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[Ultima Ratio Regum]

So what will the other 2 eras be?
The age of discovery? The Modern age?
Then little mini eras in between, like an ancient era before the medieval era, then between the age of discovery and the modern age the industrial revolution?
That's the first thing that popped into my head, but I am interested in what you plan on doing.

I'm afraid that's going to remain a secret for a bit! I just increasingly realized the mechanics I wanted didn't all 'fit' into a single era. I'm also further considering the extent to which the world will be 'open' or not (especially in the later eras...) but that's a topic for another entry. There will not be mini-eras, but naturally not every civilization in one era will have reached the 'maximum' level of technology for that era. So in the medieval era, you'll get everything from what you'd expect down to hunter-gatherers elsewhere on the planet.

In the mean time, Skill Trees!

http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/08/20/skill-trees-part-i/

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Mini-update: all three eras planned out, but more importantly, work on 0.2.0 has now properly begun - the first thing has even been ticked off the development plan! Not, I confess, a BIG thing, but I've also got a few days' work on programming in the skill trees. You can navigate around them at the moment, and they fit in well so far with the rest of the game, can be easily accessed/scrolled through, etc. Also, some of the work on the material library is done, and materials now have a huge number of new properties, and this new system (though predominantly under-the-hood at the moment) will have a significant impact on things like weapons, armor and constructions later.

http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/development-plan-2/

[Mephansteras]

My brain keeps trying to figure out how to make a boardgame out of that skill tree diagram of yours...

[Nighthawk]

MY brain keeps trying to figure out how the hell I'm ever going to micromanage those skill trees for every single unit in my 10,000 man army.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

My brain keeps trying to figure out how to make a boardgame out of that skill tree diagram of yours...

That would be some boardgame (especially across all the trees)...

MY brain keeps trying to figure out how the hell I'm ever going to micromanage those skill trees for every single unit in my 10,000 man army.

Simply, you're not! All other humans and creatures and the like will have skill trees effectively 'diluted' according to their class and their specialisms. It would just be madness otherwise, I decided (and would take a lot of extra programming to get them to intelligently use their XP, etc). They still get better, but other creatures are much more 'narrow' than the player. I didn't originally intend this to still be the case, and in terms of AI I still want other NPCs to do interesting things, but in terms of skills, they are much more specialized.

[Mephansteras]

I was just talking about this one. My brain just keeps going "That looks like a fascinating layout for a game board."

In any case, looking forward to the next version.

[Rowanas]

I'm going to download the 0.2.0, since apparently a little OSX work will get done on it, and see if I can apply my reasonable experience to making it compile properly for mac os 10.5.8. If I buy a new computer, I may well send you this one if you want it. It kinda sucks (hence new computer), but if it helps you get URR working, all the better. Dunno if I can afford a new computer yet, though.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

I was just talking about this one. My brain just keeps going "That looks like a fascinating layout for a game board."

In any case, looking forward to the next version.

That is splendid to hear . Programming is slow but steady; got all the medieval trees visible and you can navigate around them; now I just need to get them to actually have an effect!

I'm going to download the 0.2.0, since apparently a little OSX work will get done on it, and see if I can apply my reasonable experience to making it compile properly for mac os 10.5.8. If I buy a new computer, I may well send you this one if you want it. It kinda sucks (hence new computer), but if it helps you get URR working, all the better. Dunno if I can afford a new computer yet, though.

Sounds awesome, and that would be great if you could find a way; and, wait, are you offering to send me a mac?! Have I read that correctly?! I'm really going to try and get Linux working for the next release, but Macs remain the toughest (and, sadly, the smallest userbase, so the lowest priority ). Nevertheless, there seem some solid methods of getting it to work people have found; I've listed a few of them on the Downloads page.

MEANWHILE, a new blog entry! With lots of words, and no pictures. The next entry, however, will have lots of pictures and few words. Such is life. http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2012/09/04/pretentious-gaming-talk-i/

[BishopX]

Looking at the example skill tree you posted URR, I think that min/maxing may be an issue. All of the 'rewards' on the tree are at the end of branches. So in order to get special moves and more stat points you need to focus your XP on a specific branch because the experience consts of each skill go up as you any skill in the tree. So buying a point of accuracy will make it harder to buy another point of damage.

To remedy this I have four possible suggestions

1) break up the goodies so that you don't need to complete a tree to get special moves or stat points, some are available along the path. This will encourage people to build a more well rounded character as they go for specific attainable goals.
2)Make XP costs scale by branch rather than by tree. So investing points in slashing damage wouldn't increase the difficulty of learning slashing accuracy.
3)Mix up trees a little bit. Damage II doesn't need to come after Damage I, it could come after accuracy I. By weighting the frequency of accuracy, damage and specials on each branch you could present alternatives that are less munchkiny
4)Add cross-requisites to force players to broaden their skill selection. For example, require a special move learned on the accuracy tree to advance the ability to chop off limbs past level 2. This would make the skill tress massively more complex, but would force players to broaden their skill selection.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Looking at the example skill tree you posted URR, I think that min/maxing may be an issue. All of the 'rewards' on the tree are at the end of branches. So in order to get special moves and more stat points you need to focus your XP on a specific branch because the experience consts of each skill go up as you any skill in the tree. So buying a point of accuracy will make it harder to buy another point of damage.

To remedy this I have four possible suggestions

1) break up the goodies so that you don't need to complete a tree to get special moves or stat points, some are available along the path. This will encourage people to build a more well rounded character as they go for specific attainable goals.
2)Make XP costs scale by branch rather than by tree. So investing points in slashing damage wouldn't increase the difficulty of learning slashing accuracy.
3)Mix up trees a little bit. Damage II doesn't need to come after Damage I, it could come after accuracy I. By weighting the frequency of accuracy, damage and specials on each branch you could present alternatives that are less munchkiny
4)Add cross-requisites to force players to broaden their skill selection. For example, require a special move learned on the accuracy tree to advance the ability to chop off limbs past level 2. This would make the skill tress massively more complex, but would force players to broaden their skill selection.

Very interesting, and good point. I see exactly what you mean. Of all the possibilities, #4 appeals to me the most, and I think one solution could be that when you reach the "Special Attack" boxes on each tree, it doesn't instantly unlock, but rather gives you a menu of potential special attacks. This is something I intended to do anyway; the special attacks aren't fixed, but give you a choice of, say, 4 special attacks, so a tree with two SA boxes lets you unlock two. However, each one has specific requirements, some of which will require multiple parts of a given tree; you can view the potential special attacks early on and see what the requirements in each tree are. I still want you to have to explore a direction in a tree to reach them, but there might be, for instance, 6 attacks - one requires nothing but damage, one nothing but accuracy, whilst the others require damage/1-handed combo, or accuracy/2-handed, etc, and so you can also plan your development accordingly. I want to make the special attacks/abilities very important, and I think making them dependent on a variety of unlocks (even though they are at the end of specific branches) could balance it nicely. At the same time, though, I do conceive of damage-focused and accuracy-focused combat resulting in very different gameplay as it is, so in that way I don't mind splitting the branches. What do you think? I'm glad you raised this issue!

[ThtblovesDF]

Why not split a little more?

You have a special attack. One alternative option for it makes it hit more enemys. Another makes it hit twice. You can focus on the whole tree and max that one attack. Or you could branch.


Removing player choice seems like a unneeded move in a game of this complexity level, we are not the average gamer that needs a double D pointing out how to move.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Why not split a little more?

You have a special attack. One alternative option for it makes it hit more enemys. Another makes it hit twice. You can focus on the whole tree and max that one attack. Or you could branch.


Removing player choice seems like a unneeded move in a game of this complexity level, we are not the average gamer that needs a double D pointing out how to move.

I'm not sure you mean; split up the A/D branches? Or do you mean that the idea for special attacks with varying requirements is a good one? I think the system outlined above would let you focus on the whole tree or max out attacks, hopefully.

[ThtblovesDF]

For now as I see it, you have "Damage" and then "more Damage" as a single path for... well damage.

Depending on the finer mechanics, there are many ways to deal damage - especially, getting it to the target, from armor penetration, to amount of hits, accuracy, range, stamina/mana cost and therelike. Allowing one to choose the strenghts of a specific skill and the way you deliver the damage is what I'm refering to.

Example:

Code: [Select]


Instead of D->D+->d++->D++->New skill


this:

Code: [Select]

               / Accuracy +------Accuracy ++ ----- Special: Focus - your next attack will be far more likly to hit.
              /
Start--------Penetration + ------->Penetration ++
             \
               \ Range + -----Range ++ -------Range +++
                                        \\
                                          Special: Max Range attack, take a round to rest/higher cost

Note: Each Step also gives a small damage boost.


[Ultima Ratio Regum]

For now as I see it, you have "Damage" and then "more Damage" as a single path for... well damage.

Depending on the finer mechanics, there are many ways to deal damage - especially, getting it to the target, from armor penetration, to amount of hits, accuracy, range, stamina/mana cost and therelike. Allowing one to choose the strenghts of a specific skill and the way you deliver the damage is what I'm refering to.

Example:

Code: [Select]


Instead of D->D+->d++->D++->New skill


this:

Code: [Select]

               / Accuracy +------Accuracy ++ ----- Special: Focus - your next attack will be far more likly to hit.
              /
Start--------Penetration + ------->Penetration ++
             \
               \ Range + -----Range ++ -------Range +++
                                        \\
                                          Special: Max Range attack, take a round to rest/higher cost

Note: Each Step also gives a small damage boost.


That's very true if we count 'damage' as meaning just 'the basic number of damage you do', rather than, say, DPS or rather DPT (damage per turn). Naturally, the boost in accuracy will up your effective damage, and indeed the same goes for all parts of the skill tree. And they do currently have little branches of the sort you describe, that may enhance your chances of spotting openings, or boost two special things for each weapon type. In the screenshot, the damage, one-handed, two-handed, and accuracy trees all have little upgrades off the side. Same goes for each tree - for instance, slashing weapons can raise their chance to parry incoming attacks or sever limbs; heavy weapons can invest points in knocking back and stunning opponents; etc; and these are scattered through-out the trees too. The kind of tree you've illustrated is exactly what I'm going for - there are skills along the route, and whilst the special attacks/special moves are at the ends, I think that's necessary. But I think I actually have the kind of tree you have! All the main branches are going to up effective damage, but I specifically want accuracy-centred and damage-centred combat to be noticeably different. I'm also reluctant to put in something like increased penetration; increased damage could come from a stronger swing, instead accuracy from greater skill, but I'm trying to avoid skills that wouldn't be obviously present in the *character*. I mean, I know a lot of games would have something like that, but I can't see how a human training with a weapon could improve its penetration, whereas I can see how raw damage and accuracy (and spotting openings, etc) could be improved.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Further: just to be clear on that, in the skill tree I've shown, the vertical/upwards branch is one-handed skill, the vertical-downward branch is two-handed. You can thereby hopefully combine both a weapons preference and a style preference for starters, giving you four different combos, or just fully explore the accuracy/damage tree. Anyway, coding in the other medieval trees for this coming Monday!