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Author Topic: Museum IV; the end times have arrived early  (Read 6714 times)

dikbutdagrate

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #180 on: September 13, 2025, 11:07:01 pm »

Dikbut, you can start. I'll drop quantum a few places

OKAY. OKAY! Found it. The source of the crashes has been spotted. Its the data corruption caused by TheFlame52's having saved the game as a separate timeline, and then attempting to move save around without the original timeline accompanying it. 

B-man's its your save, so you gotta' give the direction here on whose turn it is, and who were rewinding back to.

But tested out Erik's save, the original minor stuff aside, it works great.

finally got things started a bit, but then I couldn't do much cause, some other stuff irl fucked with my mental health a bit, I might have to make this one short possibly
Hey buddy, I know your turn was complete trash, so we'll make sure the save is running optimally and you'll likely be getting another turn in the not too distant future, once B-man decides how to proceed. I don't think its right to just skip over you. It wasn't your fault the save was donked up.

To be clear:
I, for one, blame Tarn. TheFlame52 you are not at fault. Nobody understands what Tarn was thinking with respect to the timelines feature. And all they're good for is corrupting save data. But in the future, we need to make sure we're not accidently playing with timelines again. In this instance, the only way to even know it was a separate timeline, was by having an active save here and returning the title screen, and then attempt to continue game.

I don't want people feeling let down or bummed out. The issue was caught, and the save should work smoothly moving forward, and luckily we only have to rewind a little bit. But that means we need to rewind past both Avolition's and TheFlame52's turns, redo those, and then give WonderPsycho an opportunity to actually play.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2025, 11:44:25 pm by dikbutdagrate »
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Eric Blank

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #181 on: September 13, 2025, 11:44:15 pm »

Gonna have to get those timelines ironed out looks like.

I also used a timeline in the course of my save, pretty sure... Dont know at what point it stops being a timeline and just becomes a normal save

Did you let putnam know that has something to do with the crashes?
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

dikbutdagrate

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #182 on: September 13, 2025, 11:51:19 pm »

Gonna have to get those timelines ironed out looks like.

I also used a timeline in the course of my save, pretty sure... Dont know at what point it stops being a timeline and just becomes a normal save

( o _  o ;  )   

OKAY THEN! I am now done with M4.

Good luck, I wish everyone the best, and please take me off the turn list.

If you all need anything, I'm going to be playing NFL Madden, which is like some kind of golf game. Anything that has nothing to do with fantasy. Madden is sort of like Dwarf Fortress when you think about it? You have all of your golfers, with attributes, and bloodlines, and mystical artifacts, and they gain skill over time, and hang around a lot on grassy knolls, and live in underground caverns. And armies are kind of like golf teams. And birds attack you at the golf court. And people get drunk and throw things at each other, and a chicken gets sent to jail as a scapegoat cover-op. Just like golf.

Good-bye. And a very merry John Madden one and all.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2025, 11:53:22 pm by dikbutdagrate »
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dikbutdagrate

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #183 on: September 14, 2025, 12:49:38 am »

*Sigh* Its actually premature to conclude that the timelines thing is the actual source of the corruption, I mean, apparently, it could be, depending on what people were doing exactly, and did exactly, in between saving and what not. Moving a save while the save was still loaded, and then attempting to save is liable to actually explain a good number of things.

Putnam and Rome are currently a taking closer look at Turn 4 Museum, and now the art section of legends, in particular, is of major interest. Looks like a fix for that will be a thing.

The plan now is to go through and delete game files one at a time, and play pin the tail on the corrupt data feature. Once the source of the corruption is found, and we've identified the cavern feature layer responsible, we can study it. My plan is to do a live transplant on the cavern feature layer's data file, by using a donor of the same world gen parameters and world generation seed.

I guess stay tuned to find out if we need to rewind or not, or whether the save is getting another round of surgery.

"Ooooooh, 191 feature-* .txt files on the wall, 191 feature-* .txts! You trash one, load up, and walk for a bit, and if the game crashes you put that shit back and take another .txt off the wall! 190 feature-* .txt files on the wall... etc. etc."
« Last Edit: September 14, 2025, 01:03:56 am by dikbutdagrate »
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Eric Blank

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #184 on: September 14, 2025, 02:22:06 am »

Well, if we can help in any way, i would. Id also say definitely wait for the master bug chaser to finish chasing bugs before declaring it dead.

Also, it may be that the corrupted file was a recent corruption and older versions from prior saves can be used.
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

dikbutdagrate

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #185 on: September 14, 2025, 02:49:19 am »

Well, if we can help in any way, i would. Id also say definitely wait for the master bug chaser to finish chasing bugs before declaring it dead.

Also, it may be that the corrupted file was a recent corruption and older versions from prior saves can be used.

I found it. Like legit I FOUND IT. And I fixed it. Tested it, and it runs great. But my solution was lazy. And there's something of a problem/concern/dead-end of sorts, what have you, which complicates things.

Its not just one file, its TWO. And the two different crash log variants I've been getting seems to suggest this as well.

After awhile I said "fuck it", and I went with the nuclear option, and deleted all of them, in a mad fit of hysterical madness. And it worked, surprisingly.

My test fort "TestFortress" ran great. Adv-mode, no crashes. New features populated well, and the save file was stable. Who'd have thought? What could go wrong? Nothing! It fixed everything. Everything was fucked, so we got rid of it. Every Feature-.dat file, gone trash. PEACE - See ya. We don't know what went wrong, but things got fixed.

But as Putnam pointed out, and I myself just noted, we still don't know what went wrong in the first place, and finding the file would be awesome. So in the interest of this, Putnam suggested a binary search nuclear destroy pattern, in order to expedite things. Delete half and see if it fixes shit, then delete a quarter, if shits broke, delete the other quarter, and narrow it down. Smart thinkin! But things went wrong pretty quickly.  Clearly, the corruption was in the first half of the 191 files, that was clear after some testing. What was not clear, was why the game was still crashing when either one of the two quarters of that corrupted 1/2 of files were left in the game.

So there's two of these corrupt pieces of missingno. filth. Apparently, that's a thing.

And I played hotshots golf for a little while today, but didn't understand why there wasn't more jumping and somekind of talking mime who yells "FOUL!", and spent time hanging out with those tall things over there, who live in the corner and whisper at me, and made plans to make a golf fortress mod, where you have crossbow-like ranged weapons that fire notched golf balls at alligators and windmill monsters and flag-poles. And the wagon creatures are golf carts. And the only workshop is a computer that allows you to buy shit on ebay. So I've gone insane. More so than usual.

I can fix the save with hellfire. But it won't do much good for determining the source of the bug. And perhaps, I owe it to my fellow df players to find both. Maybe some of the bay12 users here don't want me doing jack to the save, and want to let it rot in a gutter, fine by me, good riddance. Maybe I can get some feedback here before I start shoving parts of the save into a literal data woodchipper, and making unilateral decisions about the fate of the world, and its inhabitants before I reset the world's population of sailfin mollies, ospreys, and gorlaks, and like alligators I think? All of those are extinct btw, well except gorlaks. 

I'm going to return to my golfing for the rest of the night, and I'll see what the responses are tomorrow, and go from there.


----
Even if the save runs great now after a scorched earth campaign, as Putnam and Rome noted, this save is "proper fucked." Like, even if I 'fix' it, and the save is able to run without crashing, where it can spawn birds, caribou, and cave fish people down in caverns—species once thought extinct. Sure, the train that is this save may technically be 'running,' but it’s doing so completely off the rails. There are no tracks to guide it anymore. The illusion of forward momentum which is seen in the prior turns is merely caused by the downward sliding trajectory of this train as it travels down the rocky scree of a mountainside, careening into timber laden uncertainty, free falling off of a sheer cliff, or meeting its thunderous head-on collision and end as it smashes into the unyielding side wall of yet another mountain.

The save is already doomed. Corruption is permanently caked within it. There is no simple fix for the save. It is already dead. But players can choose to still play on it, none the less. The save is doomed to share a similar fate to Museum III, in its current version. Whatever people did to it, whatever subtle tweaks were made, all of which I cautioned strongly against, have evidently caused irreparable harm to the save file's stability. And that is definitely the case. And there is no way to walk this shit back without rewinding turns. All I can do if people want to move forward with this, is give the save an emergency tracheostomy to keep it breathing, and stop the crashes for a little while. But something else will invariably show up later, and slowly the world is just going to become more and more fucked.   
« Last Edit: September 14, 2025, 07:07:36 pm by dikbutdagrate »
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Eric Blank

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #186 on: September 14, 2025, 03:39:19 am »

First half is the chief suspect, got it. Ill try that division tactic too and see if i can narrow it down.

Just like fixing my skyrim install after a cascade of mods breaking after an update.
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

dikbutdagrate

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #187 on: September 14, 2025, 03:42:08 am »

First half is the chief suspect, got it. Ill try that division tactic too and see if i can narrow it down.

Just like fixing my skyrim install after a cascade of mods breaking after an update.

I edited my post to include an afterword, its worth reading. Just making sure you got the context, and crap. It wasn't easy to type. I've been sitting in the same place all day, without moving since 2pm? Its now 11:41 pm, messing with this save. When I mentioned I played "golf", all I did was look at a title screen, or something, and mumble to myself before Putnam started pinging me and I jumped back into it.
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Eric Blank

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #188 on: September 14, 2025, 03:45:26 am »

Well, alright then... Im not a qualified code surgeon.
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

dikbutdagrate

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #189 on: September 14, 2025, 03:46:30 am »

Well, alright then... Im not a qualified code surgeon.

There isn't really a thing for that lol.

Its uhh... you know. Whatever people want to do here.

Do we:
a.) nuke it with hellfire and keep it going?
b.) play spot the bug and fix the precise corrupt feature files?
c.) Do we rewind to the beginning? As its not just the feature files, there's another stuff wrong with this save, a bunch of stuff, it just isn't causing crashes... yet.

Just tell me how to proceed, so everyone gets a sense of agency here, and ability to provide input, so we can get a vibe of collective decision making, so nobody feels robbed or left out or whatever.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2025, 03:50:04 am by dikbutdagrate »
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Eric Blank

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #190 on: September 14, 2025, 03:49:43 am »

Wait, does deleting underground feature files really cause the game to start calling in wildlife at random? That sounds vaguely amusing
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

dikbutdagrate

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #191 on: September 14, 2025, 03:54:52 am »

Wait, does deleting underground feature files really cause the game to start calling in wildlife at random? That sounds vaguely amusing

Yeah, kind of. It'll generate new stuff adhoc, but like I said, it does so as a desperate failsafe, and it pretty much perma cripples the game. The way I used to do it was manually via the structures and adding in data, rather than relying on automatic repopulation of missing fields.

Putnam gets mad about this shit all the time. Although in this case, there isn't much else to do. As per the mutual understanding here. Otherwise, the shit just crashes, so what else is there to do?

Back in the day, apparently, google would point to threads listing these sorts of solutions when you'd look up certain problems, and these threads of course were posted on reddit. And most of the time the actual fixes that were required were much simpler and didn't rely on perfectly fucking up your save. Apparently, all sorts of shit can go wrong with this with this particular practice.

And like I said, this isn't the only thing wrong with the save. There's lots of whacky shit. Did you see that artifact shirt image I posted? I've never seen that appear on a relic before. And it was the first piece of art listed in the Art portion of legends. There is something seriously fucking wrong with the art pointers in the game already. There's no telling when we'll start looking at engravings and it'll just unilaterally trigger a crash. But that is absolutely going to happen at some point. Unless the fix Putnam has in mind for the game actually prevents this from effecting us in the future. I mean shit, open up legends and go to art. You'll see its already fucked.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2025, 04:00:37 am by dikbutdagrate »
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Eric Blank

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #192 on: September 14, 2025, 04:00:23 am »

I actually didnt understand the problem with it at first, tbh. Im guessing theres no way it would pull a random rodent man civ's symbol without serious corruption?
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

dikbutdagrate

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #193 on: September 14, 2025, 04:01:51 am »

I actually didnt understand the problem with it at first, tbh. Im guessing theres no way it would pull a random rodent man civ's symbol without serious corruption?

Erik... Rodent men civs don't use symbols... What is it pointing at? Where would he have even acquired it from? Civs don't decorate their items with civ images from other civs. And rodent civs don't even have the ability to make clothing. The rodent men civ doesn't even have a name lol. I understand why it was this npc's favorite shirt, its sort of my favorite also. I'm debating getting a shirt just like it IRL, but with a ratman with sunglasses on the back, and covering in special scented oils.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2025, 06:41:29 am by dikbutdagrate »
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Eric Blank

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Re: Museum IV; adventure mode succession game in a new world
« Reply #194 on: September 14, 2025, 06:02:15 am »

I totally missed that... Or rather, no i didn't realize subterranean civs don't make symbols, I just assumed they did create symbols for themselves but I'd never seen them because of the lack of things for them to show up on and I've never gone trawling through the legends info to find them.
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.
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