Are we going to see fort mode religion get expanded in the relatively near future? I mean stuff like conversion, conflict between opposing faiths, and religious persecution.
Also could we see internal political factions be added? It would be cool to see dwarves worshipping an elven deity vote to limit tree cutting or to legalize cannibalism.
I don't know how far afield will get initially here. There are interesting questions about whether the gods you select have different effects on your defenses etc., and suddenly that makes things a lot more practical, and makes those problems more immediate if they go in, but it is still tangential to the siege update itself.
Fortress subgroups generally are something we've referred to from time to time, but I'm not sure when we'll focus on it. When laws can change they'll probably be necessary at least.
I'm very interested in this mode switching feature. Do you think that in the more distant future, it might be possible to implement multiple mode switches within the same game?
Also, do you think it could be possible to have the world progress consistently in both modes? I'm referring to cities continuing to develop, workshops continuing to operate, etc., while in Adventure Mode, considering that time passes differently in each mode.
Regarding mode switching, I was thinking along these lines: for example, if you're an adventurer, you could only access Fortress Mode if you created that site or if you manage to become the mayor of the location. At that point, a tag would be added to your game, anchoring you to that site. Then, from that site, you could switch to Adventure Mode with any of the inhabitants, and any of them could return to Fortress Mode only at that site. You could only access Fortress Mode in another location if that character, with whom you started Adventure Mode, creates another site or manages to become the mayor of another location. At that point, the old tag would be replaced with the new site, and you would no longer be able to control your old character unless you regain control of the old site.
Would something like this be possible in the distant future? Considering that the difficulty of time differences would have to be overcome first.
Another thing I'd like to ask about is fishing. Is there any intention to make it more realistic? I mean, it's done using a fishing rod, without the characters having to go into the water and catch the fish with their hands.
Putnam:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8573831#msg8573831elanto (op):
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8574371#msg8574371Egan_BW:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8574378#msg8574378elanto (op):
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8574861#msg8574861Yeah, as the replies said, it's in progress but there's a lot of work left to do.
For mode switching, the differences make it hard to support switching rapidly between modes, but we would like to have various ways to initiate switches.
Fishing changes aren't on the near horizon. It would be cool if it were neater.
Do you need more feedback on what to do with the menu? I can provide endless help if needed.
Is there a plan where all menu's get a "full pass", where all menu's become consistent and 100% keyboard/mouse compatible?
Tarn, I have a question regarding squads and militias. Would it be possible to add a "select all squads" button on the squad panel rather than checking all the boxes for a large number of squads!
Can we get a simple hotkey or autofocus for the search/filter text box in the talking UI of adventure mode?
In an unrelated note, as part of the QoL changes, can I request a hotkey to put the user in stockpile creation mode? There's a hotkey to open the stockpile menu, but inside the menu, the "click here to place a new stockpile" button isn't hotkey-able. So, while I can place a workshop under the cursor by smashing out b-w-c or whatever and clicking, I can't place a new stockpile without dragging to the menu, clicking, dragging back, clicking accept, and so on. That would be "magic".
The suggestions board is a better place for things like this. These notes are useful, but they are more likely to get lost here.
A civilization starts with a pantheon of gods, and then a prophet can found a religion based on one of those gods.
1. What do you envision the "religion" entity as? Is it simply a cult practice for a specific god? Do you imagine the ones in-game as representing a broader social order akin to Christianity, Islam, etc?
2. Without a religion entity, will there still be the need for ritualist roles like a folk healer or exorcist?
3. At times, it feels like the game covers up a more culturally complex world with this layer of high-fantasy paint. "Here's a dwarf hillocks, they speak the dwarf language" when the reality is a lot more complex. Do you have anything in mind to help the generated nations and cultures become more distinct and visible in this current world of graphics and Lua?
1. There isn't any nesting or other connection, so it's not a very clear concept. The religion entity right now is just supposed to capture more specific practices than a simple belief in a deity.
2. If it gets to that point, it might imply a religion entity as its currently used, but that situation is about to change and then it won't be clear. Since it's not clear yet what religious 'powers' etc. will be tied to deities or specific practices.
3. I can only do so much with the time I've spent ha ha. Reality will always be more complex. Lots of the upcoming ideas slowly add complexity. So I'm not sure how to answer this. In the near term, probably not - it was a lot of work just to get the clothing etc. to appear graphically, and distinguishing the civilizations further that way will require a lot more graphical work. The same is true of languages. It's a lot of work, and the current dwarven language just isn't complicated enough by itself.
> Scrap good/evil lands for lands with more variety
> Magical landforms generalizing and/or replacing good-evil regions and the underworld
> Can be closely tied in to new magic systems
> Shape/materials related to the creation myth
Are there plans to move away from good/evil lands to creation myth magical lands during this current "arc"? How far away is it, if it's even on the table yet at all?
It's still on the table but there are no more arcs. We're just starting the siege release, but it isn't a vast arc of things. Some magic will be involved though, and we're hoping to get started on related matters.
One of the things I like to do in Fortress Mode is build impressive cathedrals dedicated to whatever happens to be my favorite god in that world.
However, to my knowledge, there is no way to convert dwarves or attract dwarves of a specific cult.
We know dwarves are generally a stubborn race, but one would think that, over time, factors like glorious churches, skillful priests, peer pressure, or reading books written by devout followers could influence more malleable dwarves to convert. On the other hand, a traumatic event might cause someone to change their perspective entirely and choose a completely new path, and perhaps particularly surly dwarves or rebellious teenagers would gravitate toward a god that opposes the dominant faith around them.
At the very least, having a beautiful cathedral dedicated to a specific god should attract more dwarves who already worship that deity, having heard of it somewhere.
Is there a plan to make religion and conversions a mechanic we can actively engage with?
The embark scenarios we've discussed from time to time were meant in part to bring these ideas more clearly into the game, since the fortress would have more associated ideas. But they shouldn't be linked to the founding every time of course. That will still probably be when we dig into it though.
I recently read an interesting book called "Special Operations in the Age of Chivalry, 1100-1500", and the coincidental siege improvement announcement (SO EXCITED! <3) spurred me to ask if we might see anything like this in the future, assuming it hasn't been ruled out as just plain unfun:
1. Invaders using a corrupted citizen to open/unlock doors or pull levers for them
2. Enemy agents/invaders attempting to free caged prisoners
3. Enemy agents attempting to poison important citizens (more possible now with magic changes?)
4. Invaders destroying infrastructure just because they can (I've seen trolls destroy my farm plots, for example, and it always felt like effective attrition against me)
5. Invaders setting fire to buildings
6. Diplomats seeking or offering ransom for people; prisoner exchange
All of these have come up in the discussions, but I doubt we'll get to them all this time through. We do have to watch out for things not being fun - if corrupt citizens don't just steal artifacts but can flat out kill your fortress, there needs to be related mechanics for catching them in advance or otherwise mitigating the loss etc etc.
It is nice to have the XML export back and to have a new functional version of Legends Viewer, however it seems that many other things are lacking in the export, notably world_gen_param.txt file (it is currently very hard to find a world seed to replicate it), world_sites_and_pops.txt, world_history.txt, all map exports (immersing yourself in a world is much easier when you can easily know where is what), and even some data that were previously lacking in the xml file seem to lack now.
I don't know how much work it would require and if it has some priority in the development plan, but will the full world export, like it was before the Premium release, be back in the (close) future? This and the upcoming constructions in Adventure Mode are some of the last things missing in Premium version.
The site building is on the road map. I haven't put the legends mode stuff up there, but we'll do it at some point. I'm not going to hazard a guess about the close future though.
With the new dev process of going for smaller but faster content updates instead of large arcs should we expect to get updates that require a new world to be generated more often ?
On that note, would it ever be possible to have an option to save the shape of a world, (the landmasses, biomes etc) separately from the history, and then being able to re-generate only a history on that specific map. I really like my current world, it has nice beefy mountains
No, I don't think saves will be broken any more often. That's usually related to some specific change that doesn't depend on the update size.
We had a map painter/import thing before, and possibly those still exist in some form? I don't recall if any of that loads currently. I don't have plans for an exporter specifically but it's possibly already a utility someplace. I'm not sure.
A) ASCII Mode and emergent storytelling in v50+
This may just be a me issue, I play v50+ on GeForce NOW as I just have MacOS (https://dwarffortressbugtracker.com/view.php?id=13124). While I do play v50 with sprites (after the hotkey additions), I boot my old v47 install whenever I want to play ASCII. The scaling of the UI in ASCII when zooming (scroll/[/]) is even more difficult now with how the UI is arranged and now partly graphical with icons. Many of the elements seem to scale over one another or off the screen entirely. Any chance ASCII can now have non-scaling UI when zooming, at least as an option?
A couple of other things also stand out:
The mix of faux-ASCII borders on menu tabs and essentially sprite icons for some UI elements feel overly busy/distracting and introduce an aesthetic that wasn’t present in v47. Any chance that these UI elements might be given another pass for readability and aesthetic consistency? I loved the prior clean simplicity.
The presentation of dwarf personality, thoughts, and descriptions has changed significantly in a way that really dampens the emergent story experience of dwarf fortress for me. Instead of being immersive full-screen windows that command your attention to a dwarf’s personality, description, and story, this information is fragmented across small panels that require slow manual tabbing and feel sidelined by the UI. This has really changed the emergent storytelling experience for me. (As well as giving animals odd panels/descriptions.) I understand that the smaller insert has its place, but would it be possible to get another menu, a larger UI element that presents this information in a way that better supports narrative immersion—perhaps something navigable through all residents via keystrokes?
B) Diplomacy & Fortress Integration with the World
With Adventure Mode released, would you consider adding smaller diplomatic features that would help integrate a fortress into its civilization and world?
For example, a few simple messenger actions could add a lot of depth:
Requesting Road Construction: Ask an economically linked site or your mountainhome to build a road to your fortress, appearing as road floor tiles at the edge of the embark map and as a new road on the world map after a set construction time.
Invite Neighbors for Cultural Exchange: Your messenger could be sent to bring a food item or gift to nearby neutral town or a neutral animal-person troupe present on your fortress map. Depending on their preferences and item value, this might lead to them becoming hostile or deciding to visit as long-term residents for the purpose of ‘learning about their neighbors’ or ‘cultural exchange’. This would also add a simple way for animal people to become fortress residents and populations—something Urists have dreamed of for ages!
It's all one grid in ASCII mode. Until we can do play textures that aren't 32x32, that's an engine limitation.
The old interface didn't support the mouse, which makes it harder to keep the old look. Generally, it's not possible for me to support two interfaces. Some things do just look bad though.
We're hoping for more fortress-world integration over time. Improving and complicating diplomacy and trade etc. figures into the notes variously.
1. In the future, when it is possible to create worlds with more random generation, will it extend to categories like animals, plants and stone/metals? And how will graphics work in this case?
2. Will the trees get bigger?
DPh Kraken:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8575520#msg8575520DPh Kraken handled 1 pretty much. We're working on it.
For 2, I think they are fine, generally, but there could be larger trees as we get to those sorts of myth and things. But we're not planning a general enlargement, if that's what you meant.
In the upcoming myth and magic arc, I'm interested to hear about plans for industries that may pop up? I'm a bit of a logistics nerd with DF. Things such as herbalist workshops, alchemy / enchantment workshops, potion workshops ("tinctures", I quite like that word), and if they have connections to natural resources in an embark? So that we might be as much interested in embarking on willow, coca, poppy, aloe, ginger, as we are on lignite, marble, hematite and so forth.
In terms of potions, it would be fun to imbue weapons and arrows and such with certain properties which might affect certain materials or elemental resistances, for example an arrow, imbued (another good word) with fire, might do very well or very badly. Will elemental resistances / modifiers be a thing depending on the properties of different materials?
Yeah, as we go, that's the plan, to get whatever is generated to have a standard-feeling place in the fortress in terms of buildings, skills, jobs, labors, materials, items, etc., just like the real world stuff.
I was wondering about the noble role Champion in Fortress Mode - It appears he is a morale officers of sorts just walking around being a pillar of society and imparting the other dwarfs with special thoughts when talking to him - I was wondering if you could describe this role and what it currently does and if it has any other plans for the future?
Ha ha there's literally nothing else to it. It's a very old position.
A few more questions for Toady: Once worldgen is over, the worlds tend to stagnate in term of history and events, most of these almost come exclusively from player's actions. I know time passing a lot slower during gameplay than during worldgen is a factor, but even without that, it feels like a lot less happen lnce the player plays. Is it something that may be addressed in the future, with a lot more events happening outside your fortress / adventurers' group? Perhaps some possibility to "resume worldgen history" once you retire a fortress or adventurers, to see their consequences ln the world.
This one is not exclusively addressed to Toady, but what is the Watsonian explanation to the fact that despite cave dragons being supposed to be dragons who have adapted to cave life, they still have (vestigial) wings while normal dragons don't, while the latter have no evolutionary interest to lose their wings?
Eric Blank:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8576123#msg8576123A_Curious_Cat:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8576202#msg8576202Eric Blank:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8576418#msg8576418Nopenope:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8576479#msg8576479This is the one of the huge projects of the game. We've taken steps over the last decade or more to make it happen, but things come in over time. It's much, much easier to add features to world generation because it's abstract there, and we do it because it makes for interesting histories, but making them happen in play is harder.
I'm not sure evolution entered into the dragon question. I don't even remember who has wings in the raws if anybody. I could go check but I think I'll just sit on it for now ha ha.
Hi there, what was reason for changing the default worldgen history to 100 years? I ask because the worlds I've played in since coming back had almost no cursed individuals, in particular not a single werecurse; was anything at all changed in worldgen with the Steam release? I only realized the problem was so complete when I used Legends viewer, which was recently rehabilitated. This point may be moot if people can be cursed by the gods without player intervention after worldgen, but as far as I can tell that isn't the case and most things just stop permanently when you start playing.
To be clear, the game warned you if you tried to generate a world younger than 125 years pre-Steam...so I assume you knew it caused some abnormalities. Might it have been to address the necromancer "problem" in some way, or reduce performance issues for some players? (I don't even know if history length does anything to framerate outside of saving/loading)
Here's a good example-this person played a 50-year history world for hundreds of years, seemingly unaware that most processes had gone dead, and there would never even be necromancers, much less curses:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183133.0
Also, same question about mineral occurrence: why everywhere...?
Yeah, it was about performance issues as I recall, though performance has improved a lot since that decision was made.
For minerals, it's just that the game is very frustrating for people when they aren't common. I'd prefer minerals to be more rare so that world-wide trade networks can be more interesting, but that'll be harder to get working.
Double-dipping this time, but I was datamining the Lua stuff and found tables for unimplemented night creatures. I recognize most of them from DF Talk #14, but two caught my eye - "sorcerer" and "royal". Could you tell us a little bit about the roles they would play and if "demon-trained sorcerers" have anything to do with them?
It has nothing to do with the new stuff. I'm not sure sorcerer is different from necromancer and royal is different from mummies? There are other classes like animated furniture and natural undead and marine ones that don't have their colors used at all (though it's unclear if any of this still stands.)
Is there any reason why animal people and experiments can't select a belief?
Why is it that only human civilizations can have chosen ones?
aSpatula66:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8576728#msg8576728A_Curious_Cat:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8576786#msg8576786The replies cover this one.
Dwarfs famously require alcohol. Will this system become more generic in the future and allow other races to require other behaviors? Perhaps elves have to hug a tree daily, while goblins absolutely need to stab someone in the back on a regular basis.
DPh Kraken:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8576810#msg8576810FantasticDorf:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8576864#msg8576864DPh Kraken addressed this pretty well. I'm not sure if we'll add more essential differences (as with the dwarves) or just leaves things as they are, working through the more generic personality stuff. The alcohol dependence predates the personalities if I remember.
Are you ever going to change the descriptions for the five main civilized species? I feel like most of them are not accurate to the species themselves, telling you more about the culture typically associated with that species, which is strange if you are, for example, examining an elf that is a member of a dwarven civ and finds nature repulsive.
Other creature descriptions are typically more about describing the physical appearance and traits of the creature.
Dwarves: "A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry."
All dwarves are fond of (or at least dependent on) alcohol, but you cannot say the same about industry. Dwarves can certainly hold anti-craftsmanship beliefs.
Humans: "A medium-sized creature prone to great ambition"
They aren't really prone to great ambition, their AMBITION personality facet is not any different from any other species.
Elves: "A medium-sized creature dedicated to the ruthless protection of nature."
As mentioned above, elves can dislike or hate nature.
Goblins: "A medium-sized humanoid driven to cruelty by its evil nature."
While somewhat true, (goblins have [PERSONALITY:CRUELTY:50:75:100],) I feel this is kind of misleading, as it encourages players to view all goblins as "evil", when in reality they are effectively just another kind of person; they can be a part of any civ and can have very benevolent beliefs and personalities. They also usually make up a substantial portion of the population of any civ they can access, due to not needing to eat or drink.
Kobolds: "A small, squat humanoid with large pointy ears and yellow glowing eyes."
This one is good, it is simply a physical description of the creature.
Almost all of the descriptions in the game are short and bad (or non-existent), when it comes to creatures and most items and most everything except for the really verbose ones. It hasn't really been a huge priority to improve them, for whatever reason.
Will there be more options to do with prisoners? Such as convincing them to switch side and join you, or ransoming them back to their side, or enslaving them? The last option might sound cruel, but is completely in line with what prisoners are usually used for now (gladiatorial combat and volcano sacrifices).
FantasticDorf:
https://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=183066.msg8576864#msg8576864FantasticDorf covered some of it. We would like to do more with them than just having them sit in cages. We brough up some notes for the siege update again, since prisoners are related there, but it's not the highest priority vs. some of the other siege features.
Are the siege improvements likely to give elves any new magic to use against your fort? While demon-trained sorcerers and the like sound really neat and I'm looking forward to them, it seems to me like elves are in particularly dire need of an upgrade as they currently rely almost entirely on sheer numbers and giant animal cavalry to avoid being curb-stomped by your militia (which can be a bit unsatisfying after the first few times you face them).
For elves, I'm not sure if we're going to focus more on tactics or magic. We had animated trees before, but that's quite a bit harder now the way trees are. Other things are possible of course. They won't be left alone, anyway.
In your ponderings on range, what are your thoughts how that might work with creature size? Like could a bronze colossus punch some thing farther away than the next tile?
I don't know that reach is going to go as far as skipping tiles, since that probably has some very annoying edge (or not so edge) cases, when multiple creatures are involved etc. It's also a UI annoyance when there are lots of creatures around. But for formations later etc., tile skipping also seems very useful. It'll probably be okay if it remains a relationship between adjacent creatures, but that will start to chafe.
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Topic: Future of the Fortress (Read 22469 times)