Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10

Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.  (Read 37146 times)

Zarat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« on: December 26, 2011, 07:04:51 pm »

I just want to say that Dwarf Fortress is a great game, maybe one of the greatest I have ever played - and Toady, for making it, one of the best game designers. I’ve been playing around with it, on and off, for about six months or so now. The depth of the generated worlds is amazing, the complexity is amazing, the way anything can happen, the way any series of events might unfold is amazing. The creative freedom of the game is amazing. I really think the fundamental ideas behind the game and the game mechanics are extraordinary.

Unfortunately, great ideas are crippled by a bad implementation. That’s no slight on Toady: Dwarf Fortress is a very large project, and he’s only one person – and furthermore, he’s one person without the education, training, or experience to work on really large software projects. He’s a hobbyist coder, if DF is any indication, and he’s done some extraordinary things…as a hobbyist coder. And certainly some of his experience has come in handy – as I thought, he does have a math background, and I’m sure that was invaluable for certain aspects of DF.

What makes me say the implementation is bad? Well, I don’t think I’ll be saying anything that hasn’t said here before. The interface is tremendously horrible, unworkable. The performance is god-awful – and while yes, Dwarf Fortress could never run efficiently on a desktop from 1999, given what it’s simulating, I am quite sure there is room for a tenfold improvement, especially in some corner cases, like running over frozen oceans in Adventure Mode.  And finally, the game is overrun with dozens of very annoying bugs – the beekeeping problems, for example, or the full bucket problems.

The community has addressed these issues to some degree with mods, utilities like Dwarf Therapist and DF Hack, and complex workarounds posted on these forums (when you can find them, anyway.) But these basically amount to putting a band-aid on an axe wound. The game is nigh-unplayable without them. That’s, quite frankly, absurd. As an aside here, for the benefit of the forum members here, it would be an enormous help if there were FAQ topics stickied at the top of each board, rather than telling people “you would know this if you would just search the forums.”  Assuming that a newbie figures out exactly what he should be searching for, he then has to go through dozens or hundreds of threads that mention it, some in passing and some in detail, until he finally finds one that is actually relevant.

There’s really only one thing Toady could really do to fix these problems: get other developers to work on DF. Since he (quite commendably) doesn’t charge for DF (which I also believe gets him many more users), hiring more developers is out, because there’s not enough money. The only other viable way of getting more help is by open sourcing DF.

Yes, I know, this has been brought up before. But as far as I could tell in the few threads I actually found on the subject, the arguments against it were bafflingly ignorant. They seemed to amount to:
1.  DF is Toady’s baby, and he want to retain full control over it.
2.  DF is Toady’s source of income, and open sourcing it would take that away.
3.  Too many cooks spoil the broth.
4. There would be 100000000 forks of DF.

All of these are fallacious, but 1 and 3 are especially so. There is nothing about open sourcing DF that would cause Toady to lose his artistic or any other control over DF. The organizational structure of an open-source project depends entirely on its goals. Some projects do operate by consensus and committee, but most open-source projects rely on a single benevolent dictator who has full control of what is accepted into the codebase. If there’s not a single benevolent dictator, there usually is at least a hierarchy of dictators all appointed by the Head Dictator. It is actually quite common for code submissions to be rejected – if you don’t conform to the style or standards, then you can expect to be rejected, or if you implement all on your own some feature that the dictators didn’t ask for and aren’t interested in. Indeed, it’s baffling that anyone could think they operate otherwise – how could any project be successful if they just anyone submit code?  It would be a complete disaster.
Which is where the “two many cooks spoil the broth” comes in – some even add Brooks’ dictum that adding programmers to a late project makes it later (these people have never actually read his book.)  Some of the most successful software in the world is open source, such as the Linux kernel, GNU environment, various BSDs, the core that Mac OS X runs on, Mozilla Firefox, Google Chrome, the Apache webserver that virtually every website runs on (except Bay12 – it runs the open source nginx), and thousands and thousands of other projects, including, for example, the forum software this board uses. The Android operating system on smartphones and the Kindle Fire is open source and based on Linux. Most likely the very program used to compile Dwarf Fortress is LLVM or gcc, which are open source. You are pretty well guaranteed that you are running some open source program on your computer, and some is much, much more complex than Dwarf Fortress.  Adding developers did not make any of these projects later; in fact, many of them have regular release schedules. Firefox, for example, releases every six weeks.

I am not an open source partisan – I’d be very hesitant before going open source myself, because my income also comes from my work. But open source projects can and do make money. Red Hat makes billions of dollars off of Linux. Mozilla makes hundreds of millions of dollars off Firefox. More to the point, though, Toady’s income comes from donations. It’s hard to see how that would be affected by open sourcing it: the leader, figurehead, founder, and designer will always be Toady. While forks are very uncommon because of the work needed to maintain them, people will always come to Bay12 for THE Dwarf Fortress made by THE Toady, just as people go to Mozilla to download Firefox when a couple of forks do exist. And they will donate to Toady, because the game is greater – and if open sourced, would be even better. I have seen some say that the contributors would expect a share of the donations, but that’d be pretty bizarre, since it doesn’t work that way anywhere else and is never even stated upfront because it’s bloody obvious that they aren’t getting any.

I can understand Toady’s feeling that this is his baby and a piece of art that he is determined to loose into the world. But he will never be able to finish it to his – or anyone’s – satisfaction alone. That might be hard to admit, and I honestly don’t expect him to take this advice, even if he does ever read it, because he comes across as a little stubborn. If that’s how he really feels about DF though, then he should feel doubly obligated to accept, even invite, help. Simply put, software engineering isn’t Toady’s forte, and that’s already clear this early in development. One gets the sense just by playing of tightly coupled and poorly architected design, even disregarding poor algorithmic choices. This will only get worse and worse over time. The amount of bugs Toady has on his plate to fix will increase exponentially, and he will have the choice of continuing to implement features and thus generating an exponential amount of more bugs (and even worse performance) or spending entire frustrating years tracking down and fixing bugs, which will often just create (or reveal) further bugs. Indeed, if one is going to go by Brooks, then you’re also going to have to accept that DF will at some point (probably now) need a total rewrite.

Frankly, the community doesn’t seem to be serving Toady well in this regard, where a lot of them seem to defend everything and profess knowledge where they have none. The best example seems to be the implementation of multithreading in DF. I ran across tons of threads where this was derided as not realistic, necessary, and too hard. That’s jaw-droppingly wrong. Processor cores are not going to get much faster – and by the way, clock speed alone is not a good indication of actual speed at all, as I have seen some say when recommending that players buy processors with fewer but faster cores.  One of 2.8ghz cores in my Core i7 is much, much faster than , for example, a 3.8gbz Pentium 4. But as this is not the place for an in-depth explanation of processor architecture, I’ll just say that single core speed is going to stay basically static while the number of cores is going to increase. But more importantly, multithreading produces fantastic performance improvements even in single core processors. That’s why essentially every single application on your computer is multithreaded – except, of course, Dwarf Fortress – and has been before dual core processors were a gleam in anyone’s eye.  Most important, perhaps, is not so much the raw performance increase but the perceived increase in responsiveness that the user gets when, for example, the UI is offloaded onto another thread. There is nothing difficult about multithreading: everyone does it. And while nobody serious is really going to say that n threads gives you an n increase in performance, it is quite drastic, especially in applications such as DF which can be highly parallelized (and yes, it can – might even be interesting to see how much can be offloaded to the GPU.)

Personally, I think it’s really disappointing that things turned out this way, because DF has so much potential. As a personal project, I’m going to decompile DF and see what I can do. Decompilers aren’t magic – comments, other documentation, variable names, how the software is modularized, etc. – are all stripped out in the process of compilation, so it’ll be a lot of work and drudgery, but maybe it’ll be interesting, especially when I get to the point where I can fix things or (I suppose) add to them. It would be clearly wrong for me to publicly distribute it in either source or binary form, so it’ll never be more than an experiment, but that’s also sadly all DF will ever be if Toady doesn’t step up and get over his personal hesitation. Yes, great projects and works of art require a single vision. But they also take a lot of engineering, architecting, and many, many hands, and Toady simply isn’t a software engineer.



« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 07:06:33 pm by Zarat »
Logged

UltraValican

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Man aiming to be a Man!
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2011, 07:43:54 pm »

EGADS! I did not know beekeeping glitches made the game un-playable! /sarcasm. I do not know of a bug that is absolutely game breaking, not to say it does not exist.
You raise some good points, and you even addressed this, but the man said NO. DF is Toady's child, and if HE feels closed soreness in all its inefficiency is what he wants to do, then more power to him. I would take an uncompleted DF by 2020, that Toady feels he did not compromise, over a completed DF by 2013 that Toady made by compromising his desire to create it single-handedly. If Toady has a change of heart then GREAT! But, I think most people(like my self right now), use "uninformed" arguments to defend a man who, who as far as I know, could not give less of a thought to the efficiancy of his dev cycle.

 
Logged
Would you rather be an Ant in Heaven or a Man in Hell?

Zarat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2011, 07:56:35 pm »

The Beekeeping bug was an example. In Fortress Mode, it's really all the little bugs put together that start making it unbearable, because you have to micromanage around them. The full-bucket bug is probably the most annoying for me personally - I should never have to manually empty bugs through arcane tricks. When I have to install DFHack just to keep my wells running so the hospitals work and dwarves stay hydrated, there's a problem.

In Adventure Mode, crossing frozen oceans is pretty much impossible because of a performance bug. So yes, I'd say that makes it unplayable since a lot of any particular map can be an ocean. (If players shouldn't be able to cross oceans, it should just be dangerous.)

I am not saying the problem with Toady's development is that it's inefficient - so what if it takes a while? - it's that the game will literally never be done, not by 2020 or 2030 or 2040, no matter how much Toady hammers away at it, because the number of bugs he has to deal with will increase almost exponentially in large part because of the lack of engineering, and in part because of the size of the codebase. It will be unmanageable for any one person. Fixing bugs will produce more bugs.

This is a known problem and why we have these software engineering methodologies.

EDIT: I re-read your post and I am afraid that you think that I think that closed-source development is inefficient; I do not. It can certainly be very efficient and in the ideal case it is my personal belief that it is superior to open source - but that might just be because I make my living off of it. If Toady could afford to hire a dev team and had the skills to lead it, or had some way of getting a company's support behind him while still retaining full rights and control, I would consider those superior alternatives. The problem is a lone man who is only a coder and an excellent game designer working on it mostly alone.

I also did forget to mention that Toady could use an open source license that does not permit forking of the codebase, reselling, or other things he might not like.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 08:07:54 pm by Zarat »
Logged

UltraValican

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Man aiming to be a Man!
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2011, 08:05:54 pm »

I think you misunderstood me. A project that stays on its intended path (Toady wants no coding help) and remains unfinished is better than a completed project that the creator had to make major compromises in his vision (of working with no coding assistance). My point is: If the game is never finished: Boo-Hoo. At least Toady did it his way
(I still don't see how lack of honey=game breaker :D)
Not that this is a substitue for the bug, but you can make worlds that are one large continent.
Logged
Would you rather be an Ant in Heaven or a Man in Hell?

King DZA

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ruler of all things ruleable
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2011, 08:12:04 pm »

‼Rabblerabblerabbledisagreementsrabblerabble‼

Nah, I'm kidding. But really, you have to remember that, as completely inefficient as it may be, it's fun for him, it's what he enjoys doing. And enjoyment would definitely seem to be a higher concern than efficiency for Toady.

Honestly, If he felt that he was hopelessly overwhelmed, and that he would never be able to have DF as complete as he wanted, he probably would have gotten more help long ago. But right now he seems fine with the way things are working out. If his methods end up screwing him over in the long run, maybe it will make him reconsider being a lone coder(or just convince him to give up on it). But until then, sit back, let him work on his game the way he likes, and enjoy the ride.

And I agree with Ultra about the bug thing. There's definitely a lot of rather big ones around, and the utilities/workarounds make the game a hell of a lot more bearable, but nigh-unplayable is a bit of an overstatement.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 08:13:41 pm by King DZA »
Logged

Zarat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2011, 08:13:54 pm »

One of my key points is that there is no reason for Toady to make any compromise in his vision in accepting help. In fact, I believe very strongly that anything good is a result of a single vision where other people don't get much if any say. But that's different from not having helping hands.

Open source being able to submit patches and features subject to Toady's approval. If they're not dwarfy? Reject! That's the way it works in any project.

If you look at the great artists or sculptors - even writers, it's not as if they worked alone.
Logged

MrWiggles

  • Bay Watcher
  • Doubt Everything
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2011, 08:18:49 pm »

The community has a number of programers both hobbyists and professions, using their own experiences about multi threading in DF. We also have ToadyOne thought on Multithreading in DF, and he doesn't think it would offer any real improvement.
----
The bugs are numerous, but I never understand the stance that its unplayable due to them. Consider the number of LPs, the continued support, and activity of the forum, someone out there is defiantly playing it. Not playable for you, sure, but not playable in general, doesnt seem to be.

I got a fort going right now, for myself.
-----
The UI, gets incremental improvements over time. Its getting some more when the next release comes out. I dont find its UI, anymore obtuse then other RLs.

One of my key points is that there is no reason for Toady to make any compromise in his vision in accepting help. In fact, I believe very strongly that anything good is a result of a single vision where other people don't get much if any say. But that's different from not having helping hands.

Open source being able to submit patches and features subject to Toady's approval. If they're not dwarfy? Reject! That's the way it works in any project.

If you look at the great artists or sculptors - even writers, it's not as if they worked alone.

Toady programs by himself by choice. Toady doesnt work on DF, by himself though. Though Threetoes gets marginalized, hes a continued presence in the design of DF. And there the somewhat known circle of alpha testers, that probably do help Toady test the nightly builds of DF, in some form. Not sure if they've been employed during this release though.

And there are great artists, in every medium that do work by themselves.

Yea, open source, can work, so can close source. Though I dont believe one is superior over the other.

Logged
Doesn't like running from bears = clearly isn't an Eastern European
I'm Making a Mush! Navitas: City Limits ~ Inspired by Dresden Files and SCP.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113699.msg3470055#msg3470055
http://www.tf2items.com/id/MisterWigggles666#

ayoriceball

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2011, 08:22:58 pm »

But right now he seems fine with the way things are working out. If his methods end up screwing him over in the long run, maybe it will make him reconsider being a lone coder(or just convince him to give up on it). But until then, sit back, let him work on his game the way he likes, and enjoy the ride.

There are plenty of people who have worked on games by themselves, then sought out help and were still able to enjoy their hobby.

DF will be left in the dust. There are many "projects" similar to this that have died whilst only having one "lone coder".
Logged
Don't dwarven ladies know they're beautiful the way they are? They don't need to starve themselves to look like those elven bitches.
"Tigermen are lazy and worthless... but not MY friend, Grroawarul."

MrWiggles

  • Bay Watcher
  • Doubt Everything
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2011, 08:26:29 pm »

And if that day comes when ToadyOne & ThreeToes want to stop working on DF, there is a loose promise that'll be release to the community in some form. I'd suspect in a similar fashion as what happen to LCS.
Logged
Doesn't like running from bears = clearly isn't an Eastern European
I'm Making a Mush! Navitas: City Limits ~ Inspired by Dresden Files and SCP.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113699.msg3470055#msg3470055
http://www.tf2items.com/id/MisterWigggles666#

UltraValican

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Man aiming to be a Man!
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2011, 08:27:56 pm »

He already has *help*: the commuinty, his brother.
But right now he seems fine with the way things are working out. If his methods end up screwing him over in the long run, maybe it will make him reconsider being a lone coder(or just convince him to give up on it). But until then, sit back, let him work on his game the way he likes, and enjoy the ride.

And if that day comes when ToadyOne & ThreeToes want to stop working on DF, there is a loose promise that'll be release to the community in some form. I'd suspect in a similar fashion as what happen to LCS.
Unless ,of course, some jerkoff kills him for the code/joke
Logged
Would you rather be an Ant in Heaven or a Man in Hell?

ayoriceball

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2011, 08:29:24 pm »

And if that day comes when ToadyOne & ThreeToes want to stop working on DF, there is a loose promise that'll be release to the community in some form. I'd suspect in a similar fashion as what happen to LCS.

Why should he (they?) stop working on it? It's obvious that's not going to happen for a long time, and I don't think that's what anyone here wants.
Logged
Don't dwarven ladies know they're beautiful the way they are? They don't need to starve themselves to look like those elven bitches.
"Tigermen are lazy and worthless... but not MY friend, Grroawarul."

MrWiggles

  • Bay Watcher
  • Doubt Everything
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2011, 08:33:09 pm »

And if that day comes when ToadyOne & ThreeToes want to stop working on DF, there is a loose promise that'll be release to the community in some form. I'd suspect in a similar fashion as what happen to LCS.

Why should he (they?) stop working on it? It's obvious that's not going to happen for a long time, and I don't think that's what anyone here wants.
*Shrugs* They wants to work on an another project. They feel satisfied with DF some aspect, and loose the ability to see the merit of continusing with it. I dont want them to stop working on it, but there hasnt been a completely done Bay12 game yet, and arguably this is their largest game.

Maybe the end of the month project, that ToadyOne has teased us about start to capture more of his intentions.
Logged
Doesn't like running from bears = clearly isn't an Eastern European
I'm Making a Mush! Navitas: City Limits ~ Inspired by Dresden Files and SCP.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113699.msg3470055#msg3470055
http://www.tf2items.com/id/MisterWigggles666#

Zarat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2011, 08:57:43 pm »

The community has a number of programers both hobbyists and professions, using their own experiences about multi threading in DF. We also have ToadyOne thought on Multithreading in DF, and he doesn't think it would offer any real improvement.

Not to sound too rude, but they don't know what they're talking about. Again, there's a reason that literally every application on your computer is multithreaded and has been for over a decade - it improves responsiveness tremendously. Have you ever seen the DF UI lag (something which happens to me all the time)? That wouldn't happen. That's just a tiny example.

Quote
The bugs are numerous, but I never understand the stance that its unplayable due to them. Consider the number of LPs, the continued support, and activity of the forum, someone out there is defiantly playing it. Not playable for you, sure, but not playable in general, doesnt seem to be.

I played it for six months; I don't mean literally "it cannot be played because it crashes on startup." Yes, with sufficient determination, a keen eye to pay attention, and realize something's wrong, and the willingness to search an disorganized forum, you can workaround most problems you encounter. But that cuts out all but the most hardcore fans.

Quote
I got a fort going right now, for myself.

So do I.

Quote
The UI, gets incremental improvements over time. Its getting some more when the next release comes out. I dont find its UI, anymore obtuse then other RLs.

There's been plenty of discussion about there here, I think, but if other RLs have you manually scroll through a list of 250 dwarves to find the one you want and have three or four different scrolling conventions determined arbitrarily by what menu you're in, then they set a poor standard.

Quote
Toady programs by himself by choice. Toady doesnt work on DF, by himself though. Though Threetoes gets marginalized, hes a continued presence in the design of DF. And there the somewhat known circle of alpha testers, that probably do help Toady test the nightly builds of DF, in some form. Not sure if they've been employed during this release though.

A million alpha testers wouldn't help. And as I said, the game design is great, there's no problem there, and it looks like they're continuing to improve it. I think I might have some minor quibbles with some of the future planned stuff, but that's game design.

Quote
And there are great artists, in every medium that do work by themselves.

DF isn't Harry Potter, it's the Great Pyramid. Or the Space Shuttle. A software project of this size is not doable unless - maybe - they are a stellar software architect and engineer in addition to being a great game designer. And even then, given what's planned, I'd put it at more like 2040. But Toady is only a great game designer (and I certainly don't wish he wasn't one!)

Quote
Yea, open source, can work, so can close source. Though I dont believe one is superior over the other.

I think you may have missed some of my statements - I agree in principle, although my personal belief is that closed source is superior in the ideal situation.

And if that day comes when ToadyOne & ThreeToes want to stop working on DF, there is a loose promise that'll be release to the community in some form. I'd suspect in a similar fashion as what happen to LCS.

Why should he (they?) stop working on it? It's obvious that's not going to happen for a long time, and I don't think that's what anyone here wants.

Eventually, the development at DF will come to a point where Toady is forced to concentrate his attention on fixing bugs, because so many things will break as he adds features and changes things, and he will have to do so for a long time, and it will be extremely frustrating  - tracking them down (!!!!!!), fixing them (!), and then finding out what ripple effects the fix had (!!!!!!!!). The only practical solution, eventually, will be a full rewrite - and that would be quite enough for anyone who spent as many years as they have on it to feel like quitting. That tipping point is not too far off now.

Nobody wants this, but it's a consequence of the kind of development that is being done.

And of course, to be gloomy, there's the horrible possibility that Toady (or him and ThreeToe) might be hit by a truck or have health problems. I understand that they then have the fallback scenario of releasing the source but - is this an actual, implementable plan? Who is in charge of carrying it out? What are the licensing issues, or will it be public domain? Is there a clearer list of devgoals than what is posted on the site so that people could do his vision some kind of justice? Is it even documented? These are terrible things to think about but they happen and unfortunately not as rarely as we might wish.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 09:06:45 pm by Zarat »
Logged

ayoriceball

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2011, 09:13:40 pm »

I dont find its UI, anymore obtuse then other RLs.

Caves of Qud?
Logged
Don't dwarven ladies know they're beautiful the way they are? They don't need to starve themselves to look like those elven bitches.
"Tigermen are lazy and worthless... but not MY friend, Grroawarul."

612DwarfAvenue

  • Bay Watcher
  • Voice actor.
    • View Profile
    • TESnexus profile, has my voice acting portfolio.
Re: Dwarf Fortress is the best game I have ever played.
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2011, 09:20:51 pm »

Goddamnit man, another one of these threads?
Logged
My voice acting portfolio.
Centration. Similar to Spacestation 13, but in 3D and first-person. Sounds damn awesome.
NanoTrasen Exploratory Team: SS13 in DF.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10