Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Mr. T on August 02, 2008, 01:56:13 am
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The game appears and disappears due to hosting problems, but I looks like this is a clone of Dwarf Fortress with music, sprite graphics, and an in depth system with some innovations not seen in Dwarf Fortress, but otherwise a copy, with the adventure and strategy mix, starting with wagons, similar combat damage system, and even the mushroom-logs for wood in caves. The coding for BYOND is similar to Java, and techniques could be transferable. The creator's screen-name is Ginseng.
I used to get on BYOND a lot and knew of this before I played Dwarf Fortress, and though Dwarf Fortress is better, if the information was shared the results would be amazing for both parties.
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Toady's said before he doesn't want to work with others, and personally I don't see why he'd team up with someone who is already making a similar (and inevitably inferior) game.
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The games have two very big differences, one is multiplayer the other isn't.
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BYOND is fantastic, lovely and gorgeous ( ;) ), but you'd be hard pressed to get something on the scale of DF running smoothly.
It actually supports features like a DF-style text mode right of the box, but it's simply not fast enough to run all the pathfinding and such that DF does in real-time and get a decent frame rate.
Still, they're welcome to try!
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Why was Byond still on my hard drive...
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Thanks for the new bookmarked game site ;D
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If Toady doesn't want to, that's his prerogative. Personally, while I played BYOND first, I'm disappointed to know that Ginseng basically ripped the game from Toady, especially when I've known how good Gin is at making games. I thought Toady might want to know that somebody basically stole the idea, what he does with the information is not my concern. Still, it IS multiplayer, real-time, and has a lot of races to play as well, and it makes me wonder, if Toady worked out a system like that, Dwarf Fortress would be at a new level entirely. Also, the BYOND engine gives good clues as to how to utilize tilesets. Look at Mystic Journey, Failed Fate 0, Resident Evil Apocalypse, they are good examples of games, and their tilesets usage is great, from creating auto-aim sniper rifles in a real-time top-down view game, to flawless animations and even morphing powers. Also, add those games to your list if you're a BYOND fan...
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Hm this game is like DF, has multiplayer and tilesets?! I gotta try this out! :o 8)
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I thought Toady might want to know that somebody basically stole the idea, what he does with the information is not my concern.
Well, you can't copyright ideas (regardless of what the abortion the American paten office has turned into is giving the impression of). Also, copying ideas is good because it allows refinement of a concept and constitutes evolutionary pressure that forces all competitors, including the original, to improve.
The thing is, even if a competitor (Dungeon Master, which btw still is a trademarked name) is functionally inferior, if it looks prettier it will still be more popular. And all that has been reading this forum for some time knows that two of the most wanted improvements to DF are presentation (graphics) and user interface.
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It's odd that someone would remake DF with an even worse interface. I can barely select and deselect units it's so laggy.
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I think it's more the BYOND engine than the game itself that makes the lag. All the other games have lag, too. And the latest version of the game is worse than the previous one, along with a usually absent host, so I don't play it much anymore. Also, the combat system is much crappier, and the other players roleplay like idiots. Then they cry when I get annoyed and start killing off their adventurers...that almost makes up for the problems...almost.
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Hm Ive just tried this game...it could be interesting, but its quite slow at the moment, the interface is quite crap just like in DF now, the graphics is ugly [if it supports tiles, the developer should make a proper tileset, because as I see most of these images were made with ms paint in 10 minutes], the gameplay is not really fun either. The idea is good anyways, but the quality of the "product" is quite bad.
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Direct link for anyone who's interested:
http://www.byond.com/games/Ginseng/DungeonMaster
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The interface in this Dungeon Master is much much worse I think, there's also quite a bit of latency. I can never tell what the hell my units are doing, there's a definite lack of feedback and information functions from what I can tell.
It's neat there's a multiplayer DF-alike out there, though they should do the honorable thing and mention DF. They still have their niche (multiplayer), but this BYOND Dungeon Master thing wouldn't exist if not for DF.
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You'd think they'd at least give a shout out to Dwarf Fortress.
But it doesn't really surprise me, there's a Wesnoth rip-off on BYOND as well.
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You'd think they'd at least give a shout out to Dwarf Fortress.
But it doesn't really surprise me, there's a Wesnoth rip-off on BYOND as well.
Yeah, Ive seen the Wesnoth ripoff also. I think its even using the Wesnoth gfx tiles. ;D
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The interface for Dungeon Master is context based. Clicking or Right-clicking the unit brings up the options. The creator screwed up some parts though, and clicks or rights clicks get switched for certain items. The current version is also very buggy, so it's not so fun. The previous version was a lot better. Still slow though.
I do agree that Dwarf Fortress should be given recognition for many of the ideas. That's what bugs me the most.
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They're ripping off DF AND Wesnoth? Here's hoping they get sued.
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They're ripping off DF AND Wesnoth? Here's hoping they get sued.
As a general rule, game mechanics are not protectable and "ripping off" other games is perfectly legal (although embarassing if it's as blatant as this). Which is good for the game industry, to be honest, or we would have run out of ideas long ago. :)
"Ideas are cheap" is a saying often used to describe this situation.
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The creator of 'Dungeon Master', Ginseng, is apparently still active in the BYOND community, but is working on some other game on the service, Lands of Legend. I tried it out and wasn't impressed, it comes across as a graphical MUD / Rogue-like / Diablo with a bewilderingly obtuse interface. You can still build walls and such, apparently, but it doesn't seem to be the point.
It's really quite sad that the last available version of Dungeon Master was released last year because of this, since it actually offers gameplay that isn't easy to find elsewhere. Apparently it's actually buggier than older versions. Really goes to show how lucky we are that Toady's so commited to DF, when he releases a new version that's got crucial bugs in it it's usually fixed within 48 hours, but if you like Dungeon Master you've been waiting 10 months to have the server not crash every couple hours.
DM isn't really an online Dwarf Fortress, it's really more like a fast-paced Wurm Online that gives you the option of directly controlling multiple units. It dutifully clones a lot of the options that DF gives you, except the vast majority doesn't matter. DM also has some significant failings that make it tedious. There's no real automation for your units, so if you want to cut up and cook 9 fish, you're looking at dozens of double-clicks and a few single-clicks (it's an important distinction, click twice on the fish in inventory and it will be dropped before you choose what to do with it, meaning you can't do anything with it and it just lays there). Path-finding is very weak.
Not having to manually carry every single stone, log, and chunk of ore in Dwarf Fortress, makes up for ANY issues one may have with not having direct control over dwarves. It's certainly made me aware how lucky I am that all I have to do is some tedious job-selection now and then.
The multiplayer is what saves Dungeon Master and makes it, from what I can tell, the only worthwhile game on the entire BYOND network. I fooled around a little with a clumsy little dwarf fort until I was recruited by the cult of Jebus and so my six dwarves ran over hill and dale (occasionally falling down and breaking their legs) with some comrades searching for converts, and invading a goblin colony and killing a bunch of them. We ran off when all the orcs roze up as zombies, then started a new fort to defend from an aggressive and powerful foe. Then the server crashed. I started again about a half hour later when the server became available again, staying solo this time and making a tidy little fort, building up my population to a respectable 8 dwarves and working on raising the skill of my metalcrafter so we could get great weapons and armor. Then it crashed and it still hasn't come back hours later.
About 90% of the active games on BYOND are DBZ and Naruto themed, so I guess it fills a necessary niche for teenagers and otakus, but gameplay-wise it really seems useless without a DM server .. and DungeonMaster actually being stable, which it evidently isn't. There were also some 'murder mystery'-esque games, interesting idea but those already exist elsewhere so I don't see the point even if they do mix things up by being set on spacestations and the like, and the interface of the one I tried was the most obtuse yet.
(edit) I just read that a new guy got the source for D.M. on July 16th and is apparently working to fix the bugs, so that gives me at least some dim hope. I'm certainly not going to ditch DF, but as a change of pace, basically a different game altogether, DM's kind of neat and I hope it gets better.
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Somebody got the source? And I heard Gin was paranoid about releasing it to the public... Either way, that would be great if it got the bugs fixed. The version just before the last one released was the best one, I hope that this person expands off of this one.
Also, Dungeon Master has multiple races. Dwarf Fortress fans need not limit themselves strictly to dwarfs (wtf spell-check doesn't think the word "dwarves" exists...). I pick lizardmen the most, since they need no picks or axes to dig or cut trees, much less cook their food to not get sick eating it, they make excellent bone weapons, and due to their structures using wood specifically, they can grow their own stockpile indefinitely. They're good with poisons, bows, and sneaking, and are the only race with a poison bite, limb regeneration, natural armor class, and the best hand to hand skills. Just wish they had the kobolds' trapping skills.
Essentially, they're simple to play because they're too damn hard to kill, and they're sneaky little bastards that give the kobolds a run for their money in breaking and entering and assassinations. Kind of like each of them is their own Riddick.
It's the races in Dungeon Master that also make the game an interesting, albeit more annoying (and stolen), alternative to Dwarf Fortress.
But it is true that games have no copyright for mechanics. If there was no Rogue, then there would have been no Hack, and thus no Nethack, which would mean no Diablo, and then worse no Diablo 2. Same goes for Goldeneye; were there no Goldeneye, Halo would likely have been in third-person and Half-Life might not exist (Timesplitters surely wouldn't exist at all). So I suppose you can't argue much with stealing the game's mechanics, seeing as how Blizzard never openly acknowledged jacking Nethack mechanics, either (and Blizzard makes money off of this, unlike Ginseng).
So MMad and Stromko I'll pretty much QFT, these people sum it all up.
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Is this a suggestion, or a chat about another game? There are other forums here....one specifically for discussing non-Bay12 games.
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I don't know.... I haven't tried it personally yet, but from desc and screenshots, it looks like an RTS.... not a "full" simulation. DF is a marvel if you know a bit about whats behind... there's tons of semantic data that is already simulated just screaming to be added into gameplay in one way or another. DM seems to lack this depth and potential.
Will my following line be apt?
DM is a game. DF is an alternate reality.
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Is this a suggestion, or a chat about another game? There are other forums here....one specifically for discussing non-Bay12 games.
Lurk moar. Also, no more stupid questions from you.
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DM is a game. DF is an alternate reality.
That's pretty much it.
Also, I'd like it very much if there were more information on using pumps. The wiki doesn't help; maybe Toady should add more on the pump in the manual?
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Is this a suggestion, or a chat about another game? There are other forums here....one specifically for discussing non-Bay12 games.
the suggestion was, if I'm correct, Toady teaming up with Gingseng. So, you have DM's graphics, with DF's kickass gameplay. Or something like that
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Well, Toady doesn't actually have to team up or anything, seeing as how someone else also now has the source. All Toady needs is a look at the source to see how a few aspects were done. On the other hand, DF might be so advanced and complicated that nothing might be applicable because the DM coding might be too simple and require a literal rewrite anyway.
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* Revives dead topic, ITS ALIIIIVVEE!!* On a serious note, i have a good reason for reviving the topic: Ginseng indeed did use some things from Dwarf Fortress, but its mostly original, true, its not on the same level as Dwarf Fortress, but the thing is, its like comparing Jesus with a random Guy and saying "Jesus died for us, but that man didn't do nothing, he sucks!", sure, it's not perfect, but it's been dead update wise for quite some time so you can't expect it to be 100% great, and although i understand many of the hardcore Dwarf Fortress players want blood for a "Rip Off" and i would too, but the fact of the matter is: Does it really matter if it IS a rip off? it's fun, isn't that what counts? some people may not like it, thats fine, but is it really necessary to put it on Bay 12 to give it a verbal thrashing? come on, we're the better part of the internet, we can't lower ourselves to the level of 4Chan. (God forbid)
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* Revives dead topic, ITS ALIIIIVVEE!!* On a serious note, i have a good reason for reviving the topic: Ginseng indeed did use some things from Dwarf Fortress, but its mostly original, true, its not on the same level as Dwarf Fortress, but the thing is, its like comparing Jesus with a random Guy and saying "Jesus died for us, but that man didn't do nothing, he sucks!", sure, it's not perfect, but it's been dead update wise for quite some time so you can't expect it to be 100% great, and although i understand many of the hardcore Dwarf Fortress players want blood for a "Rip Off" and i would too, but the fact of the matter is: Does it really matter if it IS a rip off? it's fun, isn't that what counts? some people may not like it, thats fine, but is it really necessary to put it on Bay 12 to give it a verbal thrashing? come on, we're the better part of the internet, we can't lower ourselves to the level of 4Chan. (God forbid)
Thanks for bumping a six month old thread to chastise us for 'thrashing' a game that no one even said anything particularly inflammatory about. And then comparing us to 4chan. How is this an important reason for bumping it? You even say it hasn't been updated.
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How is this an important reason for bumping it?
Because our flame war levels are getting dangerously low?
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OK here's my two cents. Anyone can make any game they like. Boohoo if they "stole" ideas. There are mountains of dead of the human race over the past several million years and quite a few of them had the same ideas at one time or another. In 2009 it's a lot easier for us to go "HEY LOOK MAN WHAT THE HELL THATS MY IDEA" because people value being paid and respected for their work.
I propose we we ignore the people who don't work hard enough or produce quality work and give our respect and time to those who deserve it (not making any specific judgements here on who.)
I choose to give my time and respect to this game, it's developer and its community. Why? because I mean just look at it! I just looked at the list of suggestions that TheToadyOne keeps up, that is a staggering list of demands that people make on him but he seems to thrive on it and try his hardest to make the best possible game whether in reality it's ultimately doable or not. His love of making games is more than apparent THAT is why I respect him. We can always count on him to change the game and make it better. Those are the people who deserve our time. Most game developers these days drop supporting their games after the most immediate bugs are out because they are businesses and they've already "sold" their product and so no longer feel the need to improve it. Toady makes games because he wants to even more so than just making money. [/rant]
I'll reiterate. This world we live in is imperfection incarnate so I think the best thing that a human can do is pay attention to what is best and ignore the rest if it doesn't suit you rather than sit around whining (not saying who if anyone is) about what is lesser.
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I wonder if marriage is like the original copyright...
"they were mine first, now they can be no one elses."
As for the game.... Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
It pleases me greatly that dwarf fortress has clones coming out that are trying to live up to it. Who knows.. They might even manage to design something worth stealing back... (except multilayer... YUCK!)
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I wonder if marriage is like the original copyright
Naw. That came much later.
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I'm all for stealing game mechanics from other games. Think how sad all the X-Com fans would be if someone said "Nobody else can make an X-Com game! They're just stealing the core mechanics!"
Good designers borrow, great designers steal...that's ideas, not source code. If it's a good idea, TAKE IT. Make it your own, but don't be shy about appropriating it.
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Good designers borrow, great designers steal
Uhh while your not incorrect it is one of those "Unfortunate" things.
The only quote I can think of that is similar I have to take from South Park (I don't really like that show)
"If you cheat and are caught, that makes you a cheater. If you cheat and get away with it. Then you are Swavy"
Designers who steal and get away with it are great.
Designers who steal and get caught are bandwagon.
Dungeon Master simply got caught.
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How is this an important reason for bumping it?
Because our flame war levels are getting dangerously low?
Since i want justice done and Ginsengs reputation not to be: The-dodgy-thief-who-steals-ideas.My reason for reviving it is, Ginseng is probably the most patient and kind man on the planet (Annoyingly so) i doubt he would even consider ripping off Dwarf Fortress shamelessly, also what Neon said. Not really :D. I compared the people involved to 4Chan over the fact SOME(Not everyone) people WERE giving it a verbal thrashing, saying it is a rip-off and the like, but never-the-less, your opinion is your opinion, i'm not going to go ape on you. :)
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What I especially love are things that are given credit for inventing something that has been around for a while.
For example one time I was watching something on the net (it was a comedy) and they said "Power of Friendship" and someone went "They stole that from Yugioh Abridged!!!"
I was like "Wait since when did YGO Abridged invent the fact that the power of friendship is rediculous in concept to hillarious degrees?"
I really need to play Dungeon Master... but apperantly it isn't all that great.
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Oh man, BYOND. I looooved SS13. Interface was just as bad as DF, but... Man, you could do some crazy fun stuff. Fond memories. Lots of fond memories...
I never will forget the traps I made... the firedoor closing right behind him as the entire area filled with an explosive gas...
Or the time I was thrown in prison, and then released only to find out the main hall had no air left...
Or the time we where playing a meteor mode, and managed to set up a bunker in the medbay, trying to survive the meteors... as we ran out of air, and had huge amounts of injured we where trying to save...
Or the time I was knocked out, my ID taken, and welded in a closet. Then the imposter, sporting my ID, went on a killing spree, and I got blamed...
Or the time I blew up the space station...
Or the time someone else blew up part of space station, and I survived, managed to run to the gas mask and air tank before the room completely drained of all the air...
Fun times...
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its like comparing Jesus . . . .
Why are you bringing up a fictional character?
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Try to stay on topic, and be respectful.
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its like comparing Jesus . . . .
Why are you bringing up a fictional character?
excellent harry!
what does this mean?
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Works can be copyrighted
Designs can be patented
But Ideas are free
DM is just someone else's take on the idea behind DF
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Works can be copyrighted
Designs can be patented
But Ideas are free
DM is just someone else's take on the idea behind DF
Exactly, it's fair enough if someone takes the same idea, in all, Dwarf Fortress has taken ideas from other games, and other games took ideas from it. However that does not mean that any of them are bad, just that they saw a great thing and were inspired by it, and thus made a game using the same idea.