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[Oran Legendstone]

Since animal people and what not can join your fort now, what if you could educate/civilize the wild animal people/gorlaks/trogs you catch in your cage traps, and perhaps have them join the fort or head out into the world to make history. Not quite sure how this would work but I think it could be an interesting idea an certainly a better option for when you don't want to have your dwarves using up their time freeing them or using them as punching bags (despite them being very good punching bags)

I was also wondering why Troglodytes can't join fortresses or be played in adventure mode, and if this can be changed with editing.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Troglodytes have [SLOW_LEARNER] in the raws. Remove that, and see what happens. I'm not sure if gorlaks are playable - I think so, though - and they don't have [SLOW_LEARNER], so that might be it.

Also, they're not tamable because they're intelligent enough to hate you, but not intelligent enough to stop hating. Though gorlaks, I suppose, and the other not.[SLOW_LEARNER].s could possibly become allies with your fortress.

[Oran Legendstone]

Troglodytes have [SLOW_LEARNER] in the raws. Remove that, and see what happens. I'm not sure if gorlaks are playable - I think so, though - and they don't have [SLOW_LEARNER], so that might be it.

Also, they're not tamable because they're intelligent enough to hate you, but not intelligent enough to stop hating. Though gorlaks, I suppose, and the other not.[SLOW_LEARNER].s could possibly become allies with your fortress.

I didn't do to much testing but I took that out as well as [LARGE_PREDATOR] and added [LOCAL_POPS_CONTROLLABLE] and [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] since gorlaks and plump helmet men both have that an are playable, and it worked, thanks

I'm not quite suggesting taming as much as dwarves having more of a use for the teaching skill an kind of maybe teaching wild animal people about fortress life. Idk, I may be phrasing it weird, but mostly just wanting a way to integrate all these animal people and trogs in these cage traps into my fortress so they have a better use.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

So not pets, but sort of like visitors/long term residents? Sounds good!

[FantasticDorf]

This may be of use to you.

Reseeding the world and Dwarven Heritage & Titans

I already made a thread along the lines of this topic, but i like yours better (I had little experience with mine) with being relevant and down to earth.

Troglodytes have [SLOW_LEARNER] in the raws. Remove that, and see what happens. I'm not sure if gorlaks are playable - I think so, though - and they don't have [SLOW_LEARNER], so that might be it.

Also, they're not tamable because they're intelligent enough to hate you, but not intelligent enough to stop hating. Though gorlaks, I suppose, and the other not.[SLOW_LEARNER].s could possibly become allies with your fortress.

I didn't do to much testing but I took that out as well as [LARGE_PREDATOR] and added [LOCAL_POPS_CONTROLLABLE] and [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] since gorlaks and plump helmet men both have that an are playable, and it worked, thanks

I'm not quite suggesting taming as much as dwarves having more of a use for the teaching skill an kind of maybe teaching wild animal people about fortress life. Idk, I may be phrasing it weird, but mostly just wanting a way to integrate all these animal people and trogs in these cage traps into my fortress so they have a better use.

Given that now we actually have a tavern (hospitality encouragement) and a library (that contains dwarven beliefs and art etc as well as scholars that impart teaching skills) it seems more feasible to be done with the systems in place.

Also its worth mentioning, goblins when activated as a playable race in the raws, can order domesticated trolls on embark (trolls have a [slow learner] tag) and use them for livestock (shearing etc) despite the inclination that they are intelligent enough to be monogamous and gain skills like a civilized being. Goblins achieve this because they encourage and endorse slavery ethics, as opposed to most other races, therefore its all open season for subjugation of 'lesser' races, though not to say that if dwarves could achieve a mutually accepted relationship, having them on board as dwarf assignable 'work animals' but subject to the same humane rights and privileges as dwarves (a claimed room and booze/prepared food + burrow access/assignability) should be viable especially given trog and troll strength for a 2 man militia/dedicated hauling team.

So Trolls, troglodytes and other slow learning ilk have their place in the world and but that's not to say there are not lots of other sentient animal people out there to go under your re-education program suggestions.

[GoblinCookie]

Troglodytes have [SLOW_LEARNER] in the raws. Remove that, and see what happens. I'm not sure if gorlaks are playable - I think so, though - and they don't have [SLOW_LEARNER], so that might be it.

Also, they're not tamable because they're intelligent enough to hate you, but not intelligent enough to stop hating. Though gorlaks, I suppose, and the other not.[SLOW_LEARNER].s could possibly become allies with your fortress.

[SLOW_LEARNER] does nothing but halve skill learning rate.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Then what's the difference between gorlaks and troglodytes?

[FantasticDorf]

Then what's the difference between gorlaks and troglodytes?

Gorlaks are physically weak, in opposition to troglodytes, which are more dangerous, gorlaks are sentient and can be adventurers/tavern visitors.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

But what makes gorlaks sentient when troglodytes are not?

Edit: It's [CAN_SPEAK]!

[PatrikLundell]

Necro and some thought of my own, rather than starting a new thread:

- Animal people, gorlaks, and plump helmet men can be member of civilizations, but can also appear in the wild as "wild people".
- Gremlins are unique in that they're intelligent, but can be tamed and join your fortress, but still need constant retraining and you can't make clothes for them (and you can butcher and geld your citizens. They also aren't available for training after a fortress reclaim, so you'd probably end up with feral citizens). The UI doesn't allow you to assign professions to gremlins, but it works under the hood, so you can do it with Dwarf Therapist (where you can see their preferences, etc. as well).
- Ogres, trogs, trolls, etc. are slow learners that can be enslaved by goblins (although I've never encountered a goblin enslaved trog...).
- Plump helmet men are mute, by the way, so I believe the dividing line is the slow learner trait. Trogs are sapient, and thus cannot be butchered. Possibly, slow learners are unable to pick up the finer points of civilization (whatever those happen to be), but are still smart enough to understand the pain of a whip. If goblins keep their slaves in pens they don't have the problem with them smashing the furniture in the "civilized" goblin part of the dark fortress (and I wouldn't hold it for impossible that furniture smashing urges can be controlled the same way lever pulling urges can).

I'd like gremlins, the wild animal peoples group, and slow learners to fall into a common frame work with regards to fortress and civilization interaction, something along these lines:
- All sapient wild creatures caught in cages (and future versions thereof) ought to provide the victim with two options (plus "do nothing"):
  - Request release: The trap is built at a location from which the map edge is reachable, a "release from cage" order is given, and the victim wanders off peacefully (you can of course attack it if you're the backstabbing kind). Escorting to the edge would be better, but probably more work to implement. It can be implemented even easier if you can just order the release, without building the cage first, but some creatures have irresistible destructive urges...
  - Request visitor status: If granted, an order for the release of the victim is generated immediately, and the victim becomes a regular visitor who can then request upgrades to resident and then citizen status. If you elect to reject the request you can either grant release instead, or deny release altogether.

The options above are the ones theoretically available, but a member of a hostile animal people tribe wouldn't request anything (they're at war, and won't leave willingly), while slow learner individuals (probably the same state for the whole band, of a group) are either "at war" and won't request anything, or be "neutral" and request release, but not visitor status. It would be interesting if there was a small chance for a visitor request even from them, though...(provided any destructive urges can be kept in check). Hm, "The Cyclops Ubost the Bloody Cavern has come,..., to visit your library".

Also note that release might be problematic for cavern dwellers, since it's a common practice to block cavern access, with the cage traps they were initially caught in being the backup in case the drawbridges are down. Allowing them to leave above ground and then magically teleport back to the underground population as they leave the map might solve that, otherwise you might create exiled lonely miserable above ground individuals roaming the world... The same issue is present with cavern dwelling captives who have been granted visitor status.

In the same vein, I wouldn't mind having the option to expel captive enemies (after stripping them of their gear), in particular the nuisance kind (kobolds and snatchers, maybe even necromancers). This would be problematic with hostile animal people, though, since they currently seem to live in the cavern on embark, but if hostile animal people tribes would come and go like other "animals" expulsion would make more sense. It might also be possible to solve if the victim would be allowed to refuse.

I wouldn't mind if "wild people" could occasionally visit without being caught by traps by being tagged as friendly, and thus just walk right in, provided there is an open path.

[FantasticDorf]

Im partially thankful for the new necro, it saves me effort doing it myself. My own tests have shown that troggs can be bred via cages or contained release periods (restraints should work too) for babies that will follow group mentality and make a beeline to get out of the fortress into the caverns hopefully restoring the resident embark populations.

The non-hostility of nearly all slow learners in the caverns is a known thing because it can be observed that since the new 40. version they have the intelligence in that they require a REASON to be hostile. Even blind cave ogres do not aggro on dwarves at all, so long as none of my dwarves become enraged around them and strike out. I could have fields of troglodytes, ogres and maneras running around with flower-braids and frilly dresses running through the forest clearings

Steps to reproduce this in the current version (40.06) - Dig to caverns, encounter troggs, capture all the troggs or a substantial number, tie them up on restraints in as large as room as you need. Place one trogg in the middle with a mechanism release. Get a highly skilled militasquaddie over and release with orders to bash its skull in. Watch as surrouding troggs develop fears of dwarves and preferably pit them so they can move on and skittishly go away.

Take this for instance, trolls will only become violently hostile to you if you actively kill one in retaliation for smashing a workshop/being obstructive. This also gives your dwarves a greenlight to be hostile to wild trolls (due to mandated neutral killing ethics) as a rule of thumb.

I will establish new tests. If i find time in my dwarven fort i will establish a troll deterrant using the same method as above, since workshops are crowded places, if a troll is too scared of people they will not be able to smash anything at all making the problem substantially easier to deal with.

In response patrik, if you reconfigure your entity raw files to make goblins playable, then configure and add [PET] or [PET_EXOTIC] plus other tweaks to every evil creature you deem relevant (child stages for stranglers for instance) you can have the whole shamboodle in fortress mode for your pleasure without the dwarves getting in on any of the action and exclusive trading pet-trades & goods with goblin animal trainers (beak dogs are actually just giant crundles essentially minus the horns).

> Intelligent beings with pet can also take up tavern rooms and petition like gremlins (if you modify in a rudimentary site or extended noble system for goblins to facilitate goblins - Keep in mind that when i tried custom mayor or druid profession for goblins the game crashed on world gen consistently), slow learners however do not, but can be burrowed into segregated living quarters, ogres (plains ogres may i add) also make good tavern-keepers because they are slow in passive movement and don't over-serve drink as a result leading to alcohol poisoning for your thirsty (not literally) gobbos & guests (literally dying of thirst usually) becoming less of a problem.

> Goblin bar-brawl fights with previously mentioned ogre tavern keepers are usually quick or fortress ending stuff of legend. Get Shreked. Drag whatever is left to the kitchens.

> Getting evil creatures to petition to join as residents, enters them into the fold as far as migration is concerned (Premium ale at the devilfire ogre inn adjacent to dark gnome breweries), in addition to passive baby-snatching antics on extended length worlds meaning additional multi-race ghettos are a option. (considering you dont mind melting some gobbos that breed like rabbits given that immortality makes their lives worthless when you get to a point if constant sieges and bar-brawls don't even that out)

> for additional evil points, set dark gnomes to common domestic, embark with 50 or so, skip to a goblin adventurer, find settlement, spike drinks with gnomeblight. Cackle menacingly before the ogre barman caves your skull in and throws your lifeless corpse across the room to a rowdy bunch of goblins who will probably mutilate you.

I've been playing around with goblins for the last week, tweaking them here and there to make them playable & balanced but keeping the ground rules that makes them distinct. (but that's a little off topic, i apolgise, i realise i may have derailed a little bit.)

[Salmeuk]

-snip-

Wait, so are you saying that it's possible to mentally condition less intelligent species to be fearful of dwarves?

I have a few questions, because holy balls that's amazing! Is this true only for those exposed to the violence, or does this fear apply to new troll / trog spawns? Can you condition a trog to be afraid of a troll?

That was one of the best science posts I've read in some time, I suggest you post it to the general discussion or perhaps dwarf mode section in a new topic.

[FantasticDorf]

-snip-

Wait, so are you saying that it's possible to mentally condition less intelligent species to be fearful of dwarves?

I have a few questions, because holy balls that's amazing! Is this true only for those exposed to the violence, or does this fear apply to new troll / trog spawns? Can you condition a trog to be afraid of a troll?

That was one of the best science posts I've read in some time, I suggest you post it to the general discussion or perhaps dwarf mode section in a new topic.

As far as my observations are on a 5 year old total world (I believe this to be a important factor due to lack of hostilities) fearfulness spreads into newly generated slow-beings based on those who leave the map. There are break-away violent troggs but i guess if you observed them in dwarf therapist you might be able to get to the root of behavioural problems, but for the most part they are extremely timid when processed in this way.

Groups are important, someone needs to witness the violence for the fear to set in. Dead troggs tell no tales.