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[lumin]

I just wanted to get feedback from you about something I've been thinking about for a while.  

Would it be a good or bad thing for a big-name publisher to pick up Dwarf Fortress and sell it at <pick> with a shiny box, manual, professional graphics and easy-to-use interface?

I've actually heard this rumor flying around the web.  They're saying that it is simply inevitable for DF to get noticed and eventually become published and/or ported to another gaming platform.

I think a lot of people would immediately say how awesome that would be, but I'm starting to think that it may be a bad idea.  Am I the only one that thinks that the Lord of the Rings books have been ruined (maybe a better word is raped) since Peter Jackson made them into movies?  I mean, it's no longer cool to see Farmer Maggot in Nethack (or any other game for that matter), and when I read the books now, I just see Elijah Wood, instead of Frodo.  I can't impress my friends any more that I've read just about all of Tolkiens works, since they've "been there, done that".

I think this would have the same effect on a cool, "culty" game like DF if it went mainstream.  In our heads we would see an image instead of an imagination. Instead of Toady's vision, we would see someone elses interpretation of it.  The community and forums would be overrun with the not-so-mature crowd and the awesome player-made wiki would simply become a bystandard to Gamespot's and IGN's FAQs and player guides.  Teaching someone how to create their first irrigation system, would no longer be a penchant to only the most dedicated player.  Instead of the great player-written Role-play stories, we would see a lot more meta-game stories.

I know this can happen because it's happened so many times with other overnight-hits.  Think of how XCOM, Civilization and Sim City started - they are ingrained in our minds as our childhood favorites and considered among the greatest of all time.  Now think of the franchise today: Graphically watered-down, simplified b@$tards of the originals.

Maybe it is inevitable.  Maybe, success spawns this sort of thing.  Maybe Toady needs to stop making DF so awesome, so it can avoid these pitfalls.  But that would be an oxymoron in and of itself.

[Armok]

I agre whit you 100% on all points, this would be the worst thing that could ever happen.

DF is very much more that a game to me, I canont think of one good thing in my life that has not come from DF, my entire identity is based of it.

I would literary, and whitoute joking sacrefice, say... my leg (or any other bodypart exept hands, brain or both eyes (needed to play DF)) if that was what was needed to stop this from hapening.

[ShunterAlhena]

I am virtually certain that no "rewrite" and "clone" of DF will be attempted - the very essence of DF is its naturalistic detail, the goblin blood on the second toe, left leg. A major studio might churn out "Goblin Tower" but then it will turn out be just Sims in Fantasyland - "been there, done that" as you said, no new market, no reason to invest. So we can rest assured that there will be no DF other than Toady's; weak clones at best that do not threaten Armok's throne.

And if this is the case we have to put our faith in him that he'll not break and handle over code and license to a team of inepts - and based on what we know about him, and the years of dedicated work, I have no fears about this.

So yes, DF might become immensely popular, but it is very resilient and should not be warped by this attention. Instead, it should prosper and grow as an U-turn of donations flood in.

I myself am bothered by the possibility of the "watering up" of this board by the immature, but so far no signs of that.
This is a very real danger though and I had a pretty wicked idea - what about an "elite" club? Once we start seeing symptoms of h4x0rs and uncontrollable "sup i just had an elefant keel my fortress, wat should i do", maybe a hidden board could be established for old members and for those in the new community who demonstrate able typing and language skills. So we could actually preserve and enrich the current environment, while also allowing for "n00bs" who bring in the big buck for Toady!

[Torak]

quote:Originally posted by ShunterAlhena:
<STRONG>
This is a very real danger though and I had a pretty wicked idea - what about an "elite" club? Once we start seeing symptoms of h4x0rs and uncontrollable "sup i just had an elefant keel my fortress, wat should i do", maybe a hidden board could be established for old members and for those in the new community who demonstrate able typing and language skills. So we could actually preserve and enrich the current environment, while also allowing for "n00bs" who bring in the big buck for Toady!</STRONG>

And then why dont we just label the entire forum as Non-Elites ad Elites, so us elitists could talk to other elitists about how bad the non-elites are.

[Deon]

I'm a man who likes those "watered" Tolkien-based movies and civilization 4/simcity 4. But I agree that these projects greatly changed my view of original things, I don't think it's that bad, but it's not good either.
So even while I'm not that conservative, I like to dedicate my time to DF because of it's unique features and gameplay. And I don't think I want it to be changed.
I've played "dungeon crawl stone soup" and nethack "eagle eye", those neat things with interface and graphics. But they will never replace those days spent for ADOM or original Nethack.
I can tell the same about Ultima Online (2d client) - no MMORPG can make me to have equal feelings as I had with this game in my youth. It's all about classics and unique creativity.

[ April 14, 2008: Message edited by: Deon ]

[Willfor]

Nothing is inevitable in terms of being taken over. A person who doesn't make their project publically owned is under no obligation to sell out due to stockholder pressure.

[lumin]

quote:Nothing is inevitable in terms of being taken over. A person who doesn't make their project publically owned is under no obligation to sell out due to stockholder pressure.

Yeah, but don't tell me Toady wouldn't be tempted by an offer from EA Games for say, a million dollars or two.  Having his family set up for life would start sounding like a pretty nice return for a pet project venture that has only paid his rent up until now.

[Mud]

I can think of at least one person who would probably consider that a bad thing ...

[Cthulhu]

EA cannot be allowed to come within ten miles of DF, it's too evil.

[Armok]

quote:Originally posted by lumin:
<STRONG>

Yeah, but don't tell me Toady wouldn't be tempted by an offer from EA Games for say, a million dollars or two.  Having his family set up for life would start sounding like a pretty nice return for a pet project venture that has only paid his rent up until now.</STRONG>

No, because I would take a loan on an greater sum, puting myself in debth for the rest of my life, and donate it.
Then I would kill myself because they took my computor.

[ricemastah]

Thank you Armok, we all know your intense and unrivaled love and loyalty to both the game and Toady. But seriously, I doubt eve toady could hold out against a really high offer on DF, if one was ever made. Really guys the only thing we can do to make sure DF never gets 'mainstream' is to DONATE to Toady!!! So get going guys I just donated another 50 to him, so what are you guys waiting for?

[umiman]

Might I go out on a limb and say you really have nothing to fear because as is, no developer would buy Dwarf Fortress... yet.

It's too complicated, and the potential market base is too small. Furthermore, deny or not, a huge portion of the games market (that these big companies are interested in) lie in consoles. The game is also very hard to market, as you no doubt know when trying to get your friends to try it, due to the intense learning curve and lack of "real" graphics.

Whether Tarn Adams is a start-up developer or not, time will tell, but with the product as it is currently, I'm afraid my business-gut-instinct itself would tell me this is an investment that would take too much time and resources for relatively small gain.

And as for all those concerns that EA or some other company would buy the name and butcher it to some sims variant... explain to me... wouldn't it be cheaper for them to just design a game like that with their existing resources? Why go out of their way to purchase some minor player, put up with him, then come out with something completely different from what they bought?

edit: I'm pretty sure this will come up since it's a generally accepted misconception: Big companies get big for a reason. There's a damn good reason why they print money and we mow lawns. They know well enough when they buy minor companies what to leave alone and what to push out the window. EA knew not to mess with Will Wright's Sims when it was first under production. Activision knows not to mess with Blizzard.

[ April 14, 2008: Message edited by: umiman ]

[Slappy Moose]

Yeah, it would pretty much make the game suck unless Toady was in full control of all the game development, and everything put into the game would be checked by him.

Basically, unless Toady himself is over viewing the game production, it just wouldn't be DF.

Of course, giving Toady a 50 person team and a 5 million dollar budget would be cool, but I'm not sure if that is what Toady wants (I doubt it) and I think that part of DF is the cult following it has.

There are not that many dedicated DF players, so I think it makes playing the game more personal, and going on the forum is great because we kind of know each other (sounds cheesy, but you get the point).

[McDoomhammer]

Never having met the man, I will refrain from any speculation regarding the inner workings of our favourite amphibian creator's mind.  But I do hope that selling out never happens, even if that hope may (or may not) be hopelessly idealistic.  DF has a soul, and commercialisation and the transition from one man's pet project to another deadline for a development team would change it irrevocably.  Personally, I hate the changes those things bring about, everything from elven shield-surfing to the hordes of dunces who inevitably descend on what were small communities- accompanied by intelligent and worthwhile people, to be sure, but ultimately leaving others bitterly muttering "I liked it before it was popular" all the same.

No, I can't see this as a good thing at all.  I wince every time someone posts 'Hey, you could publicise the game by doing x'.  Articles are published from time to time which expose people who might take an interest.  Word of mouth spreads to people who need to know.  The rest... why?  It's still an alpha devlopment, after all.

[Solara]

quote:Originally posted by ShunterAlhena:
<STRONG>I am virtually certain that no "rewrite" and "clone" of DF will be attempted - the very essence of DF is its naturalistic detail, the goblin blood on the second toe, left leg. A major studio might churn out "Goblin Tower" but then it will turn out be just Sims in Fantasyland - "been there, done that" as you said, no new market, no reason to invest. So we can rest assured that there will be no DF other than Toady's; weak clones at best that do not threaten Armok's throne.
</STRONG>

This pretty much sums up my views. Even if you slap pretty graphics and a new interface on DF it'll never be a mainstream game unless you basically strip out everything that makes it DF. The insane amount of detail, learning curve, etc. are what makes it great but they also mean it'll probably always be relegated to a niche audience. And I don't really see a big company going through the effort and spending the money to convince Toady to part with the rights when the fantasy version of the Sims or updated Dungeon Keeper or whatever mass-marketable game they really want to make will be different enough that there wouldn't be enough similarities to make copyrights an issue in the first place.

I think DF will always remain indie, though that doesn't have to mean obscure and unknown. I don't really understand why so-called fans of the game seem to be so against other people finding out how amazing it is, like we were never new ourselves... Personally I hope to see it become as popular as possible and net Toady a steady income of donations in the process.  

As for the fears about the forum, calm down, nothing to be afraid my good fellows! I know the 'Halo kids' out on the 'interwebs' are scary and all, but the unwashed masses you all seem so terrified of are not the sort to enjoy games with lots of micromanagement, and they won't stick around long even if they do somehow manage to find our elite community and disrupt our intellectual discussions with their prehistoric grunting. I assure you, these troglodytes will quickly become bored and confused, and once they wander off we may don our dapper hats and monocles and resume our delightful tea parties forthwith!  :roll:

[ April 14, 2008: Message edited by: Solara ]