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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress meets The Outer Wilds? "Ultima Ratio Regum", v0.10.1 out Feb 2023  (Read 593106 times)

Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2850 on: July 03, 2016, 09:43:17 am »

Wow! It's so much cooler than DF!

Haha, well thanks :). It has turned into a very different project - let me know what you think once 0.8 is out!

I mean NPC's talking to players while they go about their shit, like you'd see in most cities say.

Oh, erm... I haven't decided yet, honestly. We'll see, there will probably be some forms of speech that appear in the message window at the bottom of the screen instead of within the conversation window when you pass by them, or things you overhear in the streets ,things like that. There's quite a few things to consider there with regards to UI, distracting the player, optimal play (will it be optimal to just hang around and listen to things, and do we want it to be?), etc etc
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2851 on: July 05, 2016, 06:30:01 am »

Could you have the player automatically track alongside the NPC and have their current location/direction of travel displayed at the bottom of the conversation window? "You are crossing to the street on the left". It allows for some fun stuff; talking to the wrong person without paying attention to your surroundings will get you robbed in a alley before you know it.

You can also do "the elevator pitch", where you have a very short window to interact convincingly. Hell, you could go full on Speed and try to catch up to someone so you can warn/talk/insult them.

That's ignoring all the benefits of talking and fighting.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 11:32:22 am by Novel Scoops »
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SharpKris

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2852 on: July 05, 2016, 07:18:18 am »

holy hell how did i not PTW this yet
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2853 on: July 05, 2016, 08:52:25 am »

You could have a toggle for "listen to ambient conversations", where you walk slower, but are able to overhear snatches of conversation from people around you
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2854 on: July 05, 2016, 02:07:07 pm »

Could you have the player automatically track alongside the NPC and have their current location/direction of travel displayed at the bottom of the conversation window? "You are crossing to the street on the left". It allows for some fun stuff; talking to the wrong person without paying attention to your surroundings will get you robbed in a alley before you know it.

You can also do "the elevator pitch", where you have a very short window to interact convincingly. Hell, you could go full on Speed and try to catch up to someone so you can warn/talk/insult them.

That's ignoring all the benefits of talking and fighting.

Heh. These are all nice ideas. I really like the first one, actually, and having the context of conversations also adjust things. I'll give this some thought!

holy hell how did i not PTW this yet

Welcome!

You could have a toggle for "listen to ambient conversations", where you walk slower, but are able to overhear snatches of conversation from people around you

Oooh, yes. I quite like this idea.
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2855 on: July 05, 2016, 02:19:45 pm »

This week has seen the implementation of name generation into the main game file, to rather fantastic results, alongside a substantial amount of bug-fixing. For name generation, the names now consider all the relevant religious/cultural/geographical background of the nation they hail from, and generate appropriately. The game also tracks the various different structures of the names – some name types have just one name, some have two, some have several with a mini-title in the middle, and so forth – and can always produce a “casual” version (i.e. “Mark” to “Mark Johnson” or whatever) as well as accurately reproducing a name when needed, without looking for name-segments where they don’t exist, or failing to look for a name segment relevant to a certain name archetype.

I have to say, I am *so* happy with how these look! They’re all very different, some speak to particular locations or cultural ideas, whilst others don’t, but they are all distinguishable. I’m still doing a little bit more work on these, but only a couple of hours’ work remains, and then in 0.8 everyone who you speak to will have their name highlighted. So, here is a rather splendid set of examples from a whole bunch of cultures in some playtesting world generations! Hope you like black-and-white images…































In the process I also had to develop the very start of the system for generating sets of animals and plants within particular climate zones. Plants were already present but were distributed across all biomes of a certain type (so northern tundra and southern tundra areas would have the same plants, somehow), and also tended to be colour-matched to their biome, which made a degree of sense but definitely reduced the kind of background/aesthetic interest they could potentially generate. Plants were therefore redone, and their naming conventions were also altered somewhat to reflect these changes (all of which come before visual generation at some later date when I have a spare couple of days). Animal generation has now appeared for the first time, and just like plants, they are tethered to a certain area of a certain biome – so the game finds a tile of desert, looks to see how far contiguous desert extends, and then all that desert has the same group of species. The species elsewhere, by contrast, will be completely different, even if they are also desert. Like plants, I’ll generate the images for these at some far-later date (since this isn’t exactly gameplay-essential stuff, just general background worldbuilding), but the names will be used in this release, as they serve to inform the name generation for individuals in certain nations, and they’ll also show up in artworks and literature and metaphors and the like later on. I also thought quite a bit about which animals I can realistically vary in appearance and name, so a few common animals aren’t in here because I couldn’t think of how to vary them well enough, whilst a couple of more obscure animals are present precisely because they vary a lot. Here are some animal/plant printouts, with their biome attached:



And then two massive printouts of all the plants/animals generated across a world, so you can get a full idea of the generation systems for these:





As for the bugs, I’ve reached the point where only two things remain for 0.8: sentence generation, and bugfixes. Sentence generation is such an intellectually complex task – although once I have a suitably complicated but usable and modifiable programming framework in place, I’m confident it will actually move quite quickly – that I need to spend a lot of time simply planning it out before I actually start coding it in. In this vein I’ve been scribbling ideas all over paper for the last week, and although it is taking a while, I am zeroing in on a workable method. Much like most things in URR, it will wind up being a balance between some structures and templates, entirely procedural elements, and then a range of variation within these aspcets based on the speaker producing the sentence – a soon-to-be-gigantic function called make_sentence has now been constructed, and so the only remaining task is to actually write the thing (ha!). As a result of this week’s focus on planning, however, on the actual coding front I’ve been working instead on bug fixing, in order to ensure that 0.8 is actually stable once I release it (hopefully at the end of July/start of August). Some of these were found from my own playtesting adventures, but a large number were submitted by the playtesting team I recruited a few months ago (thanks again, all of you!) and with these all fixed, I do actually feel fairly confident that every part of 0.8 (aside from speech/dialects/etc) is finished, bug-free, and ready to release. I can’t rule out the possibility that there are NPC-related problems I simply haven’t anticipated yet, but I haven’t run into any in quite some time, and everyone basically seems to behave correctly (though I’m going to have to revisit  NPCs in 0.9, of course, to implement the NPC classes that aren’t being included in the upcoming 0.8). Here’s a run-down:

Fortress guards no longer sometimes fail to move when they should exchange schedules with another guard.
Fortress merchants always appear correctly even if the player enters the grid part-way through their move from their home to their stall.
Fortress merchants are always assigned to the correct open-air stalls.
There cannot be two open-air stalls of the same sort within a single fortress, nor too many merchants for them to all be assigned a stall.
Slaves and servants in upper-class districts absolutely, definitely, without a doubt, always sleep in the correct places on the correct floors no matter how and when the player spawns the mansion and what other movements the player takes.
Drawbridge chains do, actually, appear, when the player looks at them.
Looking at certain doors in torture chambers or dungeons no longer causes the game to crash.
Looking at a small number of bars in torture chambers or dungeons no longer results in a black screen instead of the appropriate generated image.
NPCs are always the correct inverted colour when they pass under trees or a gate.
Handled some weirdness with players stepping through gates and sometimes winding up on the tile next to the gate, and sometimes winding up one gate further away.
Fixed an issue where you could read sections of the encyclopedia that should have been disabled.
Fixed an entirely aesthetic issue with some potential colour patterns on couches.
Resolved strange issue with a small subset of square-based castle generation outcomes that would position guard towers in the wrong orientation.

See you all next week for what might be quite a technical post about sentence generation!
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2856 on: July 05, 2016, 06:27:11 pm »

Wow, those are some interesting names. The long set in the middle was utterly incomprehensible but the rest were things I could imagine myself remembering in play.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2857 on: July 06, 2016, 09:08:46 am »

Pls include a pronunciation guide for those of us clueless about accent marks!
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Ehndras

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2858 on: July 06, 2016, 06:55:21 pm »

LOVE IT!!! URR is proving to be the next-generation DF, though of its own remarkably unique scope. :)
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2859 on: July 07, 2016, 07:11:39 am »

Wow, those are some interesting names. The long set in the middle was utterly incomprehensible but the rest were things I could imagine myself remembering in play.

Haha - honestly, I think I'm ok with a few archetypes being a bit bizarre...

Pls include a pronunciation guide for those of us clueless about accent marks!

Heh, maybe I will! Languages can have !s in them (i.e. for click syllables) and I recall a few people thought those were bugs, so I might need to make that clear somehow...

LOVE IT!!! URR is proving to be the next-generation DF, though of its own remarkably unique scope. :)

Thanks! :)
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dennislp3

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2860 on: July 07, 2016, 08:38:58 am »

does it have multi core and 64 bit support...might want to think about that if you start a new project after this haha
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2861 on: July 07, 2016, 11:29:31 am »

It doesn't, as I don't have the slightest idea how to do that and I don't feel like going back and making lots of changes, but it should never need it! I don't need to track anywhere near as much Stuff as DF does :)
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Retropunch

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2862 on: July 08, 2016, 12:33:21 pm »

It doesn't, as I don't have the slightest idea how to do that and I don't feel like going back and making lots of changes, but it should never need it! I don't need to track anywhere near as much Stuff as DF does :)

Yeah, I can't imagine it'd need it unless you started doing things like modelling rock density and water levels. Absolutely every 'tile' is calculated in DF and it still ran pretty much fine on 32-bit.

This, and general thinking about URR has made me think about the need to give NPCs had 'emotional states'. On a basic level, I would imagine these would either be sort of more 'personalities', where if they're 'angry' they'd be a bit shorter with you/less responses, whilst if they were in a good mood they'd give you a bit more leeway to ask stupid questions. Bringing NPCs an appropriate gift or sending a messenger to request an audience would make them happier, whilst barging in in the middle of prayer time would make them angrier (whilst they'd have their own base level of each emotion).

More than that, you could give NPCs more fluid emotions, which would change due to a number of things. Macro level events like being under siege would affect this, as would a plentiful harvest in the other direction. Micro level events might be things like bad weather for farmers or the bar running out of ale. These might affect the base emotional state, whilst the player would be able to tip the scales by their actions.

Obviously this is only 'happy and sad' whilst you could go into it a lot further. Things like hangovers/being drunk could affect things, as could just finishing work. Whilst DF does this on a very deep level, I believe you could fudge a bit of this instead of having to track everything. Having 'going to the tavern' on their evening event list gives a 1/4 chance they'll be hungover in the morning for instance.

I believe this would be a *relatively* easy thing to do which would bring a huge amount of depth and life to the game. You could scale up from base states to a deeper system quite easily I imagine as  any personality is better than none, even if it's a bit crude.

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Skynet

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2863 on: July 08, 2016, 07:32:46 pm »

My only response to Retropunch is that URR should beware of "scope creep". The more complicated the project, the more bugs would exist and the harder it is to fix it. It would be simple to implement in the short-term, but it will be difficult to maintain in the long-term.

The update does remind me a bit about the failed Kickstarter game Cult: Awakening of the Old Ones, though Cult's system could be said to be more complicated. It created brand new species, with randomly generated "morphology" (limbs, heads, etc.) and "traits" (friendly, predatory, territorial, etc.) as well as simulated the spread of these species, which can even cause some species to go extinct. The species would also randomly named, based on the Precursors' language (the Precursors is a randomly-generated race that conquered all of the Known World before mysteriously disappearing...they are the ones who also named all the locations in the randomly generated world as well). I even remember playing as one of the randomly-generated species as well, having multiple arms, etc.

While Cult's system may be fairly impressive (and open-source too!), I kinda like URR's better. I like actually knowing what these animals are and picturing them in my head (oh, a "Black Claw Scorpion", that's cool, I can reason about that) without needing to peek at an in-game encyclopedia every time I encounter another random string of characters.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 07:35:13 pm by Skynet »
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum - roguelike/Borges/Eco, v0.7 released!
« Reply #2864 on: July 10, 2016, 05:11:30 am »

Retro: Mood is definitely something I want to include; as I've mentioned before, I'm implementing one counter for "interest in conversation", and I can see mood as being related, but tangential, so you can have a conversation with someone who hates you but wants to argue with you, for example, or someone who is perfectly friendly with you might get bored of a conversation quiclky or need to leave to do something else. Gifting/interrupting/things-like-that are all ideas I absolutely want to implement; I also *really* like that macro event idea! I'd have to ensure those sorts of influences are always clear, though, but I should be able ot reflect that in what NPCs say/how they act fairly easily.

Skynet: ha, Cult... anyway, don't worry, there's actually a lot of stuff I could do/could have done that I've either delayed or similar removed from the development plan altogether, precisely to avoid that problem! And as you say, I think it's important to give things meaning and easy recognizability; there comes a point where PCG stuff needs too much explaining to fully comprehend it, and with things like plants/animals I've tried to PCG them whilst still ensuring that without having to see them, the player will immediately get a decent impression of what these things might actually look like!
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