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[smoke_th]

So, recently i was wondering why the hell df eats so many resources, and why its so slow on new-version release. Than, i revisited google, and he told me, that df is closed source. Well, that didn't go anywhere closer to my expectations.
And i asking myself one question- "WHY?! WHAT KIND OF SOCIAL LIFE DOES THAT GUY HAS?!(sorry, wrong quote)".
But seriously, why?

Game itself is massive...well, you all know its massive as hell. But my complain is simple - author doing it mostly alone. And i bet he mostly sucks at large structures optimizations. No offence, but have you seen how modern databases work? MySQL, PostgreSQL, hell even firebird - with even medium database for, to example this forum its much more gigantic than single session in dwarf fortress fortress mode. I mean, sure its not realtime, untill people don't starting to spam messages simultaneously, but than it still holds if we're talking about  around 200-300 peoples.
Prime df slowdown is works around moving creatures with loads of integer and boolean data. Again, if somebody will quote this

Why say 500... I have seen programs 10 years old that had multiple thousands with little slowdown. (Darwinia)
I have a sneaky suspicion though that they use massively simplified pathfinding and job finding.  Also dwarf fortress really does not track 100 dwarves, it tracks 100 dwarves, 100,000 stones, 3000 flutes, 5000 body parts 5,000,000 contaminants, 2,000,000 separate temperatures, 56,000 fluid tiles....

he will show that he is arrogant dumb###k in generic programming.
Objects which do not have simple path-finding ai, neither realtime random generator calls (dwarf can be taken by mood, it can hit other dwarf etc.) has almost no weight - loop-cycle threats them as pieces of map itself, but in stand-alone name-space ("it can be picked up by creature, it can be moved by water stream, but otherwise its passive so i don't need to work on it every game cycle - just check its condition"-says game engine).
But i digress.
//The next part of message addressed to developer of df.
for (user=0, user++, database[user]<gameauthor.number+1)//Indian coding they say. To hell with them i say.
{
Guy, developer, nerd if you wish (no offence, just don't know how you call yourself). I understand you don't like when people touching your hobby creation, but, in the love of f#ck, dwarf fortress deserves a bit more than regular hobby-workaround. Its not like df is another tetris clone. Its complex sandbox game with tonns and tonns of different types of fun - starting from masochistic fun (loosing is fun eh), economic simulation fun, tactical rts fun etc... And people like it. Alot. Even more. Infinitely.
So, i dare you, create sourceforge project and place df under GPLv3 license...or if you're kind LGPL license. And let people contribute into it. You know df isn't simple game so i bet there is some good programmers playing it, which will contribute helluvalot optimizations, maybe some new ideas if you wish.
Don't believe me? Take a look at spring-rts. Its brilliant example how small 3d-viewer for replays of Total Annihilation can grow into full project with legacy of total annihilation files, but maintain itself new, fresh, flexible and powerful engine. All because of contributors. There is large community now (around 100 users which actively developing games for it and 20 developers which maintain code).
So. To sum-up or tl;dr - df needs opensource. Really. Really-really. Imagine possibilities - multi-threading, cuda support, optimizations, usage of databases instead of plain text files etc.
And even more - strict work with new dimensions (isometrical, 3d) if you wish, good mouse support (not only for d) (again if you wish). etc.

So, i hope you'll think about it.
}
//end of message

[UltraValican]

Toady's addressed this, he'll make the game open source when:
A. Its finished
B. He's dead( unless the death is suspicious I.E some jackass kills him for the code instead of using a gawddamn flash drive.)
Also, this has been suggested several times before.

Second, Who are you tell Toady what his project deserves? You didn't commission it. This is Toady's masterpiece, if he wants to turnaround and Make Dwarf Fortress about magical school dwarfettes battling tentacle demons well....... its his project...

[King DZA]

Something tells me...English may not be your mother language. Not that that's a problem, of course. Welcome to the forums and all that crap. Allow me to contribute an entirely useless reply to this most intriguing topic of yours:

Game itself is massive...well, you all know its massive as hell.

Actually, It's even more massive than hell, considering hell only takes up the lower levels of any given map.

[smoke_th]

Toady's addressed this, he'll make the game open source when:
A. Its finished
B. He's dead( unless the death is suspicious I.E some jackass kills him for the code instead of using a gawddamn flash drive.)
Also, this has been suggested several times before.

Second, Who are you tell Toady what his project deserves? You didn't commission it. This is Toady's masterpiece, if he wants to turnaround and Make Dwarf Fortress about magical school dwarfettes battling tentacle demons well....... its his project...

Humans usually changing their mind.
Anyway, it will not be finished soon till its closedsource. Also its definitely dumb to develop such huge project alone.

Something tells me...English may not be your mother language. Not that that's a problem, of course. Welcome to the forums and all that crap. Allow me to contribute an entirely useless reply to this most intriguing topic of yours:

Game itself is massive...well, you all know its massive as hell.

Actually, It's even more massive than hell, considering hell only takes up the lower levels of any given map.

Yes, english not my mother language, sorry about my shitty english than. And thanks for warm welcome

[MrWiggles]

He doesnt develop it, by himself. He does the coding by himself, but he and ThreeToes design the game together. He's also gotten help from Bruagn(sp).


And... Open Source isn't superior to Close Source.

As the other conversations on this topic, have explored, Open Source doesnt mean that development would be faster, or better. There also the fact that Toady greatly prefers to program by himself.

Open Source, doesnt really promise anything, nor is it a magical solution.

[smoke_th]

He doesnt develop it, by himself. He does the coding by himself, but he and ThreeToes design the game together. He's also gotten help from Bruagn(sp).


And... Open Source isn't superior to Close Source.

As the other conversations on this topic, have explored, Open Source doesnt mean that development would be faster, or better. There also the fact that Toady greatly prefers to program by himself.

Open Source, doesnt really promise anything, nor is it a magical solution.

Closed source only superior when you has income from your project. For non-profit projects open-source is the only way.

[MrWiggles]

He doesnt develop it, by himself. He does the coding by himself, but he and ThreeToes design the game together. He's also gotten help from Bruagn(sp).


And... Open Source isn't superior to Close Source.

As the other conversations on this topic, have explored, Open Source doesnt mean that development would be faster, or better. There also the fact that Toady greatly prefers to program by himself.

Open Source, doesnt really promise anything, nor is it a magical solution.

Closed source only superior when you has income from your project. For non-profit projects open-source is the only way.

Not one is superior to the other, they both have their pro's and con's.

But that statement, just weird. There plenty of monetary models for Open and Closed source projects.

[knutor]

df is closed source

Yup. 

I hope it stays that way.  If more than one programmer joins in, then usually cash is sought in some format, or some kind of team bonus is requested.  Or one of them starts lying.  Like the case with Master of Orions 3.  Remember that debacle.  One Dev wrote it was going to be a 5X experience, turned out to be only 4X, with lousy AI, and a quarky crash prone GUI.  And that piece of junk sold for 50 bucks at release.  Now its not worth them giving me .50 cents.

Heck the one Dev said it was going to have online play.  It never did.  See all their lies, cost them lawsuits, and many returns.  Its game companies like Quicksilver and Atari, that kill the PC gaming industry.  Buy it before you try it.  Agree to no return, before you, even open the box.  Thats crap, for dumb consumers.  Not me.

Dev teams from what I have experienced are just one guy anyway.  One guy approving things.  He's gotta know whats all going on anyway.  One guy with a big chip on his shoulder usually, demanding customers jump through all kinds of hoops to obtain a pixel, here and there.  WOW, making us download their patches via a turrent app.  Instead of doing it themselves.  Your recommending he become a shyster, a snake oil salesman. 

Toady, is giving us the mothership, without making us jump through any hoops.  Amen to that. See what dev teams usually suffer from one or two know-it-all, blow-hearts wanting to take it mainstream, which further thins out the community of hardcore gamers, and kills what makes it unique.  Dev teams usually want to sell DLC at extraordinary prices.  They want to micro profit off a point system to sell us virtual pegasus mounts, stupid hats, and loot items. 

Nah, the smart thing to do, is to just do, what is being done.  Toady knows his stuff.  The dumb thing, the thing every other money grubbing bastard does, or plans to do, is buy tools to write code with.  Waste what little resources a gaming company has on sale gimmicks.  Ya don't need tools to write code, ya need intelligence, testing and feedback.

Nah, I prefer the two brothers do it, all themselves.  It'll be better, in the end.  And heck, they might even be able to sell it, and retire.  Its not like others haven't helped out so far, with mods anyway, where they could.  That's enough open source. 

Could it be done faster in open source? Yup.  Would the player benefit?  Nope.  It'd be copied and sold, and then left to die.  It'll get done when its done.  Til then what we have is plenty to play with.  I only wish more game developers were like Toady.  These brothers are men among mice. 

Sincerely,
Knutor

[smoke_th]

df is closed source

Yup. 

I hope it stays that way.  If more than one programmer joins in, then usually cash is sought in some format, or some kind of team bonus is requested.  Or one of them starts lying.  Like the case with Master of Orions 3.  Remember that debacle.  One Dev wrote it was going to be a 5X experience, turned out to be only 4X, with lousy AI, and a quarky crash prone GUI.  And that piece of junk sold for 50 bucks at release.  Now its not worth them giving me .50 cents.

Heck the one Dev said it was going to have online play.  It never did.  See all their lies, cost them lawsuits, and many returns.  Its game companies like Quicksilver and Atari, that kill the PC gaming industry.  Buy it before you try it.  Agree to no return, before you, even open the box.  Thats crap, for dumb consumers.  Not me.

Dev teams from what I have experienced are just one guy anyway.  One guy approving things.  He's gotta know whats all going on anyway.  One guy with a big chip on his shoulder usually, demanding customers jump through all kinds of hoops to obtain a pixel, here and there.  WOW, making us download their patches via a turrent app.  Instead of doing it themselves.  Your recommending he become a shyster, a snake oil salesman. 

Toady, is giving us the mothership, without making us jump through any hoops.  Amen to that. See what dev teams usually suffer from one or two know-it-all, blow-hearts wanting to take it mainstream, which further thins out the community of hardcore gamers, and kills what makes it unique.  Dev teams usually want to sell DLC at extraordinary prices.  They want to micro profit off a point system to sell us virtual pegasus mounts, stupid hats, and loot items. 

Nah, the smart thing to do, is to just do, what is being done.  Toady knows his stuff.  The dumb thing, the thing every other money grubbing bastard does, or plans to do, is buy tools to write code with.  Waste what little resources a gaming company has on sale gimmicks.  Ya don't need tools to write code, ya need intelligence, testing and feedback.

Nah, I prefer the two brothers do it, all themselves.  It'll be better, in the end.  And heck, they might even be able to sell it, and retire.  Its not like others haven't helped out so far, with mods anyway, where they could.  That's enough open source. 

Could it be done faster in open source? Yup.  Would the player benefit?  Nope.  It'd be copied and sold, and then left to die.  It'll get done when its done.  Til then what we have is plenty to play with.  I only wish more game developers were like Toady.  These brothers are men among mice. 

Sincerely,
Knutor

Tl;dr...look at springrts please?

[G-Flex]

Oh god, not this argument again. It's been done so many times, and the pros and cons weighed so many times, it just isn't worth it.

I'm going to channel Footkerchief here and remind everyone here to use the search button, find the other umpteen threads discussing it, and just look at those instead. I highly doubt there's more to be said on the matter.

[MrWiggles]

Who cares about springRTS?

[GreatWyrmGold]

He doesnt develop it, by himself. He does the coding by himself, but he and ThreeToes design the game together. He's also gotten help from Bruagn(sp).


And... Open Source isn't superior to Close Source.

As the other conversations on this topic, have explored, Open Source doesnt mean that development would be faster, or better. There also the fact that Toady greatly prefers to program by himself.

Open Source, doesnt really promise anything, nor is it a magical solution.

Closed source only superior when you has income from your project. For non-profit projects open-source is the only way.

...Toady's only (or at least main) source of income is donations to help DF.

[knutor]

Tl;dr...look at springrts please?

That looks cool, I'll have to give it a try.  Thanks for the suggestion, never heard of Spring before. 

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Raddish]

Open sourcing the gmae would lead to 100 different versions with what different people thing the game should be, all of which would likely either make no progress at all or would start to move far away from Toady's own vision of the game.  No 2 people would have the same idea for the game, which is good for modding a game thats made but could be awkward for open source development. 

Also He himself is happy to make the game at his own pace and release it when each part is done.  He isn't rushing to make it or, I hope, stressed about the speed of progress on it.  There is no good reason for the game to be open source when it's creator is happy with how he is working on it while it's closed source.

[smoke_th]

Open sourcing the gmae would lead to 100 different versions with what different people thing the game should be, all of which would likely either make no progress at all or would start to move far away from Toady's own vision of the game.  No 2 people would have the same idea for the game, which is good for modding a game thats made but could be awkward for open source development. 

Also He himself is happy to make the game at his own pace and release it when each part is done.  He isn't rushing to make it or, I hope, stressed about the speed of progress on it.  There is no good reason for the game to be open source when it's creator is happy with how he is working on it while it's closed source.

Should i say that you don't understand opensource? Should i say that you're arrogant? You probably know it.
Opensource development always brings main team which uses to example some private irc channel, or even better skype channel, and talks about what should they'll do, planning, doing programming work etc. If you really think that opensource is chaotical development - than i gratz you - you know NOTHING about development cycle. Please die.