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Author Topic: Best Military Setup?  (Read 9207 times)

AllThingsLive

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Best Military Setup?
« on: December 20, 2011, 05:20:24 pm »

Okay, so I'm no veteran to Dwarf Fortress. I've probably been playing for 6 months now and have made about 15 fortresses total.
Needless to say, the defense of my fortresses almost entirely exists off of cage traps, and I want to fix that.

I have 4 squads now. My best one so far is an axeman squad which has been training for about 4 years now, but the best soldier is merely adept while the majority of others are novices or adequate. So why are they taking so long to train? I have them train year round, 10 out 10 at a time, and they are just barely becoming axeman. How come? They're all suited in full masterwork steel armor and weaponry, but are progressing like slugs. What's the best schedule setup for effective training? Would it be detrimental to have, say, 2 spearmen, 3 hammermen, and 5 axemen in a squad, since they would train each other in skills that they aren't going to use?

What are the different perks of each weapon type?
Axes - Close quarters combat, hacking off limbs.
That's as far as my weapon knowledge goes.

What's a good way to crosstrain soldiers and how long does crosstraining take? It seems like having soldiers operate screw pumps or smooth walls on their off time are the best options, but how long do they need to do this to see results?

I have my dwarves execute disarmed invaders, but they don't get too much skill from it. I'm afraid of them doing it with training weapons however, because it would be a shame to train a dwarf all the way up, only to have him become attached to the wooden axe he so mercilessly smacked goblins with.

How effective are ballistae? Is training some dwarves up to legendary siege operators by having them fire catapults all day actually worth the loss in hauling potential? Also, what's a good setup so that the ballistae actually get a chance to fire on invaders and not get scared away too soon?

How effective are crossbows? I've yet to employ marksmen into my military, so I don't know how well they work.

What's the best way to hold back the evils of the caverns below? Have a barracks between the entrance to the cavern and your stairway?

How can you employ magma and water as methods of defense for your fortress? Could someone explain to me and the other Dabbling Dwarf Fortressers[V. Rusty] the intricacies of the almighty pressure plate?

What, in general, is the best fortress layout, in terms of above ground defenses? All I have is a 3z high wall surrounding my stairway to the fortress. There are 2 entrances, 3 wide each with cage traps and drawbridges defending each. My barracks are also out there.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's it as far as my questions for the military go and typing them out has made me realize how many questions I have about the other aspects of your guys' fortresses. I'll save those for another topic.
Please share any knowledge you have on any of the preceding points. (Or knowledge on any other part of fortress defense that's been unmentioned thus far)
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darkflagrance

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 05:32:53 pm »

Axes are pretty much the best melee weapon for dwarves. Spears might be marginally more useful against larger beasts such as dragons, but I've never really noticed any difference between a master axedwarf and a master speardwarf in killing large things. Swords are not really worth the compromise. You never really fight enemies who are well-enough armored to merit blunt weapons, as goblins don't wear full armor. If you can get daggers or whips, those have been reported to be quite excellent as well.

The main use of marksdwarves is to camp on high towers or behind fortifications and shoot the enemy without fear of being counterattacked. Deploying marksdwarves onto the field tends to be suicide because they will charge in anyway half the time.

I've never had any difficulty getting dwarves to drop weapons they grew attached to, nor any problems arising as a result.

Catapults are completely useless. Ballistae are slightly usable, but their operators have wretched accuracy, you might need to use a metal-headed projectile rather than a pure wood one, and their minimum range is huge because ballista operators are easily scared by goblins.
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Telgin

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 05:37:17 pm »

Lots of questions there, so I'll just touch on a few as I don't have a lot of time.

Training takes a long time if the teachers are noobs.  Recent science was conducted that indicated that legendary teaching skill makes an unbelievable difference in how long it takes to train.  The end result is that your first few squads are going to take ages to train up this way, but as they get better at teaching the process goes faster.

Sparring trains faster than demonstrations.  There's no way to force dwarves to spar as far as I know, but people have suggested that putting them in smaller squads (3 or 4) encourages sparring, but I haven't tested this.  I believe there may be a minimum skill involved before dwarves will spar, but I'm not sure.

I would avoid mixing weapons in a squad, as they will indeed spend time teaching each other how to use weapons they have no business even using.

Crossbows can be very effective with high skilled marksdwarves.  I've had dwarves shoot titans and forgotten beasts dead before the melee dwarves even show up.  Siege weapons on the other hand suck unless you go through pain staking processes to funnel enemies into their lanes of fire.  I don't bother.

The perks of different weapons are a bit of a mystery still and there are superstitions surrounding them.  Supposedly, hammers and maces are good at disabling smaller (goblin-sized) enemies, and for jamming skulls through brains.  Axes are effective at lopping off limbs and thus disabling enemies before finishing them off.  Spears are supposedly very good at dealing with big things, since they can reach vital organs and cause lots of bleeding.  Swords combine an axe and a spear in that they can thrust and hack, but I would assume they're not as good at both jobs.

The real question is how much of that is true and how much effect it really has.  Supposedly blunt weapons are pretty good no matter what they're made of, except for candy, which sucks as a blunt weapon material.  Edged weapons need to be of at least the same grade as the armor they are up against, lest they become much less effective.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 05:53:33 pm »

Don't forget to have them on active duty so they actually train :P (Easy mistake to overlook).
Though yeah, embarking with a teacher in the long term is a legit choice, and really worth it in the long term (if you can keep your teachers alive).
First off, I find having militia train with a decent teacher trains them faster than individual training or sparring, but once they've reached adept/skilled sparring quickly overtakes the xp gain.

Telgin

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 05:57:46 pm »

Don't forget to have them on active duty so they actually train :P (Easy mistake to overlook).

^^ This.

I did this recently.  Many bad thoughts for Telgin when I realized what I did.

About two years of individual combat drills instead of training.

Actually, those few dwarves did end up with decent skill after that time, I wonder if it's better than demonstrating with a crappy teacher?  They'll never learn anything but weapon skills this way though, as far as I know.
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AllThingsLive

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2011, 06:10:42 pm »

Ooh, good stuff so far! I do have my dwarves set to train, but I realized that the "Train, 10 minimum" isn't what I thought it was. That requires all 10 dwarves to be present for training to start, correct? That could be my issue. I'll have to split up some of my squads and try that sparring setup too.
And for my next fortress, I may try embarking with a proficient axedwarf-teacher.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2011, 06:13:31 pm »

Ooh, good stuff so far! I do have my dwarves set to train, but I realized that the "Train, 10 minimum" isn't what I thought it was. That requires all 10 dwarves to be present for training to start, correct? That could be my issue. I'll have to split up some of my squads and try that sparring setup too.
And for my next fortress, I may try embarking with a proficient axedwarf-teacher.

I norm. choose a proficient teacher with a generic fighter skill that all can use, like fighter or dodger, unless I feel particularly mad and want to re-enact 300 urists :P
You'll want to have the schedule set for 1 less of the entire squad (if it's a full time army squad that is), and squads of 3 with the schedule set for 2 gives the largest chance for all of your dwarves to get a chance to spar. Sparring also keeps them happy :D

AllThingsLive

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2011, 06:26:01 pm »

Exactly how important are skills like fighter, dodger, armor user, and shield user?
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Telgin

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2011, 06:33:45 pm »

Nobody knows for sure, I think.

Dodger is very useful at high skill levels from what I understand, but remember that it can get dwarves in trouble (dodge into pond, eaten by carp).

Armor user is pretty useful in that it lets dwarves wearing heavy armor move faster.  I think at the highest level they move at normal speed even with a full suit of steel, which is handy.

Shield user is quite possibly more useful than dodger.  Shields can block just about everything, including dragon's breath.  And dwarves can bash with them, but I don't know if the skill is actually used for bashing.  I think not for some reason...

Fighter is the one I have no clue on.  My suspicion is that it affects all combat rolls in a lesser manner than the specific skill, but I'd rather not spread misinformation.
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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 06:35:24 pm »

Exactly how important are skills like fighter, dodger, armor user, and shield user?

Fighter is a general fighting skill (as the name implies), dodging is important too (for dodging stray bolts and what not), just be sure that your dwarves don't dodge into pits... Armor user and shield user, these are VERY important skills for live dwarves, and are used every time your Dwarf (attempts) to block a strike with his/her armour/shield. The Dwarf can also try blocking the strike with his weapon, and using that weapon skill.

Sphalerite

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 06:46:52 pm »

I prefer to have mixed squads of hammerdwarves and axedwarves.  Axedwarves are more useful at chopping off limbs, but I've found that when I read the combat report many of the actual kills come from hammerdwarves crushing the skulls of their targets.  Then again, I am using an experimental mod that includes (among other things) uranium refining.

I try to have at least a few marksdwarves.  It can be hard to keep enough training bolts on hand to train more than one or two of them properly, but sometimes you just need to kill something that you can't get within hand-to-hand combat range of.

Ballistae are amusing but mostly useless.  At best, you might be able to use one to inflict some minor harm on an invading group before engaging it with your primary military.  You can't defend your fortress with siege weapons alone.

Training against life targets gives a lot more experience than sparring or shooting at practice dummies.  I routinely catch ambush groups and wild animals in cage traps, then release them in the barracks while my soldiers are practicing.
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Lungfish

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2011, 07:13:12 pm »

Section 1: I feel your pain dude.
When they made the switch from the old military system to the new, I was dumbfounded. Used to be that dwarves would just train up and before you knew it you had an army of legendary wrestlers killing anything. Now there's so many options, it took me a long time before I was getting the most of it. Here's everything I do - would love feedback from lurking pros.

Section 2: schedule/barracks
You probably already got this down. Build a bed, armor stand, or weapon stand and make it a barracks. You also have to set your squad to train there. I also have them store their squad equipment and personal equipment there because just because (I don't know why).
Then you have to 's'chedule them, in the 'm'ilitary screen. It's been said that if you leave it to 10 out of 10 then they'll pretty much only wait to watch a demonstration as they're waiting for all 10 of them to be available and ready. I always set it for 5 out of 10 and have that squad train 2 months a year so as to avoid becoming enraged about a long patrol. Then you have to make that schedule active and make sure your squads are in that schedule.

Section 3: equipment
I usually have them use whatever melee weapons they want because they'll just grab whatever I have. If you set them to use swords and you don't have any, then they'll just level up their fighting/dodging/maybe wrestling.
For Marksdwarves, you have to assign 'f'mmunition, or they'll just level up their hammerdwarf skill, sparring with crossbows. They also need their squad assigned to an archery target building/barracks. Also make sure you have enough waterskins/flasks so they don't get super thirsty right at the beginning of a call to duty.

Section 4: placement
It's awesome to have your barracks close to your sensitive areas and "no entry" regions, like your back door. That way you have dwarves at the ready when something comes probing around and you can spot gremlins or goblin thieves when they're sneaking by. I also try and make their living quarters be close to their barracks to minimize wasted time going to sleep or storing an item. Make sure they all have doors - they like to hoard their plump helmuts and such, which often get funky and miasmal. Also, I have the Marksdwarves practicing between the fortified floor and the ammo dump - it's best to have the archery target in front of a wall that is behind a pit so you can collect bolts that missed the mark. As far as barracks size, I haven't heard that it effects anything except maybe social skills and friendships. And as far as your underground nether regions, I like to have a fortification connected with a high-quality door connected to a hallway that ends with a stairwell that merges all the caverns - frequently with a lot of cage traps to catch the small stuff. This gives my marksdwarves a chance to come down and chip away at a forgotten beast made of glass before it comes in and gives all my little guys cuts and infections.

Section 4: Patrols and 'defend burrows'
I've never used this, assign from laboriously defining the borrow of my entire fortress and restricting dwarves to it when I've got trouble. Seems like I should, and when the fortress gets big and beautiful and I'm getting attacked a lot, I get plenty of dwarves who are angry about long patrols. It would be much better to use this feature I guess because then you would have a few squads of 5 out of 10 dwarves ready to fight and in the right place.

Section 5: other training
Mining: improves strength - I always have 10 to 20 miners hollowing out a big part of the map around my fortress.
Pump Operating: Also strength, and they get strong pretty fast. I build 20 pumps and just have them go at it.
Using Dwarf Therapist, when I see a dwarf is legendary +5 in mining or pump operating, I assume they're crazy strong by then and I assign that task  to the next dwarf down.
Danger Room: dodging/blocking - Dodging is hella important I think. When I embark to reclaim a fortress, I put 5 points in dodging in order to avoid early injuries. Other than that, to train up dodging quick you need a danger room. I spent a long damn time trying to build one TWICE, and I messed up both times. I've heard speculation that you only need a 1 by 1 tile with wooden spears in order to train them up, but I thought it would be cool to have an entire 8 by 8 barracks connected to 4 pressure plates. Such a pain. Gotta set the plates to trigger on the right weight, and when you're assigning the upright spike trap to a pressure plate, it shows traps by order of their construction (and all traps that are not currently connected, whether or not they are assigned to be connected).
Hunting: Marksdwarvship, observe, ambush - This is pretty obvious. I always have 3 to 5 marksdwarves hunting above ground and in the caverns, which levels them up in crossbows way faster than if they're stone-crafting and only occasionally going to crossbow practice. For the purpose of training, I assign marksdwarves to hammerdwarf squads so they can train up in the melee use of their crossbow, which is occasionally necessary. Warning: don't do this for your troop commanded by the captain of the guard - if you accidentally don't have enough jails and a dwarf has to be beaten, you want them to be terrible at using their bone crossbows as melee weapons.

Does the use of training weapons actually matter at all?

Section 6: siege weapons
Unlike marksdwarves, ballistas won't hit things on the Z level below them. I hate this, and didn't know it for a long time. Never used catapults, but I imagine they're less accurate. Also of note, balistas will kill anything in their path, while stones launched from catapults have a friend/foe recognition system so you can have some constant catapulting with no fear.

Other Questions:
Is there a way to level up teaching/studenting other than training?
How do you really use the 'patrol route' thing?
When a dwarf "doesn't really care about anything anymore" will it really still not get an unhappy thought from their baby dieing after carrying it into battle?
Is there a value to having every barracks associated with their own squad? I never have more than three barracks, sometimes with as many as 10 squads assigned to the same armor stand.
If I mark "store squad equipment" should I also place weapon, armor, ammo stockpiles there? Or does it not matter.

Hope this is half as useful as it was fun to write.
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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2011, 07:19:25 pm »

Whips and scourges are essentially lightsabers. High speed, sever pretty much anything. If you can get one out of a heavy metal, it'll be the best weapon you ever get. They can only be made in strange moods unfortunately, other than taking them from the goblins.
 
I prefer marksdwarf spam myself, but they tend to get annihilated by a single elite bowman, so keep some melee handy.
As for melee, I use mostly axes, a few spears and hammers. I've heard spears are great against Forgotten beasts/titans, even the ones made of good metals, so I'll probably be testing that soon.

Daggers are pretty good, but axes tend to do the same job better, them only coming with thieves is a slight problem, and training the dagger skill is unlikely to happen.
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AllThingsLive

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2011, 08:06:24 pm »

Whips and scourges are essentially lightsabers. High speed, sever pretty much anything. If you can get one out of a heavy metal, it'll be the best weapon you ever get. They can only be made in strange moods unfortunately, other than taking them from the goblins.
I never even considered whips. So a silver whip would be the best?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Best Military Setup?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2011, 08:27:15 pm »

Whips and scourges are essentially lightsabers. High speed, sever pretty much anything. If you can get one out of a heavy metal, it'll be the best weapon you ever get. They can only be made in strange moods unfortunately, other than taking them from the goblins.
I never even considered whips. So a silver whip would be the best?
Against armoured things, yes.
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