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Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: callisto8413 on September 09, 2013, 07:21:46 pm

Title: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 09, 2013, 07:21:46 pm
I was just wondering.  Anybody ever just design a surface city?  With walls, pastures, farm land, buildings and use the lower levels just as...well, mines?   
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Greiger on September 09, 2013, 08:46:11 pm
Some have.  Hell, I even proposed such a challenge game during the last days of 2D (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=15318.msg142716#msg142716) when we learned of all the cool things we'd be able to do with constructions (then called rewalling)

I never got around to doing the challenge myself, but I'm certain I've heard of other people doing similar things.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Scruffy on September 10, 2013, 06:33:33 am
I have not really made any cities but I have made above ground fortresses on multiple occasions. Usually just something like a 3-4 block wide multilevel walls with small storerooms and guardshouses and a bigger central fort.
Building huge towers is fun (though you have to be careful with the 15z build limit) but building big sky fortresses is frustrating because those damn dorfs can't be assigned to build larger areas of floors/walls without caving something in. And since constructed floors don't stop caveins it can mean that you will end up with a really deep hole and other caveins. (For example when the dorfs manage to cave in a small piece of floor on the peak of the tower and punch a hole in 18zlevels of constructed floors until it finally reaches solid ground and lands on the outpost liason.)
Also, building large above ground buildings take alot of rock/blocks and if you want them to be the same color you will have to dig loads of stone like when building a megaproject.

Having to construct floors takes surprisingly large amounts of blocks and time. For example, remember those standard 11x11 storerooms we all dig underground? 121 floors and 48 walls(or stairs or floors for walls). Yep, one 11x11 room (13x13 with walls) takes 169 blocks and 169 masonry jobs and those damn buggers need you to order them to construct it in smaller segments. Then start building a 10z building with 4 such rooms in each floor and extra corridors between each room. Tedius but rewarding.

I suppose that proper towns or cities would be easier and more fun to construct. Less levels and more separate buildings. I have to try it
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Apani on September 10, 2013, 07:29:43 am
I rather build realistic, sober medieval-looking buildings. If you have a look in my album in my signature, you can see what kind of buildings I like to make. It's very easy to build them, in fact most of those buildings were quickly constructed at the start of the embark (and then abandoned...)
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Crinkles on September 10, 2013, 07:38:08 am
If you're going to build a surface city, I still recommend building storehouses and such underground. It's not like humans don't have cellars! And you will probably want a dedicated quarry somewhere.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Telgin on September 10, 2013, 07:51:03 am
The last two forts I made were above ground, and I actually prefer it that way.  It's pretty fun, but has two major drawbacks: it takes a lot more time to build anything, and it's a lot less secure.  In particular, I have tremendous problems with kids getting kidnapped even with a moat to keep thieves out.  They're just stupid and wander outside too much.

I have dedicated quarries and an underground cellar for food and drink storage, but everything else is above ground.  The homes I usually build in an apartment like fashion of five or so strung together and sharing walls, and will stack them on top of each other 2-3 z-levels to make better use of space.  Other buildings are usually just placed wherever I can find space, though I try to keep the dining hall close to the homes.  Workshops usually end up pretty messily placed wherever I have room.

That's the biggest challenge: with only 1 real z-level to work with, you can quickly build yourself into a corner without space to expand like you want.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Apani on September 10, 2013, 08:21:49 am
On my last embark I was attacked by a swarm of Buzzards and Gnolls. No choice but to dig a shelter. I usually play Kobold Mod, so I could actually build an above ground town with another above ground town in an underground artificial cave below. I'd just have to make it look natural.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: dwarfhoplite on September 10, 2013, 10:14:40 am
I've tried this several times. The problem is that you can't build houses fast enough for migrants. At 200 population I usually have houses for some 30 or fewer dwarfs. The process of building houses is just frustratingly slow and stupid.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Apani on September 10, 2013, 10:25:58 am
It should be like in minecraft, where each block is placed instanty. Digging to building speed ratio is ridicolous. And let's not talk about REMOVING constructions. What are your houses like, anyway?
Here is what condom/inn flats could be like:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: BigD145 on September 10, 2013, 11:43:19 am
Quote from: Crinkles on September 10, 2013, 07:38:08 am
If you're going to build a surface city, I still recommend building storehouses and such underground. It's not like humans don't have cellars! And you will probably want a dedicated quarry somewhere.

I've done single homes above ground and multistory apartments with basements for personal food/drink storage. It does take awhile to build even with small 4x4 interiors. I do include stairwells for multistory buildings, compete with doors and/or hatches so I can abuse burrows and locking hatches in emergencies. Having a personal cellar makes seiges more bearable. You can always dig an escape tunnel. If in dirt they can farm for themselves in their own basement.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Keldane on September 11, 2013, 02:18:55 am
The quote in my signature actually stems from a challenge dedicated to building an above ground settlement with the twist that industries are 'owned' by nobles, and each noble may only own a single industry. As a general rule, you need someone for the crop farming industry (planting, harvesting, brewing, plant processing) and someone for the logging industry (cutting down trees, carpentry, wood burning, wood crafting) right off the bat. It's up to you how you divide and categorize the industries, and that's usually how I do it. The challenge also includes rules like 1z depth for basements, and they may only have a footprint the size of the building above them. If you've already built a successful above-ground fortress, I'd recommend clicking the link (the quote's from the first post in the thread) and giving the rules a look over.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 11, 2013, 08:45:12 pm
Quote from: dwarfhoplite on September 10, 2013, 10:14:40 am
I've tried this several times. The problem is that you can't build houses fast enough for migrants. At 200 population I usually have houses for some 30 or fewer dwarfs. The process of building houses is just frustratingly slow and stupid.

Yes, finding that out.  I have designed a Dwarf Fortress in which I wanted to have three classes.  Those who live on the surface - farmers, woodworkers, animal trainers, so on - which are Surface Dwellers.  Than those I call the Stone Class - think middle class folks such as miners, metal smiths, gem cutters - anybody who deals with stone, metal, or highly skilled artists.  They live in the fortress, with bedrooms and a dining room, in which I try to assign each a table and a cabinet. Then the Administrators, who ALL have large apartments - bedroom, private dining room, and office - live deeper down.   

It is not going well.  The outside buildings are barely finished by the next wave of Dwarfs - many still are missing walls and all are filled, wall to wall (or empty space), with beds.  The roofs are put up faster than the walls in some cases!  There is one small outside diner.  A few of the lower class were allowed to have beds inside - in the pig pen.  HEY!  Those pigs are valuable!  They should be happy to be roomies with such wealth!  :P

The Lower Class workshops are outside and open to the rain and snow.  I would put roofs over them but, to be honest, it would take up more time and labor than I am willing to give.  All the important workshops (those manned by the Middle Class) are inside anyway.

The problem is there is so many projects (the need to put up those buildings) that many other projects are just not getting done.  Some of my Administrators are still waiting to have their rooms engraved and I don't have enough tables for the Middle Class dining area!   Tsk, tsk!   Also, I am trying to build protective walls - decided to kill all my large livestock and keep the sheep, chickens, and pigs (the last two moved into the Fortress) - which as you can guess it going SLOWLY.  On the other hand the fields, both inside and outside, are well attended - we must have six farmers!  And when our rangers are not training they are hunting deer, wolves, and so on.  We have lots of food and drink but every job, every project, is never fast enough.   :( 

My great hall has been dug out but there is nobody to work on it!  Oh the horror!   :'(

In other words....kind of realistic.  Had three Dwarfs go insane and die because I just did not have the material they needed when they slipped into those strange moods.  If this was a normal Fortress I would be getting bored by now!   :D
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Telgin on September 11, 2013, 11:16:33 pm
Slowing down immigration is a must.  I've embarked with two skilled carpenters and a modded in sawmill that produces 4 wood planks (blocks) per log, and even with that it takes forever to get housing for just the starting 7 set up.  I started with a pop cap of 20 and used DFHack to enforce that immediately upon starting the game, even if that might not be strictly necessary.  I then gradually raised the limit by 10-15 as I prepared housing ahead of time.

The good news with .34 compared to .31 at least is that most immigrants are married, so you usually don't have to build quite as many houses as in previous versions.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: sackhead on September 12, 2013, 12:59:57 am
clay is usefull as it is unlimited
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 07:56:11 am
Quote from: Telgin on September 11, 2013, 11:16:33 pm
The good news with .34 compared to .31 at least is that most immigrants are married, so you usually don't have to build quite as many houses as in previous versions.

That's bad news.  It means people who are Middle Class are living with Lower Class wives and husbands.  :D
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Sonlirain on September 12, 2013, 09:23:34 am
I remember building a roman legionaire camp fort (wooden walls wooden structures and wooden gates).
Storerooms weren't really that much of a problem because i made basements in the soil.

All in all making a hill dwarf fort is a fun experience.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 10:06:41 am
Things are going..slowly.  Had to buy wood from the last few caravans as nobody seems to want to chop down the trees.  Also had to switch on some labors in a few of the Surface Dwellers.  Needed more wood burners, as the demand for ash, charcoal, and such has sky rocketed.   :-\

I wanted more miners so decided to turn a few wax workers and hunters into miners by switching off some labors and turning on mining.  I also hope this will turn a few of the lower class wives and husbands into well mannered wives and husbands for the Stone Class.  I have a ton of beds in storage, so it will be easy to put them in the already dug bedrooms.  Should open some outside bedrooms for the next wave of smelly peasants also!  :P

Something happened and now we have a Mayor and a Captain of the Guard.  As the last Sheriff is also my Militia Commander, I turned his wife into the Captain of the Guard, so now they have TWO high class apartments between themselves and his wife, who use to be lower class, is now a member of the Upper Crust!   :D

End result - Things still normal, all Dwarfed up. 

But NOT boring!   8)
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: BigD145 on September 12, 2013, 12:01:19 pm
Quote from: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 07:56:11 am
Quote from: Telgin on September 11, 2013, 11:16:33 pm
The good news with .34 compared to .31 at least is that most immigrants are married, so you usually don't have to build quite as many houses as in previous versions.

That's bad news.  It means people who are Middle Class are living with Lower Class wives and husbands.  :D

You could just kill one of them.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 01:15:04 pm
Quote from: BigD145 on September 12, 2013, 12:01:19 pm
Quote from: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 07:56:11 am
Quote from: Telgin on September 11, 2013, 11:16:33 pm
The good news with .34 compared to .31 at least is that most immigrants are married, so you usually don't have to build quite as many houses as in previous versions.

That's bad news.  It means people who are Middle Class are living with Lower Class wives and husbands.  :D

You could just kill one of them.

Too many of them.  Every party seems to be a marriage between a well placed person of wealth and taste and a commoner.  It is almost like they are marrying people they fall in LOVE with!   Can you believe it?   :o  A marriage based on LOVE!  Oh, the horror!  What is this world coming to when a wedding is not planed on society standing!   :'(

I hope to slowly straighten things out.  A lot of the people who go insane, so far, happen to be one of a married couples (not sure if that is somehow related - not married) and this allows me to adjust living and dining assignments.   8)

"So sorry, but your husband, the engineer, is dead.  So sorry for your loss but you ARE a farmer.  You are being moved from you nice, warm apartment with the smooth walls and cabinet to this small hut.  With three other couples.  You can eat in the diner if one of the four tables are open.  Or out here in the muddy fields.  What?  Oh, the missing wall?  It's on the job list.  Enjoy!" 

I happen to have picked a region with a heavy to medium rain fall also.  So a lot of Dwarfs are getting wet.  Everything is getting wet.  But trees seem to grow back REALLY fast.  Which is good.   :D

I hope, by assigning the skilled and middle class to dining areas away from the others to get the single Dwarfs to marry within their class and I HOPE that future offspring will also marry according to their status.  I hope.  Not sure how marriage works...I know it is linked to friendship.   :-\
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Apani on September 12, 2013, 02:46:24 pm
Would you like to post some screenshots, maybe using stonesense?
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 02:50:51 pm
Quote from: Apani on September 12, 2013, 02:46:24 pm
Would you like to post some screenshots, maybe using stonesense?

Sure.  But I don't feel Stonesense is showing how depressing the outside is.  The half-built houses that look like lean tos, the cold winters with the snow on the ground, the work shops pumping smoke into the air as they create fuel for the smiths, the cramped diner, the farmer's fields....must be a sight when a Dwarf first shows up and gets assigned a bed.  The half built walls and small herd of sheep.  :)
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 03:19:11 pm
Of course, first I give you the stats.   

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now for the first thing a approaching new citizen or trader or invader would see...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The structure with the mostly wooden roof is the diner.  Four tables and four chairs.  Dirt floor.  Serve yourself!
Each house, if I could use that word, is totally filled, from wall to wall, with beds.
The tall grass and bushes makes it hard to see the fields.  The workshops are clustered around the pool of water.
The windmill has yet to be linked to the millstones.  The gears and everything else have been set up - just waiting for the millstones!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Turned the angle so you could see the sheep.  Pigs and chickens have been moved inside.  The well is a popular spot - I made it after I noticed that winter did FREEZE  everything.    You will notice beds in the pig pen for those who don't have outside housing.

Above this level is three levels of storage.

Now we go deeper into the Fortress.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bedrooms, most smoothed out with cabinets.  Dining room, with each table assigned to a individual or couple, with a new dining area being set up.  A few workshops, but not too many on this floor.  Wanted to keep it nice and peaceful.

Deeper still we get to the offices of those who think and plan and decide the future of the Fortress!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
All of the apartments, in the end, will be smoothed out and engraved.  A few cages with animals have been placed in a few of the rooms.  More apartments will be dug out before I start getting the REAL nobles, of course.

I have not bothered to show the barracks, the jail, the hospital, the work on the grand hall, the mining network...you have all seen those before!
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Apani on September 12, 2013, 03:36:29 pm
My Stonesense is unintentionally modded to have no bushes... ::) (I'll have to work on that one)
Anyway, that makes a great slums feeling. ;)
My troubleshooting: If a builder gets bugged and suspends the job, your best bet is to delete the issued wall and to place it back rather than just unsuspending. Also, I think you should have at least three builders, if not more.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 04:02:11 pm
Quote from: Apani on September 12, 2013, 03:36:29 pm
My Stonesense is unintentionally modded to have no bushes... ::) (I'll have to work on that one)
Anyway, that makes a great slums feeling. ;)
My troubleshooting: If a builder gets bugged and suspends the job, your best bet is to delete the issued wall and to place it back rather than just unsuspending. Also, I think you should have at least three builders, if not more.

Thanks.  I tired that a couple of times and I think I just have too many jobs waiting for them.

How do I increase the builders?  It's not a profession.  Masonry?
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Lost in Nowhere on September 12, 2013, 04:33:46 pm
Quote from: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 04:02:11 pm
Quote from: Apani on September 12, 2013, 03:36:29 pm
My Stonesense is unintentionally modded to have no bushes... ::) (I'll have to work on that one)
Anyway, that makes a great slums feeling. ;)
My troubleshooting: If a builder gets bugged and suspends the job, your best bet is to delete the issued wall and to place it back rather than just unsuspending. Also, I think you should have at least three builders, if not more.

Thanks.  I tired that a couple of times and I think I just have too many jobs waiting for them.

How do I increase the builders?  It's not a profession.  Masonry?
The job for building constructions is based on the material involved - carpentry for wood, masonry for stone, etc.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 05:00:37 pm
I see, so I need more stoneworkers.   Well, just had a new wave of Dwarfs, so it should be easy to pick a few out of the lower class.   ???

Just have to pick a few from the married couples who already have scum...I mean wives and husbands who would like to be uplifted into high society.   :D
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 12, 2013, 06:02:50 pm
Carried out a combination of redoing the wall and ceiling lay outs and giving some people some masonry and stone working skills (following your guys advice).  The walls have gone up much faster.  Now just need a few more doors.  And maybe will be able to house much of the surface populace on the surface!  than can get serious about the protective walls, the grand hall, and a few other projects.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Mr Space Cat on September 12, 2013, 11:46:44 pm
When building outdoor constructs I generally keep 5 or so masons on full-time duty in the mason workshops, which are set to accept novice masons or higher. All mason shops have rock blocks set to be made repeatedly.

All the useless wood burner and cheesemaker migrants who would be standing around (who I usually custom-name as haulers for a profession) get enlisted as dabbling masons to haul blocks around and build crap, while the actual good masons keep the block stocks supplied. Results in having floods of 30 to 40 dorfs at once scrabbling to put up a wall or build a floor, with no lack of building material (usually).

Building is going to take time, sure, but the more dorfs you have the more potential dorfpower you have to build with, and that can speed up the process considerably.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 13, 2013, 10:38:22 am
And now I have trapped the vampire and made him into my UNDEAD book keeper! 

BUWAHAHAHAHAH!

And I thought I was being very smart but somebody pointed out once his cloths rot he will go insane.  Sad really.  :(
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Apani on September 13, 2013, 10:49:42 am
Just make some clothing sets and take them to his enclosure; you could, say, drop them from above. Also, you could add some nice furniture to look at, what about windows? Nothing better than sunlinght for the undead. You could have him bound to a very nice chain, too.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 13, 2013, 12:34:10 pm
Quote from: Apani on September 13, 2013, 10:49:42 am
Just make some clothing sets and take them to his enclosure; you could, say, drop them from above. Also, you could add some nice furniture to look at, what about windows? Nothing better than sunlinght for the undead. You could have him bound to a very nice chain, too.

I walled him up.   :o

Anyway, he has a three room apartment all engraved, with a bed, cabinet, two chairs and two tables, with two doors (third door was replaced by a wall).

So hard to deliver stuff to him...also I figured that if nobody could get to him, besides ghosts, nobody could kill them.  So my Fortress lasts FOREVER!  Or something like that.  If he goes insane I just give his job to the Manger.

If I did dig a hole to dump stuff to him could creatures get in to kill them?  Maybe a floodgate to keep unwanted out of the access tunnel?

We had another wave of people - my Fortress's wealth seems to be making it harder to house people.  Each wave of new citizens is bigger than the last.  My Tourist Mug Industry is doing TOO good a job.  We now have 113 citizens.   

Mind you, they're wonderfully made mugs.  You'll want to collect them all!  Or give them as gifts to your family members!  Remember the best mugs are crafted at Manorfigure  - The Manor of Brilliance!
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: Apani on September 13, 2013, 01:35:59 pm
Undestroyable: Raised Drawbridge, Constructed Walls, artifacts.
Destroyable: anything else.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 13, 2013, 02:54:32 pm
Quote from: Apani on September 13, 2013, 01:35:59 pm
Undestroyable: Raised Drawbridge, Constructed Walls, artifacts.
Destroyable: anything else.

Right.  So I am leaving the vampire alone.    :)

I have now, 131 or something Dwarfs.

Do you think I have enough booze and food?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
;D

Funny, I don't think I have had so much food, even in a Fortress with 200 plus Dwarfs.  I think it is all the hunters, farmers, fishermen in my populace.  Now if I could just get the metal industry to WORK!
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: PDF urist master on September 13, 2013, 04:25:17 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

thanks to liberal usage of cage traps, combination of cave croc, grizzly bear, lion, GCS, kitten and dog farming, as well as massive amounts of elk birds,

this is where i am now. i'm actually trying to sell as much meat as possible because i'm too overstocked.
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 13, 2013, 05:34:51 pm
Quote from: PDF urist master on September 13, 2013, 04:25:17 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

thanks to liberal usage of cage traps, combination of cave croc, grizzly bear, lion, GCS, kitten and dog farming, as well as massive amounts of elk birds,

this is where i am now. i'm actually trying to sell as much meat as possible because i'm too overstocked.

COOL!  How did you get so much to drink?
Title: Re: Surface City....
Post by: callisto8413 on September 15, 2013, 12:15:13 pm
Update using Stonesense.  The outside is getting along.  I hope, once I hit 200, things will settle down and allow me to get on with building the living quarters for all the classes.  Plus some extra bedrooms and houses for surplus people.  Have three barracks now and the Great Hall is almost finished.  The Baroness has calmed down (well, she forgot her last mandate) and now have two vampires on staff.  Been visited by the human diplomat, who was a Law-Giver (not related to MST3K to my knowledge) and a vampire.  Seemed to fit right in.   8)

Outside - working on the south wall and started a house. The first of many I hope to build against that wall.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

North and west walls - the gate has been linked to a lever near the Depot - and the construction of houses and protective roofs for the workshops continues, with only a few slow downs.  Plan to have a west gate and a south gate, all linked to the same lever.  Want to keep pathways open for traders and my own hunters, woodmen, and fishermen.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A large human caravan arrived, with at least three wagons and a dozen yaks piled high with goods.  I even dumped some stuff I do not want on them in the form of a offering.   
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
As you can see the pig pen has even more beds in it.  The pigs are complaining about the smell.  And there seems to be another party at the well.   ::)