Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Collaborative language creation experiment  (Read 2765 times)

FearfulJesuit

  • Bay Watcher
  • True neoliberalism has never been tried
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 08:43:12 am »

Polysynthesis.
Logged


@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

dreadmullet

  • Bay Watcher
  • Inadequate Comedian
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 04:33:05 pm »

Is punctuation allowed? I would like to change all periods/fullstops into semicolons; Now that I think about it, just remove the semicolon's function entirely;

I also propose a way to show emphasis for text. Instead of using caps or italics, if you want to emphasize a word, put an exclamation mark after it. Example: "No, I don't want that! one, I want this! one;"
Logged

Hubris Incalculable

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2011, 05:33:53 pm »

Er, technically, no, that doesn't really count as a feature. The main point of a language is not to be written, but to be spoken, and therefore I'd prefer a focus on speakable elements of the language. If you would like there to be a spoken method of emphasis, such as tone (which can be readily heard in English), or suffixes/prefixes, there's not a problem with that. But mere conventions of writing are not the focus of this project.

Also, Armok, I think i'll have to nix your idea of non-alphanum whatsit as being unusable. sorry.
Logged
Code: (Bay 12 Lower Boards IRC) [Select]
server = irc.darkmyst.net
channel = #bay12lb

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2011, 08:07:47 pm »

I'm asking you to take on the mantle of creative linguist.

I made a language once. I can help you.

Quote
suggest features

General suggestions:
Equivalency of pronunication to spelling. No special cases or exceptions. If you see a word, you know how to pronounce it.

Every character has a unique sound. No vowels with three different pronunciations. No dipthongs. No "special" cases where the pronunication of one letter changes based on the letters near it. If you want a "sh" sound, then have a "sh" character. If "ti" is pronounced "ti" and "on" is pronounced "on" then "tion" is proncouned "ti-on" not "shun.

Related: no redundant characters or sound overlaps. For example, in english c, s, k, q all make only two sounds. So have only two characters.

Non-importance of syllable stress. mooGOOpi, MOOgoopi and moogooPI are all the same word, and equally correct.

Unique roots. Don't draw upon latin.

Allow use of parenthesis as valid punctuation to resolve cases in which direction of meaning is unclear.

Use the logical conventions for negatives. Double/triple negatives are proper, but evaluate mathematically.

No redundant articles. Only articles that convey meaning.

Allow leaving things unspecified to simply be unspecified rather than incorrect.

Be precise in your definitions of words. Do not give english synonyms. There's no reason for there to be one to one equivalency, and in fact, it's possible to create very interesting things by deliberately having conceptual mismatches.

A few noteworthy things I did in the language I made, but don't necessarily recommended

Sound-based roots rather than syllable-based roots. Specifically, I associated the "ah" sound with "masculine" the "oh" sound with feminine, the "l" sound with higher spiritual phenomenon and the "k" sound with lower phenomenon. However, gender was handled in the sense of "acting" vs "receiving" rather than in the romance language sense. Nouns were not "assigned" an arbitrary gender, but words that contained meanings associated with active or passive principals were given matching sounds. If I were to do it again, I'd consider an alchemical 3 base rather than a gender 2 base.

He/she/it pronouns were handled by allowing the speaker to convey whether a noun was perceived as conscious. Pronouns were altogether optional, gender was conveyed as a modifier rather than a pronoun, and it was grammatically correct to, for example, grammatically imply that a rock was a conscious entity, or a human as a non-conscious entity. The difference was one of meaning and implied relation to the speaker rather than anything fundamental to the language itself.

I did a rather complicated thing that I honestly don't recommend...but I reduced all words to verb, noun and modifier. No other types of words, and no modification of word by suffix. All verbs began and ended in vowels, all nouns began and ended in consonants, and all modifiers began and ended in one of each. Modifiers could be applied to nouns or verbs, but not to modifiers. You could, for example, say "ball blue big" to mean "The ball is big and blue." But there was no grammatical equivalent for how you might say in english "I ran very fast." instead of merely "I ran fast." because both "very" and "fast" bound to "ran" as opposed to "very" binding to "fast" like it does in english. The system did work, but it required such different thinking to construct sentences of similar meaning that the intended goal of simplification was...sort of questionable whether it was achieved. However, the structure did resolve certain grammatical limitations in english. For example, because of the way time-sense modifiers could be applied, it was possible to casually describe some very complicated time travel phenomenon that would be difficult to explain in english. For example, something like "The me(of the past) ate(in the future) the apple(from your present)." was completely standard grammar.

Left-to-right verb relations. This had implications that I didn't anticipate, but the idea was that A verb B implied a consistent type of relationship between A and B. This is not so in several language. For example, in english, you can say "the teacher taught me" and you can say "I was taught by the teacher." The direction of meaning of the verb can be altered by articles. I eliminated articles and made direction consistent. The result was a sort-of simplification at the expense of having to think more about how to construct sentences because familiar patterns in english sometimes didn't work in my created language.

I used a somewhat formal system of pronouns and implied subject/verb handling, whereby nouns and verbs were both "implied" based on previous usage and pronouns were generally unnecessary. For example, in english, you can say "I bought a ball. It's blue." "It" in the second sentence is understood to be the ball from the previous sentence. In my language, "it" was unnecessary because the subject was understood to be carried over. So, "I bought a ball. Blue." Would have the same meaning. Further, verbs could also be carried over in the same way. For example, "I bought a ball. Towel." would mean in english "I bought a ball. I also bought a towel." Further, the "I" pronoun was always implied when no pronoun was not specified or implied. And as mentioned before, no redundant articles. So, "Bought ball. Towel." would mean "I bought a ball, and also a towel." Further, in addition to the I pronoun, "exist" and "here" and "now" were implied by default in all sentences unless specified or implied via carry-over. For example, one could simply say "Bear" and the implied meaning would be "There is a bear here right now." One could say "Eating" and that would mean "I am eating here right now." Some of this is similarly understood in english, but not in a way we generally think about. I formalized it, and doing so had some interesting implications. Most amusing for me personally, was that in the absence of speech at all, one could always be assumed to be saying "I exist, here, right now."


Virex

  • Bay Watcher
  • Subjects interest attracted. Annalyses pending...
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2011, 08:55:48 pm »

Those features you listed make the language sound very sterile and engineered. Real languages have exceptions to the rules and exceptions to the exceptions.
Logged

Max White

  • Bay Watcher
  • Still not hollowed!
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 09:21:22 pm »

Only first person tense!
For example: Do I want me to get me a donut?

Because fuck practicality.

Hubris Incalculable

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2011, 11:40:38 pm »

No, Max. I'm sorry, that just ain't happening. somewhat impractical is fine, but unusable is not.
Logged
Code: (Bay 12 Lower Boards IRC) [Select]
server = irc.darkmyst.net
channel = #bay12lb

qwertyuiopas

  • Bay Watcher
  • Photoshop is for elves who cannot use MSPaint.
    • View Profile
    • uristqwerty.ca, my current (barren) site.
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2011, 11:44:53 pm »

If you want something impractical, simply mandate that only sentences with exactly 13 syllables are valid, or, worse, drastically alter the meaning based on the number of vowels in the sentence as a whole. Either of these could plausibly develop in a culture of extreme superstition or religion. Perhaps any sentence with exactly 11 occurances of a specific sound is interpreted in the context of a vague set of gods/ancestors and telling a story that supposedly explains how you should live your life, obviously in a very abstract way that doesn't make sense at first, if at all. Oh, and the king has claimed those sentences with 10 or 12 of them, and they are to be used exclusively when discussing his declarations, laws, rules, and how shiny his crown is.

But you probably want something at least a bit more practical.
Logged
Eh?
Eh!

LordBucket

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2011, 08:06:19 pm »

Those features you listed make the language sound very sterile and engineered.

Actually no. It was naturally alliterate because of the way sound roots were tied to concepts. When speaking on topics like love, truth and beauty, it sounded naturally lyrical. When speaking of death and murder it sounded naturally harsh. If you say out loud "lillies are lithe and lovely" that sentence rolls very easily off the tongue. Whereas if you say "cornish kyrgyzstani gaming killers" that has a distinctly different, and not nearly so "pretty" sound to it. Word sounds were deliberately selected to naturally form appropriate alliterations simply by speaking on particular subjects.

Also, the modifier-word structure produced a kind of grammatical humor that doesn't exist in english. In english you have puns based on multiple meanings of words. My language had no synonyms, so that didn't happen. But the way modifier-words tended to be one or two syllables and consistently placed after nouns and verbs, and since the word order of modifiers didn't matter, it was possible to construct sentences that had "sentence puns" rather than "word puns." Difficult to give an example in english. But to give you an idea: to "edit" is to prepare or modify written material. An "editor" is a person who does so. But "or" is also an article meaning one of two possibilities. And an "editor print" is the version of a written material after it has been edited. But "edit or print" could be taken as a command to either make changes or print material as it is with no edits. Puns of that sort are difficult to make in the english language, but they were very easy to make in mine. Wasn't intentional. But the grammar tended to naturally produce it.

Hubris Incalculable

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2011, 08:41:47 pm »

LordBucket, your phoneme/character restrictions seem to be coming out of a dislike of the various (and inconsistent) orthographies that come from the Latin alphabet. It's easy enough to create a new writing system, in which all the phonemes are identified by a single symbol.

Edit: As a side note, i personally like the idea of phonemic mood connotations, so there are variations of each word (or even alternative words) depending on how you feel about it.

e.g. Kakweri, Falaru, and Gorta all mean "tree", but the /k/ and /w/ phoneme indicate a liking, /f/ and /l/ indicate disinterest, and /g/ and /t/ indicate disliking.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 08:47:19 pm by hubris_incalculable »
Logged
Code: (Bay 12 Lower Boards IRC) [Select]
server = irc.darkmyst.net
channel = #bay12lb

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2011, 09:04:18 pm »

Ook!

Ook, ook ook-oook; ook ooook....

Ook?

(But IKWYM.  And I was tempted to write something Ook!-compatible, but I suspect I'm already way off-topic.)

On-topic, I've already said I'd like it to be not artificial-looking.  Which, given it will be artificial, means that we've got to be artistic about it.  I'm also aware that it's not me that is looking to create this language (as yet totally unsolidified, despite all the (in some cases, mutually conflicting) suggestions put forward), but this'd be my personal preference.  And I really wish I had something more constructive to add, rather than this make this meta-discussion point.
Logged

Hubris Incalculable

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2011, 09:59:17 pm »

late @Biag: Hmm. Given that one of my favorite parts features of linguistics is phonology, I'm gonna call in the phonology (but perhaps not the orthography) of one of my previous linguistic attempts, which is rife with my own favorite phonemes, to be picked apart and modified for this lang by those who wish:
Code: (base phonology) [Select]
Phonology

Consonants (C)
/p/ p
/b/ b
/t/ t
/d/ d
/k/ k
/g/ g
/r/ r
/f/ f
/s/ s
/sh/ ʃ
/kh/ x
/rh/ ʁ
/lh/ ɬ
/j/ j
/l/ l
/m/ m
/n/ n

Acceptable Consonant Clusters (CC)
/pr/ pr
/prh/ pʁ
/pj/ pj
/pl/ pl
/br/ br
/brh/ bʁ
/bj/ bj
/bl/ bl
/tr/ tr
/trh/ tʁ
/tj/ tj
/tl/ tl
/dr/ dr
/drh/ dʁ
/dj/ dj
/dl/ dl
/kr/ kr
/krh/ kʁ
/kj/ kj
/kl/ kl
/fr/ fr
/frh/ fʁ
/fj/ fj
/fl/ fl
/sr/ sr
/sj/ sj
/sl/ sl
/shr/ ʃr
/shl/ ʃl

Vowels (V)
/a/ ɑ
/e/ ɛ
/i/ i
/o/ o
/u/ u

Diphthongs (for all syllabic purposes, this is categorized as V)
/ai/ aɪ
/oi/ oɪ
/au/ aʊ
/eu/ ɛʊ

Syllable structures
CV
CCV
CVCo
CCVCo
VCo

There are between 1 and 5 syllables per word, with the coda of the syllable being limited to /r/, /s/, /n/, and /l/, except where loanwords are involved

@starver, i agree, this should definitely not be a robotically regular language. it should have plenty of inconsistencies, but not so many that it is impossible to learn.
Logged
Code: (Bay 12 Lower Boards IRC) [Select]
server = irc.darkmyst.net
channel = #bay12lb

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Collaborative language creation experiment
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2011, 10:17:22 pm »

A quick addition of something I'd been hoping to include in an earlier post: the reference to this, as a sort of exemplum[1].  Only just got around to finding it after being diverted into re-reading a few of the other strips in the series[2].

If you want to take any part of it seriously (whether that be the anarchic and unplanned freeform of Huttese or the exact opposite in Lojban), be my guest, but I was thinking of it as more illustrative than prescriptive/proscriptive[4].  And it may just be a distraction.


BTW, I like the base phonology, that's just ninjaed[5] itself into the thread.  Not analysed it, yet, but I certainly like the initial look of it.

Spoiler: Off-topic footnotes (click to show/hide)
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]