theocracies or two especially religiously zealous nations which do not share religions are never going to get on, and likewise two imperialist nations – whilst others will always generate friendship, such as a shared commitment to religious tolerance, or a shared appreciation of gladiatorial combat. Then, in turn, various religious beliefs, geographical distributions, and so forth, further affect matters. These are then categorised into nations that are close allies, friendly, neutral, disliked, or firm enemies; these five categorisations then affect speech, whilst the more specific like/dislike values will play into other elements later on. This is basically akin to the kinds of systems one sees in the recent Civilization games, but somewhat more complex and with many more factors at play determining what cultures think of one another.

Along the civ.relations dictionary, there is also a civ.trade_relations dictionary. This is similar, obviously, but actually somewhat distinct. Whereas relations simply tells you what one nation thinks of the other, in the case of trade_relations, we’re talking specifically about how much trade passes between two nations. Of course, trade is not going to be passing between nations that loathe each other, but two nations that share a massive border and are somewhat friendly are likely to trade more than two nations that are the best of friends, but half the world apart (bearing in mind, of course, that we are talking about the renaissance rather than the modern day here). Trade_relations therefore tells you the volume of trade going on between each nation and each other nation, and in some stores the player will therefore be able to sometimes find the items of other nations for sale. The reverse will actually happen in black markets – if X and Y hate each other, the goods of X might secretly appear in the black markets of Y, and vice versa. In this way I’m aiming to make the potentially someone “abstract” idea of international and trade relations much more concrete; it shapes who appears in each nation, what items appear where and under what conditions, and will also – of course – affect where the player can safely go.

Alcohol

For a fun little diversion for an hour this week, I also implemented the system for procedural alcohol – I’m sure we’ll all agree, a truly vital component of any procedural world. Each nation now selects an archetype of drinks that they tend to enjoy drinking, which can be beer, spirits, or wine; these are designed so that a full world will not have a completely equal distribution, but some generations should have a high volume of beer, spirits, or wine drinkers; much as in the real world, we don’t see these equally distributed. It then generates an appropriate set of alcoholic drinks for each nation, with words drawing on the terrain and climate types enjoyed by that nation, a wide set of default words for each alcohol type, and names – a class of alcohol might be named after the particular monastery where it is brewed, a particular town where it is particularly favoured, and so forth.





The player can also now ask innkeeps about the kind of alcohol they sell, and they’ll give you an appropriate list! Taverns stock a high percentage of all the alcohols drunk by one nation, but will never stock the full collection; equally, I’ll shortly implement a system so that taverns particularly near the border with another country will (assuming that is a nation with a particular set of alcohols, so not a tribal nation) sometimes carry one of the alcohols from “across the border”. Later on I will also add actual “breweries” in the locations where the various alcohols in a nation are brewed; these will have minimal gameplay value, so I certainly won’t spend more than a few hours on that, but for the sake of completeness I think they need to go in to make the world look just that little bit more complete, more varied, and so forth.



Relics

In the last fortnight I also finished the generation system for relics, and here are some example debug logs, where “RT” means “Relic Type”. Some of these do have rather lengthy names, because the names of the people associated with the relic can be quite long. It’s a little unwieldy, but honestly, I think it’s fine. I’m extremely happy with how these work and how these look, and I don’t think I’ll make any more changes here before the 0.8 release, beyond making sure everyone in the game can speak about relics of their religion correctly.



Blog Update Speed

So, once again, this has been a fortnightly update. As such, I’m just going to stop commenting on this for now or trying to predict when the next update will be, and I’ll just say to everyone: I’ll update as soon, and as rapidly, as I can. I am developing URR actively again, as you can see from the above, but I am also changing jobs, taking up two visiting positions in two other continents, and finishing my first academic monograph… so we’ll see how it goes. See you all next wee-… er… next time!
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Neonivek

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3008 on: March 12, 2017, 08:29:46 am »

No mead or mulled recipes? :P

Actually I just assume mead didn't generate in that batch. (and mulled just means heated typically with spices... so it would use the standard drink anyhow)
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Retropunch

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3009 on: March 12, 2017, 09:27:46 am »

All looks great! It'd be nice if you could tie 'meanderings' into the person himself. I don't know how it works exactly, but lets the player gets a brief overview of the character when they initiate conversation 'A short, lean male dressed in finery, he looks rather distracted', then it'd be good if that tied into the conversation style itself.

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Scoops Novel

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3010 on: March 14, 2017, 05:23:50 pm »

How are you going to handle banter?

I understand you can't go into the same detail as your Q&A system, but you need something to represent buttering somebody up at least. IMO, a slightly more abstract system might be the name of the game. Take dwarf fortresses book system.



Spoiler: Exhibit B: (click to show/hide)

Plenty of personality and enough specifics to project onto, without requiring a chatbot to reply convincingly. I mean, you could probably have a conversation like this - "Denstep agrees that his sweater would be a good home for a skylark. In fact, he suggests you begin a colony." - without seemingly trying too hard.

You already have an "interest" system; expand it into a friendliness system! Small talk is the most realistic way to build up to these kind of questions. It's also a perfectly sensible system to influence morale and emotions. I'd like to add: i imagine the player can build up a party if they so wish. Rather then reducing companions notable features to their initial introduction, useful skills and information dispensation i would inject some of their personality into the foot-slogging; namely the fast-travel system where realistically your opinion of your fellows would be formed.

I would give each companion conversation preferences, and allow the player to set his own. When you fast travel, the two collide and you receive a short summary of whats been discussed as well as the partys/individuals mood at the end of the journey. Fast travel would only be interrupted if a conversation turned serious or key information was revealed.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 12:00:18 pm by Novel Scoops »
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3011 on: March 14, 2017, 06:57:07 pm »

I guess that does side-step the problem with alien-sounding conversation "I am a member of Earth. I enjoy to drink the water. In Earth we have an internal skeleton."
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3012 on: March 25, 2017, 02:04:18 pm »

Yo, we're discussing this idea here. Easy to skim and plenty of ideas to flesh out this mechanic. I'm really jazzed with it :D
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 10:38:05 am by Novel Scoops »
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Ehndras

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3013 on: March 26, 2017, 03:19:57 am »

I guess that does side-step the problem with alien-sounding conversation "I am a member of Earth. I enjoy to drink the water. In Earth we have an internal skeleton."

...I'm sigging this, if you don't mind
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #3014 on: March 29, 2017, 04:01:19 pm »

Interesting thread link and interesting thoughts! I agree that "banter" and incidental comments are really important; as suggested in one of the comments on a recent blog post, having people give brief little anecdotes should do a lot in this direction. 0.9 - the short update after this gigantic one which will finish off the conversation system - might well include things of that sort...

---

This fortnight I’ve been working on getting the entire basic underpinnings of the conversation system finished; I’ve made a lot of progress, not quite enough to show off all the screenshots I’d like, so like last time, I’d rather wait until I can do a nice screenshot-heavy update, which will be next time (whenever that is!).

Instead, I’m going to talk a bit about the second thing I’ve been working on. I’ve now started developing the system by which NPCs will make judgements about you, the player, and where you come from. There are five elements to this: your clothing, your jewellery (meaning what rings and necklaces you are wearing, if any), your skin tone, your facial appearance (scarification, tattoos, headscarves, turbans, that sort of thing), and how you talk. The last one of these I’ve talked the most about in the past, but in this entry I’m going to do a little bit of an overview of how I see all of these functioning, and what it’ll do for the game. Equally, however, I now find myself faced with a big problem: what if all five elements of a player’s appearance suggest different origins or statuses? How should the NPC respond? I have a few notions, but I’m very open to suggestions.

Anyway, without further ado:

Clothing/Armour/Weapons

Other NPCs will make a range of judgements about the player based on the clothing they wear (and, later, the armour they wear, and weapon they wield). I think this will have three elements: what nation they seem to be from, their potential wealth, and whether their clothing denotes any kind of special affiliation, such as a religious order or military organisation. Most NPCs will likely treat you with more deference the more impressive the clothing you wear, but of course wearing the clothing style of a hated nation is likely to have the opposite effect no matter the wealth you’re showing off. For religious clothes, I’d like to have NPCs assume you’re a priest or a monk if you’re wearing obviously religious garb, although such garb will obviously have significant negative effects in certain areas of the game world; at the same time, though, it might encourage a particularly zealous shopkeeper to give you a discount, for instance. However, if people ask for religious advice and your character doesn’t know anything about the religion they are masquerading a priest of… that might be a little suspicious. Once armour is in the game that will also affect people and how they respond to you, probably with a little fear, a little deference, but again depending on the specific situation. Wearing unknown clothes should also elicit some kind of response depending on the nation/people; friendly and inquisitive if a very open and cosmopolitan nation, scared if isolationist, etc…



Jewellery

Jewellery will appear at some point in the near-ish future, and will consist of rings and necklaces. These will be similar to clothing: there will be cheap, middling, and pricy rings and necklaces available for each nation, and special/unique rings and necklaces for religions, religious orders, various other factors, various ranks in various organisations, and these sorts of things. Right now, I think special jewellery will be available for religions, houses/noble families, monarchs/rulers, but that’ll probably be it (and then more generally, as above, across cultures). I therefore see these as having a very similar set of relationships as clothing, but also denoting several things (such as family affiliation) which clothing does not; although most will be standard jewellery items for the culture in question.

Skin Tone

Skin tone varies very widely in URR, and is inevitably a central method by which peope might make judgements about the origin of the player character. This has only one element, which is to say a geographical assumption: NPCs will consider your skin tone, estimate how close/far from the equator you originate, and then look at their knowledge of nations and take a guess at which one you might be from. As such, there will also be some way to temporarily alter and mask your actual skin tone and make it lighter or darker as part of trying to blend in in other societies; and, of course, with some skin tones you’ll be able to “pass” for a citizen of many countries, most likely, whereas a clothing style would only allow you to pass for one. Hopefully the intersection of these (and the other elements below) will allow for some interesting combinations and strategic decisions.



Facial Appearance

Facial appearance, meanwhile, is a binary element: it denotes the overall culture someone comes from, and that’s it, although in a small number of cases it might also denote rank, slavery, and so forth. Again, if people recognise the markings they will suspect you are from the appropriate culture; if they don’t recognise the markings, the same range of responses mentioned earlier might play out. Again, I’ll be introducing ways to fake some markings (though probably not others?) as a means of further disguising yourself.



How you Talk

We’ve discussed this several times before on this blog, so I’ll keep it brief here, but the way in which you speak is going to be crucial. NPCs will make judgements about your origin based on what you say and how you say it, whilst you’ll be able to fake speaking in other dialects to a greater or lesser extent based on your knowledge of that dialect at the point you’re having the conversation. This will often be a make-or-break point for any player/player character attempting to “fake” their way into/through a particular culture or particular social situation, and is one of the aspects that’ll appear in 0.8 – NPCs won’t respond to it yet, but you will be able to change dialects, and see the results.



Summary

These are the five major elements I see as contributing to how other NPCs see the player – the first four being literally how they see the player, and the last one of course only coming into the equation if you start talking to the NPC (or the NPC starts talking to you, which is a feature that definitely needs to be implemented in the near future). I think these will give the player ample methods for crafting an image useful to them at that moment,

But what happens if 50% of your elements suggest you are person A of rank B from culture C and religion D, but the other half of your clothing suggests you are person W of rank X from culture Y and religion Z, which is the absolute opposite? Should they take an educated guess? Should they comment on how you are dressed, and that you are dressed strangely? What if they have particularly strong feelings towards/against A/B/C/D/W/X/Y/Z? Or what if 90% of your visible elements suggest X, but then you have a single element suggesting Y? Should the NPCs focus entirely on Y? Should they assume you are X and just treat Y as a strange element? Does that depend on the nature of X and Y and the context in which you are meeting another NPC? My point from all of these questions is that it’s proving very difficult and complex to decide, in essence and in one sentence, how NPCs should add up the elements of “you” they are presented with and how they should subsequently come to a judgement. This is what I’d love any and all of your thoughts on below; this system isn’t going to be implemented in 0.8, because I’m really trying to get only the core essentials of the conversation system done before release, but it’ll be a crucial element of the fast and much shorter 0.9 which will be finishing off the conversation system straight after. What do you think?

Updates

As I’ve said before, I’m crunching on finishing my first book, and about to travel for six weeks through various visiting fellowships; I am hard at work coding, but right now I’m finding fewer blog updates is really helping me with game developments, so we’ll be sticking to uncertain update schedules until my book is finished and submitted (May 31). I know this is rubbish, folks, and I wish I had some more time, and I hate how long URR 0.8 is dragging on for, but I’m doing the absolute best possible in the present situation. Next update: asap!
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