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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: nick56x on August 02, 2014, 12:49:08 am

Title: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: nick56x on August 02, 2014, 12:49:08 am
What's the ideal armour setup? As in, not the material. But what pieces?

For the body, I am thinking:

For the legs:

For the feet:

For the hands:

And for the head, just a helm.


Is this decent? What's your ideal armour setup? I'm curious, haha.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Baffler on August 02, 2014, 12:58:04 am
I don't usually bother with gauntlets or greaves, leggings tend to be enough protection for the legs. I don't really have a good reason to skip the gauntlets though, other than saving resources. If you consider a shield as armor though, I would definitely include one.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: nick56x on August 02, 2014, 01:02:13 am
Hm, do you know whether or not Dwarves ditch their current armour for better armour? I just witnessed one of my Dwarves wearing a breastplate pick up a mailshirt, and.. the brestplate vanished.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: nick56x on August 02, 2014, 01:03:32 am
I take that back. The breastplate didn't vanish, it just occupied the space where the mailshirt was. Though, my question still applies. Do Dwarves ditch their armour for better armour? Surely a mailshirt isn't better than a damned breastplate.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: crossmr on August 02, 2014, 02:09:52 am
it depends how you have their uniform set up. I tend to set up specific exact match uniforms and make those.

If you just have them set up for "breastplate" with no material indicated, then they'll try and pick the best one.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Chevaleresse on August 02, 2014, 02:48:00 am
A dwarf should be able to wear a breastplate over a mail shirt.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: nick56x on August 02, 2014, 02:52:39 am
Weird. All three of my Dwarves (I only have 15 Dwarves at the moment) in my squad dropped their breastplate and wore mailshirts.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: BlackFlyme on August 02, 2014, 02:56:35 am
Mail shirts have a higher base value than breastplates. Militia will grab the most valuable equipment they can when they outfit themselves.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Mimodo on August 02, 2014, 03:04:03 am
I create a new uniform for all dwarf squads which includes

Metal Breastplate
Metal Mailshirt
Metal Helm
Metal Greaves
Metal Gauntlets
Metal High Boots
Leather Cloak
Shield

Which metal depends on what's going at the moment, but when I choose replace clothing, they wear it all perfectly. They won't change armour for better pieces unless you specifically direct them to do so either.

I haven't actually seen it myself, but apparently cloaks are almost essential to any military armour set
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: crossmr on August 02, 2014, 03:30:03 am
You have no helm why?
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Mimodo on August 02, 2014, 03:31:42 am
You have no helm why?

Because I forgot to write it :p I include a helmet for sure
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Saiko Kila on August 02, 2014, 03:35:28 am
You have no helm why?

There's no social equipment slot in DF yet, so you must actually remove the helmet to show your face.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Nasty on August 02, 2014, 03:49:03 am
Yeah Helm is a must considering headshots are a priority when a dwarf is down. If using metal armor I skip breastplates because they are so heavy if the dwarf isn't a skilled armor user. Set uniforms to replace if you are sure you have all of the gear to ensure the dwarf actually wears everything he has assigned rather than just a helm and vest.

I generally go mail shirt, gauntlet, greaves, helm, high boot, wood shield for my melee dwarves. Mail shirt wont stop bruising or blunt attacks very well, but if a dwarf is encumbered he will be attacking and dodging far less and will be hit much more and will be far less effective. I think my setup is actually on the heavy side and might be slowing them down a fair bit and only the chest is vulnerable to blunt attack, but they seem to dodge alright a lot of the time. I refuse to use danger rooms to boost armor user, if you're doing that they'll probably be alright with a mail shirt/breastplate combo. Steel is a short term priority upon embark, and my metalworking industry and mining are all focused on getting a few suits of it out as soon as space has been cleared for the necessary farms, stockpiles and workshops. Half the fun is trying to streamline the embark to get a fully armored squad out behind a moat and stockade in personal record time.

My archers and justice dwarves just get leather (the fortress guard might need chase a mischievous dwarf or two down and need to travel light). So thats leather armor, leggings, helm, high boot, wood shield, any crossbow. Not really bothered with anything else at it doesn't provide armor and will only make the dwarves run around trying to scab new higher quality socks and whathaveyou if any are produced rather than patrolling the ramparts and practicing.

Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Mimodo on August 02, 2014, 04:45:21 am
So you'd recommend ditching the breastplate altogether? That'd save me a bit of stieel! I only just got to flux stone, so they're all geared up in iron at the moment.

For archers I just use the default archer uniform, which generally works out alright. None of my dwarves are yet battle tested though, so I have a feeling they'll end up a goblin pincushion very quickly still
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Nasty on August 02, 2014, 05:13:13 am
Definitely until they have a few ranks in armor user at least. Some even recommend ditching the greaves for leggings, but I am quite paranoid about this because leg injuries are quite common and can be fatal in a big melee when everyone is too preoccupied with their own combats to come to the rescue of a downed dwarf.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: martinuzz on August 02, 2014, 06:59:09 am
I create a new uniform for all dwarf squads which includes

Metal Breastplate
Metal Mailshirt
Metal Helm
Metal Greaves
Metal Gauntlets
Metal High Boots
Leather Cloak
Shield
Same, except instead of leather cloaks, silk cloak, cause apparently silk offers better protection value.
Why cloaks? They protect the face. Helmets don't.

As for the breastplate, I usually wait with adding that to the uniform until the dwarves got at least proficient armor skill, and some strenght boost from their combat proficiency gains.
Armor use trains reasonably fast while sparring, no danger rooms needed.

About shields. I see some people use wooden shields. I still use steel shields, because AFAIK, not only can shields be used to block, apart from that, they do also count as armor piece, for I think hands and lower arm, someone correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Mlamlah on August 02, 2014, 08:15:27 am
From what i can tell wooden and metal shields are just as effective as one another for defensive purposes, except wood is lighter and less valuable, which to me makes it ideal. It is worth considering that metal shields are more effective at shield bashing though.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Nasty on August 03, 2014, 09:46:37 am
Metal makes it better for bashing, but wood will still block anything and is lighter.

Mail protects the neck and face, not the helmet.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Girlinhat on August 03, 2014, 10:25:41 am
Metal makes it better for bashing, but wood will still block anything and is lighter.

Mail protects the neck and face, not the helmet.
Copper is the best material for shield bashing, as it's the heaviest metal for shields (aside from artifacts, which would be platinum).  Featherwood is also the best material for shields in general, as it's the lightest wood available, and will encumber the dwarf the least, retaining their speed.  It doesn't really matter though, I usually just give them a shield to match their armor material.

A mail shirt protects the upper arms, upper body (rib cage), lower body (stomach), and upper legs.  A mail shirt is the only vanilla piece of metal armor that will protect the upper arms.

A cloak protects the mouth, nose, and ears, which a helmet does not.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: lianopbs on August 03, 2014, 10:37:10 am
are robe and dresses just as good as cloaks ? they do about have even more coverage then cloaks in the raws.



Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Deepblade on August 03, 2014, 11:38:38 am
are robe and dresses just as good as cloaks ? they do about have even more coverage then cloaks in the raws.

The wiki has a list of maximum coverage in the Armor Section (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Armor).
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: dbay on August 03, 2014, 08:46:49 pm
You can wear three layers of mail shirts AND a breastplate, so you don't need to either/or (if you only could pick one, I'd pick the mail shirt because it gets more coverage).
As for greaves vs leggings, I go with greaves, because high boots (chain) cover up to the knees and mail shirt (chain) covers down to the knees, so with greaves, the legs get mail and plate protection vs. 2 layers of chain.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: krenshala on August 03, 2014, 10:01:00 pm
I know some of you are aware, but for the rest, don't forget that DF checks each layer of clothing/armor when the target takes a hit.  It only displays the layer that blocks the shot, or the last layer to fail to block, when it gives the combat report entry.  If the cloak stops it, it never gets to mail or brestplate.  If your sock stops the attack, that means it got through your boot/shoe first.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Berserkenstein on August 03, 2014, 10:11:26 pm
I know some of you are aware, but for the rest, don't forget that DF checks each layer of clothing/armor when the target takes a hit.  It only displays the layer that blocks the shot, or the last layer to fail to block, when it gives the combat report entry.  If the cloak stops it, it never gets to mail or brestplate.  If your sock stops the attack, that means it got through your boot/shoe first.

In my experience having tons of layers is probably more of a detriment than a benefit.  It takes more time and resources and makes your dwarf sluggish if they aren't skilled armor users and if they are, then they won't need tons of armor anyway.  I rather have them be able to attack earlier and more often.

I haven't done the maximum layers or used danger rooms since 31.25.  I find it is generally better to just get armor coverage everywhere.

I've always used the following armor coverage and have rarely had any injuries using bronze, iron, or steel armor:

1 breastplate
1 mail shirt
1 cloak
1 greave
1 pair of trousers
1 pair of gauntlets
1 pair of mittens
1 pair of high boots
1 helm
1 hood
1 shield

Bare minimum coverage while metal industry is still new or if iron is nonexistent and I gotta buy from caravan or murder invaders:

1 mail shirt
1 cloak
1 helm
1 hood
1 high boots
1 pair of gauntlets
1 pair of mittens
1 shield

Leather gear for peasants or fast marksdwarves:

1 leather armor
1 cloak
1 leather helm
1 hood
1 pair of leather leggings
1 pair of trousers
1 pair of mittens
1 pair of leather high boots
1 leather or elven shield
Marksdwarves get a wood or bone crossbow
Peasants get copper war hammers which are pretty effective for how dirt cheap they are, especially in the new version.

I haven't allowed my dwarves socks since there used to be the 1 boot bug from awhile ago and I've never noticed anything bad happen to start using socks again.

As far as I've noticed, the difference between cloth and leather is rather small, from my anectdotal evidence of masterwork rope reed cloak deflections occurring as much as leather cloaks do. 

If it won't be deflected by cloth, leather is probably not gonna stop it either.  The only time I prefer leather over cloth is when I use all leather armor without gauntlets.

I also melt all armor that is not at least exceptional quality and reforge it until it is exceptional or better.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: krenshala on August 03, 2014, 11:02:37 pm
Oh, I agree about excessive layering just making it easier to hit (if not hurt) your dwarves. I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware that was how it worked.  Your set up looks almost exactly the same as mine, by the way.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Lormax on August 04, 2014, 08:18:47 pm
I know some of you are aware, but for the rest, don't forget that DF checks each layer of clothing/armor when the target takes a hit.  It only displays the layer that blocks the shot, or the last layer to fail to block, when it gives the combat report entry.  If the cloak stops it, it never gets to mail or brestplate.  If your sock stops the attack, that means it got through your boot/shoe first.

In my experience having tons of layers is probably more of a detriment than a benefit.  It takes more time and resources and makes your dwarf sluggish if they aren't skilled armor users and if they are, then they won't need tons of armor anyway.  I rather have them be able to attack earlier and more often.

I haven't done the maximum layers or used danger rooms since 31.25.  I find it is generally better to just get armor coverage everywhere.

I've always used the following armor coverage and have rarely had any injuries using bronze, iron, or steel armor:

1 breastplate
1 mail shirt
1 cloak
1 greave
1 pair of trousers
1 pair of gauntlets
1 pair of mittens
1 pair of high boots
1 helm
1 hood
1 shield

Bare minimum coverage while metal industry is still new or if iron is nonexistent and I gotta buy from caravan or murder invaders:

1 mail shirt
1 cloak
1 helm
1 hood
1 high boots
1 pair of gauntlets
1 pair of mittens
1 shield

Leather gear for peasants or fast marksdwarves:

1 leather armor
1 cloak
1 leather helm
1 hood
1 pair of leather leggings
1 pair of trousers
1 pair of mittens
1 pair of leather high boots
1 leather or elven shield
Marksdwarves get a wood or bone crossbow
Peasants get copper war hammers which are pretty effective for how dirt cheap they are, especially in the new version.

I haven't allowed my dwarves socks since there used to be the 1 boot bug from awhile ago and I've never noticed anything bad happen to start using socks again.

As far as I've noticed, the difference between cloth and leather is rather small, from my anectdotal evidence of masterwork rope reed cloak deflections occurring as much as leather cloaks do. 

If it won't be deflected by cloth, leather is probably not gonna stop it either.  The only time I prefer leather over cloth is when I use all leather armor without gauntlets.

I also melt all armor that is not at least exceptional quality and reforge it until it is exceptional or better.


How do you get peasants to equip any armor at all?  I have no clue how to do that.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: krenshala on August 04, 2014, 08:59:07 pm
They have to be part of a squad, and set to wear their uniform while not-active.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: thepaan on August 25, 2014, 06:01:46 pm
A cloak protects the mouth, nose, and ears, which a helmet does not.

Ah! So, that's why my dwarves all have severed noses and ears, and are missing all their teeth...
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: khearn on August 25, 2014, 06:55:13 pm
As mentioned above, dwarves will wear the most valuable piece of armor available for a given slot. This does not mean the best. They will happily wear a ≡«☼copper mail shirt☼»≡ instead of a -steel mail shirt- if the copper is more expensive. It's mainly only an issue with stuff you've bought from caravans (unless you make a habit of decorating crappy armor), but it's something to watch out for.

   Keith
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Urist McShire on August 25, 2014, 07:10:01 pm
My ideal armour setup is as follows:

1 x breastplate
1 x mail shirt (occasionally 2x)
1 x cloak (yarn or leather, simply because I like having wool cloaks)
1 x leather robes (just to add one more layer of protection)
1 x pair of gauntlets
1 x helm
1 x pair of high boots
1 x pair of greaves
1 x wooden shield
1 x weapon

Offers full protection for the dwarves from just about any attack, and I even have my marksdwarves wear it. Since the update to v.40.XX it's become a lot more effective to just have them train and spar, and even your marksdwarves will gain armour user skill, which helps in case the enemy closes on them so they aren't so squishy.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: PillarsOfSalt on August 25, 2014, 08:28:41 pm
I create a new uniform for all dwarf squads which includes

Metal Breastplate
Metal Mailshirt
Metal Helm
Metal Greaves
Metal Gauntlets
Metal High Boots
Leather Cloak
Shield

Which metal depends on what's going at the moment, but when I choose replace clothing, they wear it all perfectly. They won't change armour for better pieces unless you specifically direct them to do so either.

I haven't actually seen it myself, but apparently cloaks are almost essential to any military armour set

I use this setup as well. Cloaks are the only item that will protect the throat and they don't weigh much so why not?
 I never used to give them mailshirts, just breastplates, until I lost half a squad to upper arm injuries. They drop their weapon and shield then it's pretty much all over... My hammerer is a survivor of that debacle. Her left arm is chopped off at the shoulder and the right one hangs uselessly.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Borge on August 25, 2014, 08:39:58 pm
Adamantine mail shirt, Steel everything else.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: aurumvorax on August 25, 2014, 11:52:42 pm
my uniform that i give to the military once i have a metal industry running is usually:
helm, 2 hoods
3 mail shirts, breastplate
gauntlets
2 trousers, greaves
high boots
8 cloaks

i dont give mittens or socks becouse for some reason is really hard to figure out for dwarves(i dont know is this has been fixed i got used to this setup).And always remember shields
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Skullsploder on August 26, 2014, 12:22:32 am
I give my melee dwarves:

Gauntlets
High boots
Breastplate
Mail shirt
Helm
Greaves
Wood shield

Marksdwarves (squad leaders/elites equipped like melee dwarves):

Gauntlets
Mail shirt
Leather chestpiece
Helm
High boots
Copper crossbow
Wood shield

Civilians:

Same as marksdwarves+silver hammer.
My civilians can each keep a gob melee squad busy for a good while, just by standing there spraying bolts.

I used to also give everyoine:

6xcloak
6xhood
2xtrousers
Mittens

But since I introduced a civilian uniform I've just done away with normal clothing altogether, because getting rid of worn clothes is a hassle.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: PillarsOfSalt on August 26, 2014, 01:31:17 am
Are all these layers really that helpful? My military don't wear any civilian clothes...
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Gentlefish on August 26, 2014, 01:35:52 am
Why has no one mentioned chausses? Basically they're chainmail socks.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Zammer990 on August 26, 2014, 01:38:24 am
I create a new uniform for all dwarf squads which includes

Metal Breastplate
Metal Mailshirt
Metal Helm
Metal Greaves
Metal Gauntlets
Metal High Boots
Leather Cloak
Shield

Which metal depends on what's going at the moment, but when I choose replace clothing, they wear it all perfectly. They won't change armour for better pieces unless you specifically direct them to do so either.

I haven't actually seen it myself, but apparently cloaks are almost essential to any military armour set

I use this setup as well. Cloaks are the only item that will protect the throat and they don't weigh much so why not?
 I never used to give them mailshirts, just breastplates, until I lost half a squad to upper arm injuries. They drop their weapon and shield then it's pretty much all over... My hammerer is a survivor of that debacle. Her left arm is chopped off at the shoulder and the right one hangs uselessly.
A mail shirt also covers the throat

And can you buy metal chausses?
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Minnakht on August 26, 2014, 03:59:14 am
Why has no one mentioned chausses? Basically they're chainmail socks.

Because dwarves can't make them unless you mod them.

Also, they're more like chainmail stockings - they go all the way up the leg. Really wish dwarves could make them, that sounds useful.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Rafatio on August 26, 2014, 05:16:24 am
Has anyone experience with metal masks? I get an annual delivery from my gobbos, and my civilians like wearing them. Would it be a good idea to give them to the military instead? Those are currently on hood+steel helm. No idea what masks protect and if that is covered by something else.

Its also weird to see X iron mask X, they wear out like socks.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Bumber on August 26, 2014, 10:38:16 pm
Has anyone experience with metal masks? I get an annual delivery from my gobbos, and my civilians like wearing them. Would it be a good idea to give them to the military instead? Those are currently on hood+steel helm. No idea what masks protect and if that is covered by something else.
They cover the head like caps, helms, etc. Your best defense for faces is chain mail, strangely.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Rafatio on August 26, 2014, 11:05:15 pm
Now I need to figure out how to equip chainmail on the head slot, turban-like maybe? :P

My dwarven children send their thanks, they will be allowed to keep the masks, wasn't looking forward to regularly replacing foreign items anyway, soldiers already have chain and helm.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Bumber on August 26, 2014, 11:10:52 pm
Now I need to figure out how to equip chainmail on the head slot, turban-like maybe? :P
It equips on the chest slot but covers everything shown in the pic.

How or why things like dresses cover the toes but not the feet is anybody's guess.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: StagnantSoul on August 27, 2014, 03:48:01 am
I use three armor suits-
A) Heavy soldier
One helmet
Three leather hoods
Three leather cloaks
One mail shirt
One breastplate
One metal
Leather mittens
Metal gauntlets
Chain leggings
Two leather trousers
Metal high boots
The strongest weapon I can give them

B) Normal soldier
Metal helm
Leather hood
Leather cloak
Metal mail shirt
Leather armor
Wooden shield
Leather gloves
Chain leggings
Leather high boots

C) Man at arms
Metal helm
Leather cloak
Mail shirt
Leather armor
Wooden shield
Leather gloves
Leather leggings
Leather high boots
Either a spear, sword, or hammer.

The militia survive surprisingly well, only losing one or two per siege. The heavy soldiers cut a clean path through the enemy, considering I force them to use the best. With enough patience, they could all be swinging artifacts.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Minnakht on August 27, 2014, 04:46:36 am
Since gauntlets cover the lower arm, mail shirts hang down over the upper legs, and high boots cover the lower legs, I'd consider the following:

metal helm
metal mail shirt
metal gauntlets
metal high boots

to be a minimum, which puts a single layer of metal on all the parts, protecting them from being cut off easily (technically they could easily come apart at elbow and knee, but the game doesn't know how to simulate that). Greaves are an extra, so are breastplates, especially since you can put an extra two mail shirts on each dwarf.

It's important to protect the limbs so that dwarves don't drop their weapon/shield/themselves to the ground. That makes them much less effective.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: C27 on August 27, 2014, 06:40:50 am
I prefer using iron for armor, as it'll block anything non-steel effectively and is far easier to manufacture than steel is.

Regular infantry equipment:
Steel melee weapon
Wooden shield
Iron helm
Iron mail shirt
Iron gauntlets
Iron high boots
Dimple-dyed pig tail cloak
and shirt/trousers/socks (not important).

Heavy infantry will tend to get breastplates and greaves on top of that, and iron shields.
Marksdwarfs usually just get an iron helm, shield, blue cloak, maybe a leather armor if I have a lot of leather around. They're generally used to man fortifications so don't need that much protection.
Title: Re: What's the Ideal Armour Setup?
Post by: Larix on August 27, 2014, 06:57:54 am
Has anyone experience with metal masks? I get an annual delivery from my gobbos, and my civilians like wearing them. Would it be a good idea to give them to the military instead?

As said below, no. Masks only cover the head, with only partial coverage, and they're shaped. Helms are better.

And as you observed, they are not defined as armour - which is why civilians will wear them, and why they wear out.

My standard .34 armour setup is
Helm
mail shirt
greaves
(high) boots
gauntlets
shield (any)

All but the shield metal. If better metals are available in small amounts, helm and mail have priority. I rarely bother making breastplates - by the time my soldiers can wear both a mail shirt and a plate without being slowed to a crawl, they won't get hit any longer anyway. If the soldiers prove rudimentarily competent in equipping themselves, i also allow them to wear cloaks, hoods and socks; usually they have to do without. Haven't played much .40 yet, so haven't an idea whether loading soldiers up with more armour earlier is feasible now.