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[dnabios]

Sirus is correct here.  What Sirus is trying to say (unless I am equally confused) is that too much of an "us vs. them" or "my side vs. your side" is not good.  There are no "sides", or "them".  Both people have a difference of opinion based on what seems to them to be logical and obvious reasoning. 

Exempli gratia:
Pro-life:  Murder is wrong, you should not be allowed to kill people simply because you choose to do so.
Pro-choice:  Forcing a woman to have a baby against her will is wrong, you should not be able to make her have a child if she does not want to.

It is baffling to X why it is impossible for Y to see that.  They are not "stupid", or "evil".  They just disagree.

Ok; except maybe the rape comment was stupid.  He was probably referencing vaginal changes associated with female arousal (such as pH modification and movement of the cervix to be closer to the semen) increasing the odds of pregnancy.  But no, those tiny changes do not have appreciable impact.  Rape generates pregnancy about 6.4% of the time, consensual sex 3.2% (j.Human Nature, 2003).  The belief is that rape victims are less likely to be on birth control.

Also, Toady has been in here twice already.  I can't believe he gave two strikes.  Can I try and return us to the topic at hand?

The latest numbers I saw places Obama at 47.2% and Romney at 44.7%.  This blows my mind because I'm in MN and everyone is so blue it seems unbelievable to me that it's so close.  Someone above was also from MN.  So MN represent!  Woo!  In my mind, both Obama and Romney could use more courting of moderates.  I haven't seen any of that thus far and it's really the only voting block up for grabs.

Conservatives don't need to plot to do evil. Their world-view is so completely warped in its favor that they do evil by accident, i.e. following the logical consequences of their beliefs.

Really? I mean, really? You don't see how that's any different from something like, say, this?

Homosexuals don't need to plot to do evil. Their world-view is so completely warped in its favor that they do evil by accident, i.e. following the logical consequences of their beliefs.

Both statements strike me as total bullcrap from where I'm sitting.

Which is why specifics matter. Why does person A believe X, why does person B believe Y. There are certain beliefs that are either factually incorrect or provably harmful to wider humanity with very little granted in return besides the satiation of somebody's ego. I don't see what your point is other than people believe different things.

Do you have any specific examples to the contrary?

Afraid not, though the recent Biden "chains" comment might come close, and even that is a stretch. What exactly would I input in Google looking for examples, anyway? "liberals not decrying their own"?

If you can't provide examples your ideas are less clear. It's easy to toss out "YOU'RE ALL RIGHT AND WRONG" but those words don't actually mean anything without concrete substance behind them.

try to deflect with poorly reasoned accusations of "liberals do bad things too! (we just don't have many non-manufactured examples, but they exist, so shut up forever)".

I'm gonna assume that that's not some sort of insinuation, because I realize that I can have a quick temper and want to avoid launching some sort of flame war.

I was specifically speaking of how conservatives respond to whatever the latest kerfuffle is, but I also find your claim was poorly reasoned. Is that flame war material to you?

[scriver]

MN is what, Minnesota? Maine? Mew Nersey?

[Domenique]

MN is what, Minnesota? Maine? Mew Nersey?

I'm not american, but I'm guessing Michigan.

[Darvi]

Minssouri?

[Sheb]

Mexico, New?

Nah, seriously it's Minnesota.

[mainiac]

Do you have any specific examples to the contrary?

Afraid not, though the recent Biden "chains" comment might come close, and even that is a stretch. What exactly would I input in Google looking for examples, anyway? "liberals not decrying their own"?

Well for the Biden thing it was allegedly offensive to blacks so we could google "Black leaders denounce Biden."  The results: Not Much

Except from the perspective of the other side, you are the one in the wrong.

Yes, I am well aware of that but it doesn't actually substantiate an argument.  Think about intelligent design vs. evolution.  Both sides think the other side is wrong.  Both sides think the others doesn't have any evidence.  Does that mean they are both equally right?

That was not a purely rhetorical question, btw, I want to know if you'd give a yes or no to that.

[scriver]

We're actually being pretty civil. In fact I've never seen abortion come up and be as civil as it is right about now.

It's being civil because everybody is busy doing the circle jerk about how ridiculously silly those conservatives are.

[palsch]

Well for the Biden thing it was allegedly offensive to blacks so we could google "Black leaders denounce Biden."  The results: Not Much

I dunno, there was one comment surrounding that that was fairly offensive.

Sarah Palin saying that the black people in the audience needed to be more offended.

[Leafsnail]

It's being civil because everybody is busy doing the circle jerk about how ridiculously silly those conservatives are.

Yeah.  I don't think I've ever said this before but we're actually strawmanning Republican positions here.

[Darvi]

I thought politics was all about strawmen trying to set each other on fire via flame wars?

[mainiac]

It's being civil because everybody is busy doing the circle jerk about how ridiculously silly those conservatives are.

Yeah.  I don't think I've ever said this before but we're actually strawmanning Republican positions here.

I don't think people were saying that the no such thing as rape idea is a view held by all republicans.  We were just discussing a rather scary subculture that has recently been brought to prominence.

[RedKing]

MN is what, Minnesota? Maine? Mew Nersey?

Mew Nersey = A state populated completely by nasally-meowing cats with attitudes and spray tans.

It's being civil because everybody is busy doing the circle jerk about how ridiculously silly those conservatives are.

Yeah.  I don't think I've ever said this before but we're actually strawmanning Republican positions here.

I don't think people were saying that the no such thing as rape idea is a view held by all republicans.  We were just discussing a rather scary subculture that has recently been brought to prominence.

A subculture which seems to be in the driver's seat of the party the last several years. It's almost the inverse of the No True Scotsman problem. Sure, not ALL Republicans hold to such extreme views. But what percentage? I've seen some recent polls that show as much as 18% of the total population is against abortion under any circumstances. Assuming a rough 50/50 split of the population between the parties, that's potentially 36% of the GOP. When you subtract out the considerable chunk of the population which is oblivious to politics, and the fact that the GOP actually averages less overall party membership in the US than the Democratic Party, that 36% creeps up into the 40's, maybe higher. It's no longer some fringe splinter notion.

[Sheb]

"No abortions under any circumstance" =! "Rape isn't real, and women that get pregnant liked it anyway."

"Rape is terrible, but we should punish the rapist and not the child." is much less disgusting an interpretation of that 20% demographic.

[RedKing]

"No abortions under any circumstance" =! "Rape isn't real, and women that get pregnant liked it anyway."

"Rape is terrible, but we should punish the rapist and not the child." is much less disgusting an interpretation of that 20% demographic.

Well, I was going to make an argument that the "no exceptions, not even for rape and incest" was formerly a fringe position, but when I look at the numbers, they don't support that. Looks like that position has enjoyed 15-20% support for pretty much ever since Roe v. Wade. Lowest was around 12% in 1990 and 1995. Highest (at least by Gallup's numbers) was around 23% in May 2009. Gallup currently has that position at about 20%.

That was eye-opening to see, because that was not a position that was often espoused by even conservative politicians.

[nenjin]

This CNN article seems apropos.

"We feel this is a case of gotcha politics," Mackey told reporters in Tampa, where the Republican National Committee was gathering ahead of the party's convention next week. "He has been elected five times in that community in Missouri. They know who Todd Akin is. We know who Todd Akin is. We've worked with him up on the hill. He's a defender of life."

"Todd Akin is getting a really bad break here," she added. "I don't know anything about the science or the legal implications of his statement. I do know politics, and I know gotcha politics when I see it."

Then they plant this cherry firmly on top of the whip cream.

"He should be careful because based on some of his statements there may be some call for him to get out of his race," Perkins said of Brown. "He has been off the reservation on a number of Republican issues, conservative issues I should say. His support among conservatives is very shallow."

See, 'Gotcha' politics is only bad when it's from the outside coming in. When it's on the inside going to the inside, why, it's just maintaining good party discipline.