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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress meets The Outer Wilds? "Ultima Ratio Regum", v0.10.1 out Feb 2023  (Read 585601 times)

Retropunch

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3105 on: February 25, 2019, 09:10:07 am »

I think the most fulfilling achievements are the ones that affect the world. Going down in history for killing a monster, fighting for territory, upgrading or destroying structures, or having my name and achievement written down in public. Dwarf Fortress's death and retirement mechanics are really fascinating, inspired by Angband tombstones. Being a founder of something and coming back to see it still there is also really cool. In Dwarf Fortress I made families of endangered species and retired them in my forts.

Certainly agree and all of those would be good, but quite a lot of work to implement I imagine. I feel that a quick list of world 'achievements' (which could just be going to all the xyz's or picking up x of y) that you could tick off would be enough to give those that want a bit of guidance whilst they enjoy the fantastic world that's been created, whilst also being easy enough to implement.

It all boils down to how much time/willpower Mark has left to continue URR - a decent trade system would be just as good, as would all sorts of adventure-y things which would give the game focus, but my main fear is that such a fantastic achievement as URR already is gets lost to the realms of 'unfinished games' just because it didn't have anything structured for the player to do, and I feel that's what the wider gaming community will see it as. 

« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 10:13:31 am by Retropunch »
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ChrisLeJohn

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3106 on: February 26, 2019, 03:17:13 am »

In Dwarf Fortress I made families of endangered species and retired them in my forts.

#goals

Good luck on URR, been keeping up for a while!
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3107 on: February 26, 2019, 06:05:25 am »

I appreciate the sense of exasperation that Wof As Pofonma felt as a stranger walked up to him and greeted him ceaselessly
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3108 on: April 12, 2019, 12:38:40 pm »

Glad to hear you're not thinking of abandoning it completely! If you did find time to do future releases, I'd really suggest some sort of...gamifaction of it - even if it was something as straightforward as 'find the 10 secret relics hidden around the world' which you could find through clues in conversations etc. It wouldn't need to even have proper quest giver NPCs or the like, you could just have them as an 'achievements' screen (visit the 5 temples of Ghof, find the 10 secret relics, make contact with the Ghofona tribe...) which would get ticked off once you'd achieved them.

As it looks from my perspective, you obviously had all sorts of incredible (and ambitious!) plans a few years back, and at the time it made a lot of sense to concentrate on the world building and the mechanics as you were planning pretty much the most detailed sim ever created, and so there was no point in doing 'quests' and the like because of all the potential for natural, interlocking mechanics and the like. However, as that's no longer really on the table in the same way (which is completely understandable) then I'd hate to see it fizzle away due to it not really having any goals/things for the player to do - I think this is a real risk because as much as people will enjoy wandering around the world, it's often difficult to really get absorbed without any sort of purpose (regardless of how basic that purpose is).

Regardless, can't wait for 0.8!

Yeah, I would definitely like to add some (small) quest, ideally similar to what I originally had in mind, although more contained in scale. I think the sort of achievement screen you describe is what I'd go for - maybe you have to find a certain set of cathedrals, castles, people... something like that, something which isn't so small as to be trivial, nor so large as to be impossible, and sufficiently varied to be interesting.

And, also, *thank you* for the second paragraph - it's very kind, and understanding (and accurate). Like I say, I do agree that I need something in there for people to be driven or inclined to do...

Aww, damn. That's kind of depressing. If you ever have to completely stop working on the game, or if it becomes completed, will you ever open source it so that the community can add what was never able to be finished?

I'm afraid I have no intention to open source, but I do want to "cap things off" nicely :).

I would argue that this isn't necessary. There's enough of a fanbase (such as "the two of us and that guy in the corner" can be called a fanbase ;) ) that are happy to play follow-the-devblog for decades to come. The plan is there on the page, we know an actual gamey game will occur eventually if progress continues. The devblog shows that something is happening and the occasional release featuring more stuff helps to remind us that we're not crazy (not entirely, anyway). Mark is a visibly active person on the Internet, not some faceless corporation promising Half-Life 3.

I follow Aurora 4X, Unreal World, Dwarf Fortress and URR. In some ways it's much easier to be invested for the long-term when updates are years apart.

So, please do as you think best, Mark (and let us know if you decide to throw in the towel, of course). But know that some of us don't need to be hooked on "gameability". We've already got one madman providing that for us in Toadyone.

Damn, friend, thank you for such a great and kind comment. Towel isn't going in just yet!

I agree that's the case if Mark is planning to continue development (even if in the long term) - however, if he's going to pretty much finish up (which it's unfortunately sounding like) and there won't be an actual gamey game at the end of it, then I'd encourage something to wrap it all together.

This is mainly because otherwise URR will be relegated to 'the game that almost was', rather than something that's a finished game. I'd imagine a finished product would be more helpful to Mark (in terms of him having a fully released game under his belt) and get the game a wider player base which is always good for everyone. Other than the DF crowd, I feel most of the gaming community would say 'this is a fantastic world but...what do I do?'.

Obviously if Mark ever wanted to come back to it, he could rip out any quest stuff he didn't like or incorporate it into some sort of 'explorers guild' without too much trouble.

All of these thoughts make complete sense :). I really appreciate the comments in this thread, and it's clear I do need to implement some kind of nice quest system, even just something simple and minor. Maybe relic hunting or something... either way, I totally get what you're saying about the need for a "finished game".

I think the most fulfilling achievements are the ones that affect the world. Going down in history for killing a monster, fighting for territory, upgrading or destroying structures, or having my name and achievement written down in public. Dwarf Fortress's death and retirement mechanics are really fascinating, inspired by Angband tombstones. Being a founder of something and coming back to see it still there is also really cool. In Dwarf Fortress I made families of endangered species and retired them in my forts.

Yeah, I like these ideas; that's definitely a direction I'll look into once 0.8 is done.

Certainly agree and all of those would be good, but quite a lot of work to implement I imagine. I feel that a quick list of world 'achievements' (which could just be going to all the xyz's or picking up x of y) that you could tick off would be enough to give those that want a bit of guidance whilst they enjoy the fantastic world that's been created, whilst also being easy enough to implement.

It all boils down to how much time/willpower Mark has left to continue URR - a decent trade system would be just as good, as would all sorts of adventure-y things which would give the game focus, but my main fear is that such a fantastic achievement as URR already is gets lost to the realms of 'unfinished games' just because it didn't have anything structured for the player to do, and I feel that's what the wider gaming community will see it as.

I really do want to add a trade/currency system: the idea of PCG coins is incredibly apealing to me, I have to say, but I'm definitely leaning in the direction of what lots of you have suggested, i.e. some kind of achievement system to create a sense of guidance over this huge/complex world...

In Dwarf Fortress I made families of endangered species and retired them in my forts.

#goals

Good luck on URR, been keeping up for a while!

Hahaha. Thanks friend!

I appreciate the sense of exasperation that Wof As Pofonma felt as a stranger walked up to him and greeted him ceaselessly

Ah, don't we all?

Also, I think I have failed to post not just one, but two updates here in the last little while! Terribly remiss of me, I will get them transferred over here soon...
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3109 on: April 14, 2019, 07:10:15 pm »

More URR progress! I am now down to the final two things before URR 0.8’s release, which are 1) check every line of dialogue as comprehensively as I can, and 2) deal with some strange issues regarding game speed and optimisation which are bothering me. In the mean time, though, the fact we’re now at that point is because I’ve managed to get done all of the following:

– Fixed an issue with leaders failing to generate correctly at night; leaders of civilisations temporarily disabled.
– Fixed a number of issues with synonyms for words in certain dialects producing some very strange linguistic outcomes.
– Fixed some word variables not correctly being replaced with the right words or phrases because of where in the code those particular sentence are generated.
– You now cannot talk to NPCs when asleep; if 0.9 happens I will likely implement a simple process for waking NPCs, but angering them in the process.
– NPCs who have special things you can do with them, besides talking, such as smithing (with a blacksmith) or worshipping (with a priest), no longer crash the game when you select them.
– Guards and soldiers and the like now spawn with armour (although the armour has no pictures – again, if 0.9 happens, that will be a priority).
– A few issues with farmhouses are now fixed.
– NPCs of a certain sort – who are finite in number, but not always important enough to be generated when the world is, such as some priests, some monks, most prisoners – no longer display a range of bugs when they are “normal” rather than “special” versions of those NPCs.
– Fixed (I think) issues with some buildings in tribal societies, and also hospitals in military districts should also now be issue-free.
– The guidebook has been updated with a number of new entries for this new release detailing language, speech, and so forth.
– NPCs can now properly end conversations when they say they’re ending the conversation, instead of just saying they’re done talking, and then continuing to talk by just repeatedly saying they don’t want to talk.
– Fixed a wide range of issues and minor bugs with language generation, grammatical structure, the correct “calling” of other pieces of information, and so forth.
– Resolved a bug where certain kinds of religions didn’t generate backgrounds for their holy books, and then relevant NPCs asked about those books caused a crash when they couldn’t work out what to say.
– Fixed an issue with certain kinds of NPCs spawned in rare circumstances not being able to respond to the “What was your previous job?” question.
– Some guidebook entries no longer display incorrectly in rare circumstances.
– Certain name generation techniques no longer (I think) mix up the genders of the characters they are trying to produce names for.
– Many more questions can now be answered completely, and a handful of others have been given acceptable placeholder responses for the time being.
– NPCs are now generally more willing to talk to you, as until now this was definitely balanced too much in favour of NPCs keeping information private.
– A couple of rare world generation issues have been fixed, primarily involving the creation of names for things like relics (primarily), artworks, books, and the like.
– Fixed issues involving guard schedules within military districts, and the guards not knowing where to go or what to do.
– All ranks of soldiers are now much better at telling you what they actually do.
– Some ranks of soldiers (and some wandering soldiers in cities) didn’t have the “Soldiering” conversation option; this has been fixed.
– Resolved issues with armour for NPCs from nomadic civilizations.
– Fixed a problem with substituting certain words in certain conversation responses if the word was followed by punctuation marks, specifically “!”, “,”, “.”, and “;”.
– Fixed a major and long-term bug involving too many servants or slaves trying to spawn into a mansion if you first set foot in the building at night when everyone is sleeping.
– Clerks and diplomats in embassies now correctly have appropriate old jobs to talk about.
– You can no longer force someone into talking to you again after they end the conversation – they will instead now ignore you.
– Asking people about nearby nomadic or tribal civilisations no longer just involves them telling you about nearby feudal societies…
– Fixed an issue with entering parliamentary buildings sometimes causing clerks to spawn off the map, and therefore have no way to path, and consequently result in a crash.
– Many more linguistic fixes.
– Characters can now accurately tell you what embassies from other nations, if any, are nearby.
– Solved a gigantic bug which took me a long time to figure out, where sometimes there weren’t enough guards being able to spawn in castles. It took many hours to trace it back, but it turned out the game was registering a passing guard outside of the castle as being one of the castle’s guards (incorrectly), and then that cascaded through the rest of the code to tell the castle to spawn fewer guards than it should, and then some places were not being filled up, and so the game collapsed. This was probably the hardest bug to find since resuming development – and had a guard not been passing through the castle district while I was testing other, completely unrelated things, I would never have even known this one existed!









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Mephansteras

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3110 on: April 14, 2019, 07:15:05 pm »

Looking really good!
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High tyrol

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3111 on: April 14, 2019, 10:35:43 pm »

It looks pretty cool
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EuchreJack

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3112 on: April 15, 2019, 02:21:35 pm »

I actually hadn't know that the game could be set in 1700 or have firearms.  That is interesting.

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3113 on: April 16, 2019, 11:58:33 am »

Wow!
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3114 on: April 17, 2019, 12:42:04 pm »

Looking really good!

It looks pretty cool

I actually hadn't know that the game could be set in 1700 or have firearms.  That is interesting.

Wow!

Thank you all!! And yes indeed, it's much more set around the Renaissance / Scientific Revolution than "medieval" times.

And here's the latest update:

--

Continuing to chop down the list of URR stuff to be checked before 0.8’s release! Here’s what has happened in the last couple of weeks:

– Resolved some strange issues with churches, especially if you approach them at night. Priests weren’t sure where to spawn or where to sleep, and random worshippers kept appearing off the map and finding no way to path in to the map, rather than being where they should be. I’m not entirely sure what the cause was – and, indeed, I feel this was working fine a while ago – but these strange behaviours have all now been fixed.
– Fixed a number of conversation options not working correctly when talking to nomadic speakers.
– Fixed a number of conversation options not working correctly when talking to speakers from tribal civilisations.
– Merchants were not always spawning correctly in their shops in town; this has been fixed.
– Merchants also could not always describe to the player what kind of product they sold – the problem was different for merchants in cities, towns, and fortresses, but all three kinds can now correctly tell you about their wares.
– When you insult or compliment someone several times, they no longer say you “asked me that” several times, but instead say “you told me that” (or some close equivalent).
– Asking about laws on violence has distinctive answers now for nomadic and hunter-gatherer civilisations, with particular kinds of concerns and laws relevant to them.
– Asking about laws on trade has different outcomes for nomadic and tribal civilisations.
– Asking about laws on religion has different outcomes for nomadic and tribal civilisations.
– Helmets do not appear correctly when you select someone who is wearing a helmet (no picture yet, but relevant text).
– Tribal people respond correctly to questions about money; all peoples respond correctly to religious questions, especially if they don’t have a specific religious belief; and NPCs correctly state when they aren’t wearing a necklace, rather than trying to tell the player about a necklace that doesn’t actually exist.
– Starting to ask an NPC stuff before saying hello will get them to say something like “Oh, hello there”, or “Oh, good morning”, before they give you the full response.
– All guards (there are at least twenty sorts of places a guard might guard) definitely now correctly talk about their respective charges correctly.
– Fixed obscure bug with some feudal NPCs being unable to remember the correct punishment for certain religious crimes.
– Resolved an equally obscure bug where game would sometimes choose “Monastery” as the word to describe the church of a certain culture (a la “Church”, or “Pagoda”, or “Priory”, etc), thereby potentially generating confusion with actual monasteries.
– Farmers no longer sometimes possess access to teleporters when they really, really, want to get to bed quickly.
– Fixed a number of issues with random NPCs in buildings (other than religious buildings) sometimes spawning at -1,-1, and therefore being unable to path or do anything.
– Fixed a problem with some church generation algorithms which didn’t produce interiors containing sufficient options for NPCs to always work out where to go.
– Improved the generation of insults, greetings, farewell and compliments by removing a number of weird grammatical mistakes (still more to do here).
– Fixed a strange bug where unseen NPCs very very rarely fail to complete their scheduled tasks at the right time in another part of the world map and instead crash the game – this is another where I don’t understand the cause, but it has definitely been resolved.

So, the list continues to shrink, and I’m now basically just checking out schedules and fixing bugs in the conversation system. I must say, though, that it is a little dispiriting that I keep encountering new bugs while trying to fix the old ones, but I take a lot of reassurance from the fact that the speech system has gone from “almost every possible question might lead to the game crashing” (a month ago) to “no question causes a crash, and just a handful of questions are still a bit inaccurate or strange in their responses” (now). Progress is continuing to happen at a pace I’m very comfortable and very pleased with, and I should have more to show in, again, some time later in April. I’ve been travelling a ton for work lately (week back in the UK, week in Sydney, and soon another week travelling in Canada), which has stretched this update out a little, but things are still moving at a nice speed. Thank you all for reading, and see you all soon!
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3115 on: April 17, 2019, 08:41:27 pm »

New bugs always replace old ones! You know it’s working when the new bugs don’t make everything explode, heheh.

Impressed by the update, this is such a long and fascinating project
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3116 on: April 20, 2019, 11:12:37 am »

New bugs always replace old ones! You know it’s working when the new bugs don’t make everything explode, heheh.

Impressed by the update, this is such a long and fascinating project

Thanks Doris! And ha, yes, indeed so; although I am pleased to note that the regularity with which new bugs arise in the testing process is definitely shrinking :)
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FakerFangirl

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3117 on: April 21, 2019, 05:39:01 am »

Neat. I live in Canada and my best friend is in Australia. (We don't meet up often.)
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3118 on: April 21, 2019, 08:02:20 pm »

Neat. I live in Canada and my best friend is in Australia. (We don't meet up often.)

Huh! Yeah, I know a couple of Australians in Canada, and vice versa, too; I don't think I'd quite expected the connection between the two to be as strong as it is (although in hindsight, I probably should have?).
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Ultima Ratio Regum

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Re: Ultima Ratio Regum (0.8 back in development!)
« Reply #3119 on: April 25, 2019, 12:02:13 pm »

Things slowed down a little in the past few weeks due to a lot of unexpected travel and some job negotiations (more on this very soon), but here’s another set of fixes and corrections:

– Fixed a complicated bug which spent a long time to hunt down, and involved guards trying to exchange positions with other guards. Normally if you enter a map grid, relevant NPCs will spawn and play out an appropriate number of actions before you gain control of your character. For example, if a guard entered the map grid twenty turns before you enter the grid, then the guard needs to catch up with those twenty turns in the real grid rather than in the abstract grid. Normally it is possible for a guard in that “interim” period of movement to find the guard they should exchange positions with and exchange positions with them;  however, in some cases this wasn’t happening, and both the new guard and the old guard were standing on top of each other once the player properly entered the map. This, er, shouldn’t have been happening. I eventually discovered it was because in very rare situations, the “old” guard would spawn later than the “new” guard, and so the new guard would walk to where the old guard should be but not find the old guard, then the old guard would spawn on top of them. The new guard is not then programmed to detect being on top of the old guard (as that should never happen!) and so the two would just stand still doing nothing. This has now been fixed! Upon moving the new guard into position, if the new guard is where the old guard is shortly going to spawn, the new guard just takes two steps back; then once they’ve spawned the new guard will meet the old guard properly, and everything will work correctly.
– Resolved an issue where sometimes a set of guards or equivalents, upon returning to a building after leaving that building to sleep, would not be able to figure out where to put themselves if the player entered the map containing that building long after they switched back over with the previous set of guards (I know, it’s a complicated one). I’m not entirely sure what the cause of this was, and I actually think there’s a good chance this was caused by my own playtesting (and fiddling around with saving/loading to test other things) rather than a bug in the game itself, as I’ve never encountered this issue before, and the save file I was testing stuff on I had been playing around with a lot before this bug emerged. Nevertheless, redundancies are important, so I have now implemented a system whereby a generated building stores the initial locations of all guards or equivalents, and if a later guard ever cannot figure out where to return itself to for whatever strange reason, then the guards will look at this master list, find a location which matches their class (Guard, Knight, Sodier, whatever), and an x/y/z coordinate set which hasn’t yet been occupied by a different returning guard, and put themselves there. Sorted.
– Found another issue related to the above where sometimes you would get two guards trying to go to the same location if you returned to a location after a long period away, because one of them would have recognised it was where their guard “partner” was stationed, while the other would see it as a free spot. This has also been fixed.
– Resolved a minor issue with NPCs selecting homes in appropriate districts under certain conditions, particularly if the player has previously been in that map grid.
– Fixed quite a few points where words could be duplicated, such as “that is not a question I want to give an answer to to”, and I’ve now hopefully got to the bottom of the last of these.
– Handled a bug slowing down NPCs who were trying to find a path to staircases in larger buildings, yet spent most of their time dithering around and examining walls in great detail.
– Fixed issue with some soldiers being unable to properly about their ranks with appropriate grammar.
– Handled a very strange issue where iron bars, such as those in jails, dungeons, or between an audience and an arena, very rarely become invisible.
– Handled a problem where Tellers don’t spawn correctly in banks if you first enter the bank after the first day of world generation.
– Changed the name of the speech category “Past Life” to simply “Life”, as this is far more descriptive (since you can ask them about their current job and things like this).
– Fixed issue where plants could not spawn inside a nomadic citadel, and crashed the game.
– Resolved a problem with NPCs who spawn in town halls in towns not having any idea where to go, and getting stuck in an infinite loop of uncertainty.
– Resolved a problem involving NPCs in barracks in towns, not knowing what to do when they decide to go for a wander (unlike in military districts in cities, where there is always something for them to do). These NPCs can now always find something relevant/sensible to do when they decide to move.
– Fixed an issue with some NPCs in taverns being unable to find their way to the door when they’re done drinking (and I do appreciate that there is an obvious comedic interpretation of this particular bug).
– Soldiers in castles no longer crash the game as a result of not knowing what to wear.
– NPCs are now even less likely than they were before to clog up a doorway and thereby block you or anyone else from going through it (I thought this was completely fixed before; it wasn’t; I now once more think it is completely fixed…)
– Wandering versions of important NPCs like priests and the like can no longer be asked questions which would make them crash, such as “what relics are there here?” while they’re walking through the streets and therefore nowhere near any relic of any sort.
– Finally, resolved a bug where sometimes reloading the game, going immediately to fast travel, and taking a particular path (NE or NW after moving N, SE or SW after moving S, etc) will take an infinite amount of time, and the game will attempt to perform 9999999 turns before giving up. I am not entirely clear why this happened, but it no longer does. No infinite hikes for anybody!

So: more progress, getting closer and closer! My list of buildings and conversation possibilities to check is getting shorter and shorter as time goes by, and it has now been well over a week since I found any large bug. This means I’ve almost exhausted everything I know I need to playtest, and once that’s done, I’ll be onto polishing things like menus, displays, information, and the like. More coming in early May!





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