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Author Topic: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!  (Read 10524 times)

Lordraymond

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2011, 03:28:59 pm »

Dwarf Fortress: The only game where people will hold a logical discussion about why dwarves are putting on clothes.
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Fishbulb

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2011, 04:17:42 pm »

- What do the naked dwarves own/have in their closets? What do the dressed/partially dressed dwarves own?

It varies. Most of them, nothing. Some of them have claimed a sock or shoe or whatever, and of those some have moved them to their cabinets while others have left them lay.

- Do you have extra, unowned clothing in stockpiles?

Quite a lot of it actually, yes.

- What is your ECONOMY setting in d_init.txt?

Off, but my understanding was that that flag does literally nothing in the current version anyway. I could be totally wrong about that.

- What is the military/miner/woodcutter/hunter status of the naked/dressed dwarves?

No correlation on the miners and woodcutters. I have two of each, and one of each is partially clothed while the other is starkers. In other words, one miner and one woodcutter have put on some clothing while the other miner and other woodcutter haven't. Each miner and woodcutter have a pick and an axe respectively, obvi.

My military are uniformed with replace-clothing on, so I don't think that's illuminating. They're wearing what they're supposed to be wearing.

I have no hunters.

I suspect that they can't wear items that they own.

Ah, an interesting idea. I didn't look at every last dwarf, but I just skimmed around and didn't find anybody wearing anything claimed. Everything I found that was being worn was unowned. I got excited for a second when I found somebody carrying an owned item, but then I noticed it was described as "hauled" and I'd caught the dwarf doing a "store owned item" job, carrying her sheep wool robe back to his cabinet in her bedroom. So you might be on to something there; there might be some interaction between items that are owned and items which can be picked up and equipped. Maybe the wonky thing in the game is that no item can be both claimed and worn at the same time?
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2011, 05:32:15 pm »

...
I suspect that they can't wear items that they own.

Ah, an interesting idea. I didn't look at every last dwarf, but I just skimmed around and didn't find anybody wearing anything claimed. Everything I found that was being worn was unowned. I got excited for a second when I found somebody carrying an owned item, but then I noticed it was described as "hauled" and I'd caught the dwarf doing a "store owned item" job, carrying her sheep wool robe back to his cabinet in her bedroom. So you might be on to something there; there might be some interaction between items that are owned and items which can be picked up and equipped. Maybe the wonky thing in the game is that no item can be both claimed and worn at the same time?

So the ones that wear clothing do so through a "Pickup Equipment" job. Also, it doesn't appear to matter if the dwarf is hauling something at the same time.

All my dwarves at my current fort are wearing their clothing in the order lowerbody/upperbody/head/hands/feet/weapon.
Your blacksmith is wearing feet/hands.
Your weaver is wearing feet/hands/head/upperbody/lowerbody (this is the opposite order to my migrants).
If the pickup/wear order matters, perhaps you need more socks and shoes before they will think of wearing gloves or a hat.

Does that blacksmith only want to pickup and wear that specific honey badger leather shoe? Can you make the blacksmith equip a different shoe?

BigFatStupidHead

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2011, 01:39:50 am »

Are the clothes in question the migrant clothes they arrived in? I have an inkling of a suspicion that migrant clothing may somehow be different than produced-in-site clothing.
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Fishbulb

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 06:17:12 am »

All my dwarves at my current fort are wearing their clothing in the order lowerbody/upperbody/head/hands/feet/weapon.

Here's something I've never known the answer to: Is there any significance to the order of the items in a dwarf's inventory list? Is it the order they put the items on? Is it just a random computer thing?

Does that blacksmith only want to pickup and wear that specific honey badger leather shoe? Can you make the blacksmith equip a different shoe?

An excellent question. Since the job that drives things is "pickup equipment" my guess — "hypothesis" we'll call it, since we seem to be doing !!SCIENCE!! now — is that it works on the same mechanic as military uniform allocation: i.e., most expensive stuff wins. I'll try to remember to test that hypothesis later.

I think my testing rig is going to be an embark someplace random but calm, with plenty of booze and meat so I don't have to do anything. I'll use the same technique: "cleanowned all", then dump all clothing, then just watch and see what happens. Since I've seen no difference between the Significant Seven and later migrants, I bet I'll be able to learn some interesting things with a test like that.

Are the clothes in question the migrant clothes they arrived in? I have an inkling of a suspicion that migrant clothing may somehow be different than produced-in-site clothing.

Oh, that's another good question. All the examples I posted before were of original migrant clothing, because I hadn't produced or looted anything else. Maybe you're right; maybe a dwarf's starting clothes are treated as equipment by the game.

Okay, modified experiment. Take a screenshot of each of the Significant Seven's starting inventory, then compare the items they put back on after stripping down (if any) to what they wore on arrival.
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Sutremaine

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2011, 08:08:23 am »

does nobody care about the innocence of all the dwarf children?
Running around all day in the presence of a thousand naked midgets
It's okay, they're naked too.
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Wannazzaki

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2011, 09:02:41 am »

My dwarves have no choice but to be naked. I confiscate their clothes then drop them in a volcano.
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FluidDynamite

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2011, 09:25:50 am »

My dwarves have no choice but to be naked. I confiscate their clothes then drop them in a volcano.

Somehow I keep on reading that as "You confiscate their clothes and then drop the dwarves in a volcano"...
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2011, 09:36:02 am »

I find that my Dwarves really only need shoes and socks... Anything that's facing something dangerous is either armoured or stupid, and if it's armoured, that'll protect it against the worst syndromes.

I think all Dwarves should be liberated from their encumbering clothes, have all the clothes put in a tower under lock, key and magma... And stage a robbery of epic proportions.

Huh, maybe this is how you get the naked elf wrestler fortresses...

FoiledFencer

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2011, 10:25:32 am »

The way I see it is you used a hack to change the nature of the items in question. So it's impossible to determine whether this is the result of the hack or if this is a "normal" occurrence in DF.

Isn't that just a question of !!SCIENCE!!-ing it? A recreation of the circumstances described should allow us to isolate the 'trigger', no?
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peterix

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2011, 10:55:22 am »

* peterix approves

And watching the thread. I'm interested in what you guys find out :)

nttea

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2011, 12:24:05 pm »

the mystery of something in dwarf fortress working properly... let's get to the bottom of this! Honestly this just looks like drafted them into the military and theyre putting on clothes as part of the uniform, especially considering they aren't even claiming any clothes as owned.
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Kofthefens

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2011, 01:45:01 pm »

KoftheFens has been ecstatic lately. He has heard of dwarves putting on clothes lately.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2011, 05:20:20 pm »

All my dwarves at my current fort are wearing their clothing in the order lowerbody/upperbody/head/hands/feet/weapon.

Here's something I've never known the answer to: Is there any significance to the order of the items in a dwarf's inventory list? Is it the order they put the items on? Is it just a random computer thing?
...

It is the order they put the items on, apparently except for creatures that have just been spawned.
It could be related to the bug or fix mentioned here: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_now.html#2010-03-18

Theory - Dwarves are seeking a specific clothing item and won't put anything else on because it would be out of order. How to test this: dump the clothing off that weaver of yours, forbid all shoes, and then see what the weaver puts on. If the theory is true, he won't put on a cloak/pants/hat because he can't find any shoes.

* peterix approves

And watching the thread. I'm interested in what you guys find out :)

Does the cleanowned tool merely lift an "owned" flag of some sort, or does it "zero out" the identity of the owner which is stored somehow on the item? I'm wondering if a dwarf can still think that they own a piece of clothing even if it isn't flagged as such.

I think I should start to do some SCIENCE myself on this topic.

Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Civilian dwarves putting on clothes!
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2011, 08:08:36 pm »

SCIENCE results:

Loaded my current fort while using the latest dfhack. Initially, all dwarves wore whatever clothing they migrated in.

Used the "clearowned all" command and then dumped all the clothing. Once dumping was complete, unforbid clothing so it could be moved to a large stockpile.

While most dwarves moved clothing to the stockpile, or started to claim items and store them in cabinets in their rooms, only one dwarf got "pickup equipment" and put on a full set of clothing: the sole military dwarf (commander) who was not active/not on duty at the time.

I then locked a random dwarf in his room and recruited him to the military. He wouldn't get dressed in his owned clothing, but once I let him out he put on a full set of civilian clothes (but didn't claim them). Note that they do have a universally preferred order of dressing, but it doesn't stop them from skipping an item (if you forbid all shoes) to go further down the list.

So I am thinking it has something to do with the uniform system, so I enabled woodcutter on a dwarf who doesn't have it yet. He goes and puts some clothes on, but never equips an axe since we don't have any spares.

Next, I tried toggling the miner labor on a miner dwarf while the game was paused. Without dropping his pick, he put some clothes on, starting from items on his hands and then working along the order from there. He didn't equip shoes or socks, for example. I turned off mining, and he only returned the pick to the weapon stockpile. I had the (nothing was owned) clothing he was wearing dumped. He didn't grab anything else, even if I toggled his mining labor. I unforbid his dumped clothing and toggled his mining labor, and he ran to the dump to get dressed. He had easier access to unclaimed clothing in a stockpile than to the dump.

I was able to repeat the miner results with a second miner. I also suspect that the action of picking up a barrel for drinking has a similar effect to toggling the miner labor. I also note that miners are willing to use a new pick if their previous pick was taken from them and dumped.

I dumped a pig tail fiber cap from the militia commander. He wouldn't claim another cap, despite plenty of identical pig tail fiber caps or more expensive caps being availiable. He did go retrieve the specific cap that he equipped earlier in the day from the dump once I unforbid it.

Travelling backwards in time to a copy of the save file, I learned that the commander got dressed in the items that he owned before I used "clearowned all", including the specific pig tail fiber cap. A miner also was wearing an owned sheep wool hood that I had seen him equip from the dump (without claiming) in the alternate timeline.

Conclusions:
If you use "clearowned all" to confiscate and dump clothing from dwarves, they will retrieve the items that they previously wore if something triggers them into questioning their inventory, such as assigning a labor that requires a tool or assigning military duty. This means that they still have a psychic link to items despite no "owned by" displayed on the item. The dfhack tool is apparently only removing the "owned" flag without breaking said link.

Unanswered questions:
- How does damaged clothing work with this? Will they put damaged clothing back on? My fort isn't old enough.
- Does anyone ever wear clothing that they claimed and brought to their room, if the tool is used to "remove" ownership?
- Is only migrant clothing ever equipped?
- Is manufactured/goblinite/caravanite clothing ever equipped?
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