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[rephikul]

What do you intend to achieve with this idea? I know you have the raw and all but what's the "idea" here :p

[abstemiousdwarf]

true,i should explaine better the idea.

in this way you convert a stack of plant,5 for  the example,and convert the in 1 only usable plant usable as food

changing the varius value on the reaction give possibility to balance the thing in more way that the normal way of farming(i wish atleast..)

not sure if i'm explaning well the idea

[rephikul]

I see, basically you want to reduce farming output? If that's the case, it's probably shorter and more accurate to remove farming immigrant and the ability to train up farming. That method will achieve the same outcome, with the benefit of also affect easy cooking and clothing while not affect trading and herbalism

[abstemiousdwarf]

my idea is sure more clunky that removing the farming skill,but dont think will be less accurate.

still,kitchen and farmer's shop will process only stack of 1 plant with my idea,this will reduce the speed of work,and reduce the stack valure of prepared food.

plus ,you can give different value for different plant,you could need 5 raw plump helmet for a usable plant,only 3 raw cave wheat for 1 cave wheat and 7 quarry bushes for 1 usable quarry bushes,so you have more controll on every single plant and you can add different product too,as some leaves that will be converted in potash,or some wood log

all this will be done automatically in a custom shop,so no more management during game
then normal

[TehNoob]

Posting to watch.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Dont want to rain onto your parade but your concept cannot be implemented without serve compromises all over the place considering the current status of DF modding capability

Alright, so how far can we get, then?

I've already done extensive expansion of weapons (modding pretty much every listed attribute, and even slightly and gently stretching a few concepts, here and there), without any apparent side effects, as well as adding many different types of metals, and even a few new minerals. The game still runs for me. I've also added quite a few new, pretty heavily modded entities, and a few new monsters, without the game crashing...

You may be right in your assertation, but I have a nagging suspicion that modding isn't nearly as limited as it is sometimes portrayed, and if it is, I'd really like to see more hard proof of the facts, since I've already gone quite a long way with modding, by myself.

[Putnam]

Well, for one, most workshops are hard-coded. You can't rework hardcoded workshops, which means that the entire first point you were making is impossible.

By most, I mean all but the soap maker and craftsman. Pretty sure you can't mod out most of the craftsman workshop reactions, either.

[Meph]

You can add reactions only to a small list of workshops, but create unlimited new ones.

You can only change the vanilla reactions in the reaction_other and reaction_smelter raws. (mostly kiln, soap and smelting)

The only way to alter it is to remove base materials. This is rather radical, but for example: Remove all types of wood.  Add a new tree, that creates an item called logs, with a materail reaction type: make wood, but without the actual WOOD tag. This way, all vanilla reactions that require wood cant be used. Now make a copy of those reactions, with any changes you like (harder,  more complex, and so on) and make those reaction use a material that has the: material reaction type:make wood.

Do the same for stone, gem, metal, ore...

This is a great deal of work. I mean, a colossal amount of work. You would have to alter the other civs as well, otherwise the invaders/traders bring no items.


Another "problem" I see is that most of your proposed changes have no merit for the player.  For example this:

Code: [Select]

One thing I'd like to try is to develope several different methods of preserving meat and fish, so coding ideas for modding in smoking, salting, barrel-brining/pickling, and potting (cooking the meat/fish, then placing it hot in a jug or a jar with herbs, spices, sometimes salt, and covering with either hot tallow, honey, or strong wine or spirits) would be welcome.
Many different, complex ways of making fish. All produce, in the end, the same item. I personally dont see the advantage. The only thing it could be used for is making the reaction more easily aviable on some maps, and harder on others. Like:Frozen fish is easy on a glacier, smoked wish easier in woodland, salting easier in maps with rocksalt...

[SirHoneyBadger]

All of this will likely require a lot of work.

That's the point of my asking for help. If I thought I could plausibly do this myself, in a reasonably short amount of time, I probably would, since it would make consistency and quality-control easier tasks.

I just want it clear that I fully understand the work involved here, possibly better than most, since I've already completed some truly gargantuan projects for Dwarf Fortress, and am still working on even larger ones, years after starting them. (check out my 'Multitudinous Vermin' mod, for instance.).

You can add reactions only to a small list of workshops, but create unlimited new ones.

Would you mind clarifying that statement, please?
Is it possible to add unlimited new reactions, or unlimited new workshops?

Another "problem" I see is that most of your proposed changes have no merit for the player.  For example this: (etc)

I have to strongly disagree, atleast in theory, but please keep in mind that this is only one small facet of what I'm trying to accomplish.

But here are some reasons why it's not an unimportant facet:

Hunting, fishing, and managing of animals are each arguably much more involved, challenging, and interesting than growing food with farms right now, and salt has historically been one of the most highly prized, useful, and highly traded, substances on Earth, and has been the focus of many very interesting points in history--politics, art, wars (and peace), even religion and philosophy have all been affected by salt and it's properties. 

The two (meat and salt) go hand-in-hand very nicely, as they do in real life. 

Eating rocks (and salt is a rock) is certainly "dwarfy", and if humans eat salt as extensively as we do, on average, then it stretches believability to suppose dwarfs would not.

Also, if we're going to have a much more extensive economy, that's rebuilt pretty much from the ground up, then preserved foods certainly deserve a place in that economy, considering that they have been an extremely important part of human economics, and human survival, from the stone age, and continuing.

They involve a lot of different facets of the game, they're scalable, in that they can involve just a few, or very many, resources and processes, and they intrinsically are atleast partially self-balancing (trying to get rich selling megabeast bacon is by it's very nature not typically an easy task).

Fishing would gain significant potential importance, and butchering would likely become more central, considering that it's already fairly "fleshed-out" (the pun was unavoidable).

There should also be quite a bit that can be done food preservation that can help set up some of the groundwork for how other resources/processes, and Value, will be handled and systemized, and modding this in should serve both starting Fortresses, and advanced ones.

[Meph]

Valid buildings are KILN, SMELTER, TANNER, KITCHEN, QUERN, MILLSTONE, STILL, CRAFTSMAN, and any custom buildings.

You can add unlimited reactions to each of those.

You can add unlimited custom workshops and furnaces (only difference is that furnaces require architecture and are under the: b-e submenu, same as smelter and forges)

You can add unlimited reaction to each of these new buildings.

Keep in mind that only 15 reactions are portraied, before you have to scroll down to a secong page in the workshop. This makes workshops with 15,30,45 (and so on) reactions handy.


And what I meant with a lot of work, regarding the workaround to remove the old reactions from the game: You would have to redo every item, reaction, inorcanic mat, material template, tissue template and anything else I can think of for this. AND you would have to old buildings still in the game, just without the ability of using them. It would be very non-economical, a poor solution that requires a vast amount of time. I only mentioned it, because it would theoratically be the only way.

I'd love to help, but currently I have my hands full with my own, unfinished, mod.

Best of luck though

[Putnam]

Actually, IIRC, Mephansteras (Who I liked to call Meph in my mind until you came along >_>) had a problem with crashing after adding ~200 reactions to a single civ.

[rephikul]

Guess I'd elaborate:

Here is a rough list of the most basic (and sometimes easiest) jobs that need done, that I'd like help doing, before we can move on to a real revamp of the game's overall economy:

Firstly, I'd like to completely rework all workshops, as well as most or all furnaces, and some other buildings. This will involve a few renames, as well as a lot more resource requirements for even basic buildings. (so that putting more thought and planning into outfitting your initial 7 expedition will have immediate dividends/repercussions, and will immediately provide and require some basic decisions about what directions you want your Fortress to go in). [/quote]

While as said, you can add an unlimited amount of your own workshops, old ones cannot be overridden nor hidden, making it impossible to bypass most basic reactions even if you want to.

One thing I'd like to try is to develope several different methods of preserving meat and fish, so coding ideas for modding in smoking, salting, barrel-brining/pickling, and potting (cooking the meat/fish, then placing it hot in a jug or a jar with herbs, spices, sometimes salt, and covering with either hot tallow, honey, or strong wine or spirits) would be welcome.

Impossible, unless you are content with convert them into edible stuff without unlimited shelf life.

I'd like to know how feasable it would be to require water to brew drinks, and I'd also like to see some modding suggestions for metal stills, and distillation that actually requires fuel.

Dwarves wont collect water by themselves. It's possible to make distillation to require fuel with custom reactions.

A materials write-up for rock salt that allows it to be gathered (in bags or buckets, if possible) used to manufacture foods, preserve foods, and be traded, and overall to be very useful and valuable as a resource.

Cooking modding is incredible limited.

I also would like some way of making sea salt from sea water, if that's possible (or possible to reasonably fake), and a couple of different varieties of mineral rock salt would be nice.

Not possible

I'd also really like elves, specifically, to trade in a wide variety of wines, including different kinds of fruit wines, as well as things like herbal liquors, so anyone wanting to come up with interesting types of "elvish spirits", who's also willing to do the work of modding them in, would be welcome to do so.

not sure if possible but I have never succeeded

Mostly, though, I'd like some balance to be reached with elves that will give their traders a vibe that occasionally alternates between "dark alchemist of booze" and "snake oil hawker", instead of just the "hippy gypsies" we've got now. A little more mysterious, maybe a touch more sinister, and just more entertaining and Fun, overall. I would like to help players to find themselves looking forward to an elf caravan, for it's own merits, and not just for the opportunity to pick up a few spare rolls of tie-dye, or steal a wooden scimitar, so feel free to suggest other elvish goods.

Vanity stuff are never purchased by anyone due to the lack of true use in DF mode. It doesnt matter that you can sell golden salve for 150 bucks if the mere act of pausing the game for 5 secs to execute those extra reactions already cost so much more at the end of the day. I dont mean dwarves work slower, no. But you get to run more time on your dwarven calendar so unless it's something important it's best to stick to stuff that you can set to auto. Buying 200 bins clothes and mass produce socks is good. 5 barrels of 40 variety of dye isnt.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I think I'm going to have to ask that only people with real modding experience reply to this thread, since I'm getting a lot of incorrect responses, which are only serving to add a very false sense of negativity and hopelessness to this project. 

Please test your suggestions before replying, and please assume that the people playing Dwarf Fortress are a varied bunch, with myriad different playing styles. 

For one thing, it's entirely possible, and quite feasable, to add different types of rocksalt to the game. For another, elves can certainly bring "vanity goods". I've done that, and I happen to enjoy buying and selling such goods.

I'm sure there are others who are interested in doing more with their Fortresses than simply maximizing input and output.

If the only setback to creating a bunch of "preserved" foodstuffs is that they have the same limited shelflife as other goods, then I don't consider that much of a setback. The idea is to add the variety. I don't so much mind a few compromises here and there, as I do a game that's barren of imagination and potential.

Making new workshops, if possible at all, is therefore feasable, and it will serve my purposes. The old ones can stay, and can simply be supported by new ones, or marginalized. Hopefully, the resources required to initially build them can be modded, but if not, it's no big deal to make most or all of the in-game workshops be "first tier".

Distillation with fuel is fine. Can dwarfs be assigned a "gather water via bucket" task? And can that water bucket be used as an ingredient in a reaction? If not, then brewing may have to remain sans water, atleast until the game is further updated.

If I redo every item in the game, does that mean that each new item require a new name? That's fairly easily accomplished with cut&paste. Would this solution then require more than renaming? It doesn't make a lot of sense that it should...

This really isn't seeming like some horrendously difficult proposition. It'll just require patience, thought, and a willingness to put in the hours.

[rephikul]

If I redo every item in the game, does that mean that each new item require a new name? That's fairly easily accomplished with cut&paste. Would this solution then require more than renaming? It doesn't make a lot of sense that it should...

If you want to rename items, you are free to do so. They all however require an unique ID, which's seperated from their ingame displayed name and dont have any connection to each other beyond that. New items also need to be assigned to a civ before they show up in trade and respective vanilla workshops. Custom reactions can create anything.

[Meph]

You cant give them a "collect water" task, but  you can make a reaction that fills a bucket with water. Here you go:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[REACTION:FILL_BUCKET]
   [NAME:fill bucket with water]
   [BUILDING:name here:CUSTOM_F]
   [REAGENT:A:1:BUCKET:NONE:NONE:NONE]
      [EMPTY]
      [NOT_IMPROVED]
      [PRESERVE_REAGENT]
      [DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]
        [DOES_NOT_ABSORB]
   [PRODUCT:100:7:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:WATER:NONE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:A]

Water can also be used as a reagent, here the code:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[REAGENT:water:1:LIQUID_MISC:NONE:WATER:NONE][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150]
   [REAGENT:B:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE]
      [CONTAINS:water]
      [NOT_IMPROVED]
      [PRESERVE_REAGENT]

Again, if you want to make things harder that are hardcoded in the vanilla buildings, try to alter the materials needed, or make it harder to get these materials. I read through your crossbow making, you can use these for better, more powerful crossbows, and leave the old ones like they are. Crossbows also take a great part of their power from the used ammo. You can make the original bolts weaker, and than add your more detailed, more difficult to make bolts with a custom reaction.