Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: nukularpower on April 21, 2012, 08:12:00 pm
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Am I the only one worried that the new minecart physics, while cool, are going to ruin any "fun" that might possibly happen from this release on? Why risk dwarves in wars when you just blow the enemies apart rolling minecarts onto them? Who would care about HFS syndromes when the only things at risk are minecarts, which probably can't get sick? And so on.
The realism is appreciated, but the less blatant game breaking exploits there are, the better, imo - it's not like they are hard to find already, and siege engines are unimpressive enough without minecarts stealing all their thunder.
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I doubt you can set up tracks outside, as rails can only be placed on stone.
I doubt a FB is going to be in the EXACT square to get hit at the EXACT moment the minecraft hits,
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Am I the only one worried that the new minecart physics, while cool, are going to ruin any "fun" that might possibly happen from this release on? Why risk dwarves in wars when you just blow the enemies apart rolling minecarts onto them?
Enemies can dodge minecarts. If you cleverly set up a death corridor with no room to dodge and build a high ramp to accelerate minecarts into the faces of your enemies, and then successfully funnel your enemies through there, then you should be able to deal with your enemies that way. It's not more powerful than magma.Who would care about HFS syndromes when the only things at risk are minecarts, which probably can't get sick?
Somebody has to set up the tracks. Those dwarves will be at risk. Instead of trying to set up an entire track system for every FB you find, you'd be better off deploying them. If you want to put in the extra work to wipe them out without risking your dwarves, you should be allowed to. It would be easier to do with cave ins, though.
The realism is appreciated, but the less blatant game breaking exploits there are, the better, imo - it's not like they are hard to find already, and siege engines are unimpressive enough without minecarts stealing all their thunder.
Seige weapons will be getting an overhaul in the army arc. Additionally, they are quite powerful right now. Just set them up and everything in a line is at risk of damage, the same as with a minecart. But ammo is far quicker to produce, and you don't need to worry about building tracks and setting up methods to generate acceleration.I doubt you can set up tracks outside, as rails can only be placed on stone.
Unless I'm mistaken, this is false. Carved tracks are stone only, but constructed tracks should be viable anywhere.
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Rails can be put on constructed floors, I think, and there's nothing stopping you putting those outside.
Some of the changes sound a bit too gamey to me. Like being able to fly minecarts over gaps perfectly. People seem to love the idea but it seems lame to me. Mine carts becoming an effective weapon of war would be silly in my opinion. But it should be easy enough not to use them in a way you feel is dumb while letting other people have their hilarity.
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I like flying minecarts over gaps because it creates one-way gates. That can help segment a fort if you want.
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Long Hallways filled with Cage Traps already exist.
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Just because one thing is too powerful doesn't mean that everything should be overpowered. That doesn't make any sense.
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Long Hallways filled with Cage Traps already exist.
That's what I was about to point out.
The way the game is currently, if you want a challenge, you have to look for one. Set restrictions on yourself. Embark under difficult circumstances. Set goals, some of which might have time limits. It's not ideal, but such is alpha, and I'd imagine that even a "balanced" version of the game post-initial release (in 30 years or so) would have its limits as far as difficulty goes so people would still go about imposing extra challenges that the game doesn't impose.
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Are you somehow implying that goblin-pin-bowling wont be Fun?
That makes me very, very sad.
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FB are HUGE. Minecarts are not going to do jack shit about them.
Goblins are multiple. You won't be able to "reload" your minecart-cannons fast enough to stop them from coming in.
I mean, come on, look at ballista. A metal ballista arrow can kill anything. Do you use it often? Does it WORK when you try?
A tunnel vision is helpful sometimes, but not in this case, nukularpower. You see one "overpowered" element without looking at all other facts which work against it.
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Hello!
I agree with those who don't see much of a problem there. As far as I can tell, if you don't choose to exploit the mine carts as weapon, they are unlikely to become them. Mine carts are mainly there to transport goods to and from stockpiles and probably excavation and production areas. While the caverns and things below are likely to be connected to the excavation mine cart system, sieges and any surface perils are unlikely to encounter your mine carts unless you explicitly design it so - especially if we are talking about mine carts that have any speed above dwarven walking speed.
I don't see mine carts as a universal issue as opposed, for instance, to the inability of invaders to dig and other movement impediments which make defense relatively easy unless you put explicit limitations on your designs.
Yours,
Deathworks
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If you think that minecarts flying over gaps and landing on rails perfectly is bad, simply don't make gaps .The same is valid for cannons and rapecarts.
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My guess is there's going to need to be an opening in your fortress's defences to even be able to get the deathcart rolling. I may be wrong, though.
That said, I'd imagine it would be a difficult task to even get enemies standing on the track.
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I'm not sure of the max velocities but clowns ARE big, I'm not certain carts would be very effective against them.
It would probably be easy to get the carts to max velocity down there, and weight can be changed, but we aren't certain yet what the max velocity or max weight is. It might be impractical to get a cart heavy enough to significantly injure any but the loose materiel ones. It would make lead useful at least I suppose, but even with lead we don't know the limit to what a cart can carry.
I do see a bit of OPness against sieges though. Three tracks side by side out the fortress gate with pits on each side, and a small tower with some loaded carts lined up, and three dwarves stationed up there pushing the carts down at roughly the same time. I do use ballista, and to great effect. You just need to know when to fire, when to hold, and how to design your gate. I imagine it will be the same with carts, just easier to fire multiple at once without risk of collateral damage.
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Rails can be put on constructed floors, I think, and there's nothing stopping you putting those outside.
You can't put them on constructed floors, but they can go outside.
Will it be possible to deploy tracks on build/smothed surfaces? Will dwarves use Minecarts as a form of public transport?
You can carve them whereever you can detail, and you can place them whereever you can construct floors.
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Rails can be put on constructed floors, I think, and there's nothing stopping you putting those outside.
You can't put them on constructed floors, but they can go outside.
Will it be possible to deploy tracks on build/smothed surfaces? Will dwarves use Minecarts as a form of public transport?
You can carve them whereever you can detail, and you can place them whereever you can construct floors.
That seems to imply you can place them as a type of constructed floor.
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FB are HUGE. Minecarts are not going to do jack shit about them.
One of the devlogs says that the damage will occur according to the mass of the cart and its contents and also speed. We don't actually know how much mass a cart can be loaded down with. There may not even be a limit. Image a cart sized thing with the mass of a mountain hitting something at 120 mph!
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I hope it's possible. But I don't think that if you build your special entrance consisting of rails only, and you OPEN it into your fortress to make invaders to path inside, and you try not to let them inside, and you time the minecarts and their load, and you have a few of those, and... yeah, I don't think that it's a bad idea that it WORKS. It will take a lot more labor than just to dump magma on invaders, which is much more deadly than a few heavy minecarts.
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It will take a lot more labor than just to dump magma on invaders, which is much more deadly than a few heavy minecarts.
I find it very bothersome and time intensive to move usable amounts of magma around, than to use some imagination and have fun creating a minecart system. Especially with the significant production speed up that minecarts bring for normal usage that we haven't seen in a long while.
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Hello!
Thus far, I haven't heard anything about minecarts being triggerable through pressure plates and the like. As far as I understand, minecarts usually stand on an even piece of track until a dwarf or beast of burden pushes it, either pushing it for a certain distance or until it goes downhill. I have not heard anything about launching devices that can be linked to mechanism.
Thus, if you want your fortress defenses to be minecart based, you effectively make them dependent on the goodwill and cooperation of your dwarves. Considering my experiences with the simple act of pulling a lever, I do not see any great potential for success in this - it would probably be more like the goblins kill the entire fortress with the last dwarf sending the minecarts flying into the empty space before the burning fortress...
Yours,
Deathworks
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Thus far, I haven't heard anything about minecarts being triggerable through pressure plates and the like. As far as I understand, minecarts usually stand on an even piece of track until a dwarf or beast of burden pushes it, either pushing it for a certain distance or until it goes downhill. I have not heard anything about launching devices that can be linked to mechanism.
Rollers can be powered by mechanisms, which can of course be disabled via mechanical means. And you can (probably) get a cart to stop on top of a disengaged roller by gently rolling it forward through the roller and bumping into a closed door/floodgate immediately next to it. When you're ready to go, open the door/floodgate, engage the roller, and presto! Automoving cart away!
Some special care might be needed with the gentle rolling to get the cart in place, as well as the timing on opening the door and engaging the roller, but I'm sure that sufficiently tenacious people will be able to make it work. It might not even requite much tenacity.
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You can also use retractable bridges for cart sorting so you could have loaded carts making circuits until you need them and then extend a bridge to change course.
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1. Put mine cart on a ramp, stopped by a bridge.
2. Link bridge to pressure plate.
3. Fun.
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Rails can be put on constructed floors, I think, and there's nothing stopping you putting those outside.
You can't put them on constructed floors, but they can go outside.
Will it be possible to deploy tracks on build/smothed surfaces? Will dwarves use Minecarts as a form of public transport?
You can carve them whereever you can detail, and you can place them whereever you can construct floors.
That seems to imply you can place them as a type of constructed floor.
Perhaps a 'minecart track' is in fact a 'floor with tracks attached'. It's a bit of a shame really, because I was really looking forward to creating this:
(http://exile.patchallel.com/images/amateria14.jpg)
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FB are HUGE. Minecarts are not going to do jack shit about them.
So I just need to make sure to load the previous FB bodies into the mine carts that I use as weapons!
(Which will work great until I use them against the necromancer siege, then I'll suddenly have like 8 zombie FB's rise up against me.)
Seriously though I've sort of got to agree with Deon here. The amount of work required to set up a mine cart death system probably validates it's use. It's no different the bringing magma up from the deaths of the earth to barbecue your enemies, lots of work, but lots of !!FUN!! when you pull it off.
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What's all this about mining carts? Dwarf fortress doesn't have mining carts does it?
*checks the dev log for the first time in a month or so*
HOLY CRAP HAULING IMPROVMENTS OH MY GOD
I remember voting for that even before eternal voting existed. Oh man, hauling has been my biggest pain in DF since I started playing it in version 0.21. Group hugs everyone!
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Group hugs everyone!
*waves knife*
Don't come closer! Do not come any closer! I'm warning you!
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"Too good"? What the hell else would I use minecarts for?
Okay, maybe I'll set up little outdoor smelters to process their native platinum payloads. Technically, that's two uses, isn't it?
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Platinum payloads?
Mine carts are for holding rocks, silly. Rocks like SLADE.
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My guess is there's going to need to be an opening in your fortress's defences to even be able to get the deathcart rolling. I may be wrong, though.
That said, I'd imagine it would be a difficult task to even get enemies standing on the track.
You can issolate your mine cart loading station from the rest of the track with either a cliff, since mine carts will continue rolling on a track when they land (a roller or ramp on the land site may be necessary), or a pond, since mine carts can go under water.
I'd be no harder to get enemies to stand on the track than getting them to stand on a trap, though mine carts should work against trap-avoid creatures.
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You can issolate your mine cart loading station from the rest of the track with either a cliff, since mine carts will continue rolling on a track when they land (a roller or ramp on the land site may be necessary), or a pond, since mine carts can go under water.
I'd be no harder to get enemies to stand on the track than getting them to stand on a trap, though mine carts should work against trap-avoid creatures.
Since the cart can land and keep going, I could see something like in Indiana Jones where the boulder rolls down from above. Have your carts shoot out from one z level above the rear of the main entrance corridor. If its only one tile wide they might not even be able to dodge.
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Yep, though you'd need to send carts through water if you want to protect against flying creatures.
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A minecart cannon would be a useful weapon against Titans.
Plus everything described here:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/matthaywood/main/Warwagons.htm
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There are several things that can make minecarts stupidly effective weapons.
1 - How much weight can they hold inside and is it infinite and loaded cargo increases potential damage.
2 - Can we set up tracks to cause minecarts to gain speed indefinitely.
3 - Can we use levers to direct wagons.
If 1 is true then Minecart gauss cannons are possible.
If 2 is true Minecart gauss cannons are possible.
If all 3 are true then it will be glorious to watch as the unstoppable force turns clowns into clouds of gibs at the switch of a lever.
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Who would care about HFS syndromes when the only things at risk are minecarts, which probably can't get sick?
Pff, you forget that wagons were implemented as creatures. I look forward to blind, vomiting minecarts with bruised wheels trundling into my hospital for some much needed rest and recuperation.
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There are several things that can make minecarts stupidly effective weapons.
1 - How much weight can they hold inside and is it infinite and loaded cargo increases potential damage.
2 - Can we set up tracks to cause minecarts to gain speed indefinitely.
3 - Can we use levers to direct wagons.
If 1 is true then Minecart gauss cannons are possible.
If 2 is true Minecart gauss cannons are possible.
If all 3 are true then it will be glorious to watch as the unstoppable force turns clowns into clouds of gibs at the switch of a lever.
Toady already mentioend that there is a terminal velocity. There is probably also a maximum volume, but maximum weight probably not. It will probably just behave as it does for enormous things: goes very slowly when a dwarf is pushing it.
Regardless, I imagine if you can pack a FB corpse into a minecart then send it down say 30 z-levels, you will destroy any foe that doesn't dodge out of the way. Just make your opening into the fort 1-tile wide down a long hallway and you're mostly set.
And to whoever mentioned needing to have the fort open for this to work, that's not necessarily so. Just construct a valley leading to your fort, hope that enemies path down it, then launch minecarts over walls and into the valley.