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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress meets The Outer Wilds? "Ultima Ratio Regum", v0.10.1 out Feb 2023  (Read 589691 times)

Mephansteras

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #450 on: March 21, 2012, 08:01:11 pm »

Something like that might be possible with far lower chances (say, only 5% of dropping behind each move), as I think the numbers you describe would cause almost instant loss of cohesion. However, over a long charge, I think something like this would be good, but the skills of those riding the horses would reduce the amount of cohesion lost.

There are two skills that really should effect that. The skill of the rider at riding, and the skill of the rider at maintaining discipline. Staying in formation takes a very different mindset than simply being good at a horse (or even being good in combat in general). It's an important skill in general, and one that often made the difference between the most successful armies and ones only moderately successful, even if the soldiers in general were evenly skilled/equipped. 

Same thing applies to being in any formation, of course, but it's even harder on horseback where you have to carefully control your mount to stay with the others.
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Rowanas

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #451 on: March 22, 2012, 04:46:53 am »

Hmm. You might have some success with "smart" charging. As in, fast creatures will use their charge if there's nothing to stop them, or if it would bring them into melee range with an advantage. Otherwise, they'll charge up to just before the point at which they get stabbed (2 tiles away, generally), and use their extra movement on the turn after, in order to get full use of their charging bonus and to win the initiative.

So do you mean they get to attack as part of the charge? And if they don't, they get an EXTRA move the turn after? This sounds like an interesting idea - could you elaborate? :)

Happily. I propose that fast units should never charge into combat unless they would get the first strike. That's kind of the point of charging, no? In real life it's not an issue, because there are no turns. In URR, I suggest that cavalry should get a bonus action every turn (or several, although you'll want to limit the number of actions that can be used to attack). Normally cavalry will use that bonus action to run towards things, but they will hold back if they would end their turn within 1 tile of an enemy (which would give the defenders the first strike). If bonus actions are left at the end of a cavalry turn, one of them will be added to the beginning of the -next- turn, which would allow the cavalry to close using their bonus movement, strike once using their rollover action and then once more in their normal action. This way, cavalry will have a proper, massive charge (double attacks) in the first turn, without having to give them any sort of speed or charging bonus (and the effects will only be increased if you do decide to give them other bonuses)

The problem I see with this system, however, is that this would give cavalry 2 attacks every turn if they don't use up their full bonus action allowance. A cavalry unit that doesn't move will always have that action rollover, so they'll receive a bonus action every single turn. Alternatively, you could specify when exactly cavalry can have 2 attacks instead of 1, which also seems like a pain in the arse.

Perhaps it would simply be better to have this system, but without the action rollover. If cavalry get bonuses for each combat turn they spend moving without attacking, that might have the same impact on the initial charge, without requiring extra. They'd still refuse to use bonus actions if they wouldn't get the first strike, but it would be so much simpler. Not sure if it's better though.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Ivefan

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #452 on: March 22, 2012, 06:43:02 am »

...Or;
If distance to target=3
   Enable Charge
   Move 2
   Attack
End if
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Rowanas

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #453 on: March 22, 2012, 06:58:55 pm »

I don't think that really captures the full, sweeping vision of my idea, but ok, if that does it for you.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Clownmite

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #454 on: March 22, 2012, 10:34:17 pm »

Here's the movement system I use:

Each tick represents a fixed moment of time, say, 1 second. Each creature has a "speed" attribute that determines the next turn they can act on, lower speed means faster acting. So, on turn 1, the player moves, causing the game world to advance by, say, 6 ticks. The game loops through each creature on every tick, and checks if the creature has been "scheduled" to take a turn.

On each creature's turn, it takes the current tick and adds its speed to it to figure out the next tick that it will move. Creatures with a lower "speed" attribute therefore get to act more often than ones with a higher "speed" attribute.

I go a step further and add a tiny bit of randomness to each creature's speed every turn. Also, while coordinating movements, creatures in the same squad all act on the slowest speed of anyone in their unit so that they stick together. This way horsemen, with a speed rating of, say, 2, would move coherently at the same time, getting to move twice as fast as a speed 4 unit and 3x as fast as a speed 6 unit.

My opinion is that "bonus actions" seem a bit game-y, and that boiling everything down to a time-locked approach makes much more sense, plus it's not too difficult to implement.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #455 on: March 23, 2012, 01:54:55 pm »

Downside to that system is there is a big difference between movement speed and attack speed. A knight charging on horseback with a lance can cover a lot of ground, but he really can't get too many attacks in with a lance. One, usually, unless it's a really clean hit or he misses. Splitting Speed into two attributes - Movement and Actions, is a decent way to fix that issue.
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varsovie

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #456 on: March 23, 2012, 03:09:52 pm »

That's why you should use a (light)saber and camel mounted religious fanatics!

Anyway, no need to indicate the direction with an arrow if you manage to put some *dust* behind charging cavalry.
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Clownmite

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #457 on: March 23, 2012, 05:52:12 pm »

Downside to that system is there is a big difference between movement speed and attack speed.

Definitely. My plan is to eventually have every action take a certain time cost. Attacking, moving, getting up from the ground, etc. I don't think that would be too hard to implement.
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #458 on: March 25, 2012, 12:46:29 pm »

There are two skills that really should effect that. The skill of the rider at riding, and the skill of the rider at maintaining discipline. Staying in formation takes a very different mindset than simply being good at a horse (or even being good in combat in general). It's an important skill in general, and one that often made the difference between the most successful armies and ones only moderately successful, even if the soldiers in general were evenly skilled/equipped. 

Same thing applies to being in any formation, of course, but it's even harder on horseback where you have to carefully control your mount to stay with the others.

That's a very good thought, and fits nicely under one of the currently-existing skills on the list.



Happily. I propose that fast units should never charge into combat unless they would get the first strike. That's kind of the point of charging, no? In real life it's not an issue, because there are no turns. In URR, I suggest that cavalry should get a bonus action every turn (or several, although you'll want to limit the number of actions that can be used to attack). Normally cavalry will use that bonus action to run towards things, but they will hold back if they would end their turn within 1 tile of an enemy (which would give the defenders the first strike). If bonus actions are left at the end of a cavalry turn, one of them will be added to the beginning of the -next- turn, which would allow the cavalry to close using their bonus movement, strike once using their rollover action and then once more in their normal action. This way, cavalry will have a proper, massive charge (double attacks) in the first turn, without having to give them any sort of speed or charging bonus (and the effects will only be increased if you do decide to give them other bonuses)

The problem I see with this system, however, is that this would give cavalry 2 attacks every turn if they don't use up their full bonus action allowance. A cavalry unit that doesn't move will always have that action rollover, so they'll receive a bonus action every single turn. Alternatively, you could specify when exactly cavalry can have 2 attacks instead of 1, which also seems like a pain in the arse.

Perhaps it would simply be better to have this system, but without the action rollover. If cavalry get bonuses for each combat turn they spend moving without attacking, that might have the same impact on the initial charge, without requiring extra. They'd still refuse to use bonus actions if they wouldn't get the first strike, but it would be so much simpler. Not sure if it's better though.

Apart from the potential for cavalry getting a double initial attack, I really like this system. I think having a 'free' attack would be a logical advantage that cavalry get, and having them only move forward if they would get that attack would negate the initial conditions issue for the most part. Instead of a potential double attack on the rollover (if I'm understanding you correctly) I might just make their attack on the subsequent turn slightly better since, say, they have a little longer to prepare the move. I think that sounds like a very good solution; I'll think about how to implement it.

-ticks-

That is an interesting system, and sounds like an excellent one for a roguelike, but I don't think it would fit perfectly in here, having pondered it a bit. I think that would fit into a roguelike with more focus on wild creatures and smaller, more intricate battles than larger ones; plus having bonus actions, I think, could be developed in interesting gameplay ways, actually. Additionally I want the speeds of all creatures pegged, to use a financial metaphor, to the player, and I want a certain level of regularity there.

Downside to that system is there is a big difference between movement speed and attack speed. A knight charging on horseback with a lance can cover a lot of ground, but he really can't get too many attacks in with a lance. One, usually, unless it's a really clean hit or he misses. Splitting Speed into two attributes - Movement and Actions, is a decent way to fix that issue.

Agreed - I'm doing this fully at the moment, actually, also for things like picking up, dropping, wearing, wielding, etc. There will be a certain number of actions you can perform in a turn, but I think things like this - moving, attacking, wearing, eating, throwing, whatever - and the time they take will need careful balancing.

That's why you should use a (light)saber and camel mounted religious fanatics!

Anyway, no need to indicate the direction with an arrow if you manage to put some *dust* behind charging cavalry.

Exactly! And nice solution, actually.

Blog entry coming on time tomorrow!
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Leatra

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #459 on: March 25, 2012, 07:30:06 pm »

Any chance on revealing the skill list? :D
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Lord Dullard

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #461 on: March 26, 2012, 12:56:57 pm »

That's quite an extensive skill list.

Also, that border is really cool.
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Leatra

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #462 on: March 26, 2012, 02:48:58 pm »

That's list is...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Will it be possible to murder leaders without anyone noticing you are the killer if you have a high infiltration and/or stealth skill?

"ALL HAIL THE REGICIDE KING!"

EDIT: Hey, what about a mapping skill of some sorts? Being able to record the areas you visit and seeing the lands known to you without running around or zooming in and out. If you don't have a high mapping skill your character will "forget" those areas and it will be blank in the world map. Maybe you can buy maps from shopkeepers or ask around for surroundings like in DF.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 02:56:45 pm by Leatra »
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Sundial

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #463 on: March 26, 2012, 10:56:23 pm »

What is the purpose of tearing every weapon skill and every magic skill into 3-5 pieces? Is there really a need for separate aim and force skills, especially since there's already a strength stat and a dexterity stat kicking around to ensure strong creatures hit hard and deft creatures hit accurately?
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Rowanas

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - a 'strategy roguelike' in the making...
« Reply #464 on: March 27, 2012, 06:04:57 am »

I'ma have to back sundial up on this. 5 seems... a little excessive. I could understand 2, perhaps even 3 if there's a good argument for it, but 5 seems like it's a little...too comprehensive. Balance, sir. Balance.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.
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