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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: simonthedwarf on April 29, 2012, 06:59:32 pm

Title: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on April 29, 2012, 06:59:32 pm
On my embark. I have dug into their little hideout, but they path back to where they started after chasing a little. I got cagetraps on the exits but im struggling to find a way to make them path into it.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Callista on April 29, 2012, 07:01:38 pm
Live bait.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on April 29, 2012, 07:04:01 pm
3 dwarfs out of 7 dead so far
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sphalerite on April 29, 2012, 07:06:49 pm
If they were on your site when you embarked, they will be immune to cage traps.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Lagslayer on April 29, 2012, 07:08:21 pm
If you could devise a way to capture the babies, you'd only have to wait a thousand years for fully grown dragons!

BTW, elf meat is a great aphrodisiac for them. Feed them regularly.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on April 29, 2012, 07:08:43 pm
Quote from: Sphalerite on April 29, 2012, 07:06:49 pm
If they were on your site when you embarked, they will be immune to cage traps.

uh yeah they were, the whole plan with the embark was to catch a breeding pair.

is there any way to circumvent this? they have passed over wooden cage traps a few times, but i just figured this meant that they burned them somehow
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on April 29, 2012, 07:13:27 pm
You'll have to get cunning, and wait till you can set up a more substantial fortress. You can circumvent their immunity to cage traps with a cave-in, or retracting bridge, but I worry they'd be too big for it to retract with them on top.

Set up a little tunnel on the other side of the walls, and carve fortifications into them so they can see through. You'll lose the stoneworker(s) that carves them, but keep a pet dog or something chained up back there behind some green glass windows and make sure they have LOS at all times with more fortifications to reinforce their goal of reaching this dog behind glass windows.

Now, they will attempt to path all the way around, hopefully, and in the process you can drop a long section of floor out from under them with a support linked to a lever, knocking them into cage traps, and hopefully capturing them.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on April 29, 2012, 07:22:55 pm
I've never done this thing with linking supports to levers. Will supports automatically cause the floor above them to fall down when activated? Time for science.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Starver on April 29, 2012, 07:33:40 pm
If the floor above would have caved in without the support, they will cave in when the support is lever-pulled out of existence.

So, you either need to make the floor beneath which you build the support is then disconnected from all other floors/walls above (or at least all other floors/walls above which are not also relying on this support), or else to build a disconnected floor on the layer above (this usually involves a temporary access method in order to build that floor in the first place, which you'd then need to remove).

Does this make sense?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on April 29, 2012, 07:37:20 pm
Danger! Cave-ins could kill the dragons, and you need them caught alive.

Giant cave spider webs on cage traps should work to catch these dragons, and won't hurt them.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Callista on April 29, 2012, 08:28:04 pm
If you're still working with the remnants of your original seven, it would be better just to block up the dragons' cave and wait until you have some dwarfpower to throw at the problem.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on April 29, 2012, 09:10:54 pm
I have thrown 10-30 dwarfs at the problem. When I Start engraving there is going to be some horrific scenes. I think I need to show why I find this a complicated mission:

- normal cage traps dont work (they should, but like sphalerite said if they were there on ur embark like mine they dont work for some reason)
- dragons wont chase enough, but will use their breath insta-roasting any dwarfs

(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9136/asdasdasdu.gif)
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Ross Vernal on April 29, 2012, 09:15:20 pm
Make them equip shields. It tends to help.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sabreur on April 29, 2012, 10:11:09 pm
Quote from: Callista on April 29, 2012, 07:01:38 pm
Live bait.
Quote from: simonthedwarf on April 29, 2012, 07:04:01 pm
3 dwarfs out of 7 dead so far

This cracked me up so much.  :D
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Kofthefens on April 29, 2012, 11:17:14 pm
Save please.

Quote from: Urist Da Vinci on April 29, 2012, 07:37:20 pm
Danger! Cave-ins could kill the dragons, and you need them caught alive.

One z-level won't hurt them, but will stun them
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: nanomage on April 29, 2012, 11:25:04 pm
how about using gcs webs? you could capture a GCS fist and make it we your trapping hallway. Just make sure that dragons have nothing to _burn immediately_ when they go over the webs. I believe they are not smart enough to use their fire to free the way.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on April 30, 2012, 12:06:10 am
how do you get them to chase after something without burning it to a crisp? They dont seem to have a cooldown on their breath attack
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on April 30, 2012, 12:24:19 am
They do, it's just a mere 1-2 turns, which is the blink of an eye to us as palyers.

The best way to prevent the death of the bait would be to train a dwarf in shield use in a danger room, then have them, with their squad innactive but wearing their gear, wander into the room to pick up a sock or whatever, and attract the dragons' attention, but hopefully blocking the dragonfire with their legendary shield user skill. At that point there's a 95% chance they'll run into the room like an idiot and get cornered, a 4% chance they will run back out and not be followed, and a 1% chance they will attract the dragons attention for just long enough to spring whatever trap you lay. Urist Da Vinci has a point about the cave-ins having a good chance to fling the dragons into the walls and kill them, but it's certainly easier to set up than a GCS trap.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on April 30, 2012, 12:28:41 am
Quote from: simonthedwarf on April 30, 2012, 12:06:10 am
how do you get them to chase after something without burning it to a crisp? They dont seem to have a cooldown on their breath attack
If you put a glass window between them and the bait, they might still path to the bait since they don't have a line of effect for the breath.

IIRC dragon breath is still only on the same z-level as the dragon, so a dwarf taunting them from above might be good as bait. Their path to the bait takes them over the webbed traps.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Fenrisson on April 30, 2012, 04:09:25 am
Will a glass window work?

I had the great idea of setting up glass windows with dogs behind 'em at my fortress entrance. The Dogs where standing on a stairwell which led into my fort. In the first greenskin-siege the brought a dozen cavedragons. Those beasts destroyed the windows and ate my dogs just before descending into my fort....

luckily I was able to fend them of since the goblers where tied by my defenses elsewhere.

But still Dragon + glass window = not safe... - it might buy u some time to get out of their breathrange though.       
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Anathema on April 30, 2012, 10:14:35 am
Quote from: Fenrisson on April 30, 2012, 04:09:25 am
In the first greenskin-siege the brought a dozen cavedragons.

Ho-ly crap. I wish I had goblins like yours.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on April 30, 2012, 11:58:51 am
Hide the windows behind fortifications.  You might need to construct the fortification/window setup without breaching the dragon chamber and then seal a sacrificial miner in there to make the breach, or use a bait animal to lure the dragon out of the room while you make the connection.

I believe you need two layers of fortifications in front of the windows, as building destroyers don't need to be directly adjacent (unless fortifications block them?)
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on April 30, 2012, 01:50:18 pm
I think I will have to go for the webs
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Rohain on May 02, 2012, 11:23:07 pm
Won't dragons that have gotten a taste for dwarven flesh and blood be mortal enemies of the fortress for all time?  So even if you did manage to catch them despite their cageimmune, won't they still be dwarven gourmets?  Or has that changed since I last caught one.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: nanomage on May 02, 2012, 11:40:01 pm
Quote from: Rohain on May 02, 2012, 11:23:07 pm
Won't dragons that have gotten a taste for dwarven flesh and blood be mortal enemies of the fortress for all time?  So even if you did manage to catch them despite their cageimmune, won't they still be dwarven gourmets?  Or has that changed since I last caught one.
yeah, that changed with the new taming system
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 02, 2012, 11:45:17 pm
That was changed in the training update.  Because they're wildcaught, they will never be fully tamed.  The main value will probably be in children, which will be slaughtered for (very valuable) parts.  The children will be useless for melee defense until they are 1000 years old (size 6000, only slightly larger than cats, at 5000), but will be a valuable source of prepared meals, bonecrafts, prepared meals, soap, and leather goods.  Young dragons could still be used in dragon fire emplacements, bunkered behind fortifications, with shutters in case of archers, but would overall probably be more valuable dead.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 03, 2012, 12:04:39 am
Actually, after a lot of !!SCIENCE!!, it was concluded that animals actually change size gradually over time, so your baby dragons are getting progressively larger every year. I estimate, with the simple, uneducated guess of an equation ([maximum size] - [size at birth])/[age upon reaching maximum size], or (25,000,000 - 6000)/1000, that a dragon will gain about 24,994 units of volume every year, with a margin of error of not knowing when the game begins/ceases to calculate body mass. By their first birthday, they will be both larger and far, far more effective than your basic war dogs. By their third, they will be bigger than your dwarves, and probably about as effective as a soldier of talented skill. By their tenth, a pack of dragons will be giving just about anything short of a pack of adult dragons a run for their money. They don't gain skill from experience, but they'll be extremely valuable alive as war animals to place in the field ahead of your military. Even should they die in combat, which seems rare if their opening attack is to enthusiastically torch everything around them, including fleshy, oil-rag goblins, momma is still making more. If you let her live...
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Tharwen on May 03, 2012, 02:15:32 am
Why has no-one demanded a save yet?

I'm going to do it.

I demand a save! (Or worldgen parameters)
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 03, 2012, 02:34:19 am
Aren't they not war trainable until they're adults?  Still useful when pastured, but they would be harder to order to the front lines.  Didn't know that about animal growth, though.  That's really interesting.


And why would you ever kill a breeding female dragon?  She's a priceless dragon factory.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Garath on May 03, 2012, 04:27:48 am
or at least dragon egg roasts
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: medikohl on May 03, 2012, 06:00:41 am

At 23 years, a dragon is the size of a giant cheetah.
At 80 years, a dragon is the size of an adolescent Roc.
At 200 years, a dragon is the size of an adult elephant.
At 320 years, a dragon is the size of a Hydra.
At 800 years, a dragon is the size of a Bronze colossus or an adult Roc.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 03, 2012, 06:22:35 am
Quote from: Kofthefens on April 29, 2012, 11:17:14 pm
Quote from: Urist Da Vinci on April 29, 2012, 07:37:20 pm
Danger! Cave-ins could kill the dragons, and you need them caught alive.

One z-level won't hurt them, but will stun them
It will KILL the dragon if the ceiling falls on it.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Lagslayer on May 03, 2012, 07:36:23 am
Dragons are also very heavy. Where small animals like rabbits are all but immune to falling damage, something as massive as a dragon could suffer serious damage, even from a small fall.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 09:39:44 am
The save is for LFR mod (though this does not affect dragons afaik) but if people still want it, sure.

The trick to getting dragons is to gen a long world (1050) and then download legends viewer and find the camps w more than 1 dragon outcast. If you are lucky you will find a hetero couple.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Hylas on May 03, 2012, 10:35:06 am
Hey! A male dragon and his male dragon life partner might not be able to 'biologically' make little dragons, but their love is a real love and they are fully capable of providing hatchlings with a supportive, nurturing environment no matter what you or the Nebraska state legislature thinks.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Naryar on May 03, 2012, 10:39:17 am
You might want to use the dust from a cave-in to knock both dragons unconscious and cage them and breed them. Do not, of course, drop the cave-in ON the dragon.

Quote from: Hylas on May 03, 2012, 10:35:06 am
Hey! A male dragon and his male dragon life partner might not be able to 'biologically' make little dragons, but their love is a real love and they are fully capable of providing hatchlings with a supportive, nurturing environment no matter what you or the Nebraska state legislature thinks.

But we adult dragons don't need a "supportive, nurturing environment" if there are no kids to be made.

If we stay straight, we can outpopulate our natural enemy, the bronze colossus (hydras and rocs are just too vulnerable to dragonfire) and we shall CONQUER THE WORLD !
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 11:50:42 am
Thats my punishment for posting in that thread about gay dwarves, I guess.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 03, 2012, 12:18:55 pm
Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on May 03, 2012, 06:22:35 am
Quote from: Kofthefens on April 29, 2012, 11:17:14 pm
Quote from: Urist Da Vinci on April 29, 2012, 07:37:20 pm
Danger! Cave-ins could kill the dragons, and you need them caught alive.

One z-level won't hurt them, but will stun them
It will KILL the dragon if the ceiling falls on it.

Nonono, you're supposed to drop the floor out from under them. THey'd be on top the collapsing structure, or at least adjacetn to it such taht the dust knocks them down into the cage traps.

Quote from: Sadrice on May 03, 2012, 02:34:19 am
Aren't they not war trainable until they're adults?  Still useful when pastured, but they would be harder to order to the front lines.  Didn't know that about animal growth, though.  That's really interesting.

Actually it's kinda unclear exactly when the hatchlings will be considered breeding and trainable adults, because the dragons don't have a CHILD:x tag, so there's no specified age to which they must live to become an adult. The body size token has no relation with the child token, as far as I'm aware...

If SimontheDwarf captures and breeds them successfully, we'll eventually have our answer.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 12:52:58 pm
I can't capture them - because I dont have access to the floor they are sitting on. The access is hindered by...

The dragons. They burn everything.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 03, 2012, 01:06:31 pm
You should be able to build whatever apparatus you need from your side of the wall, seal it off with a sacrificial peasant-miner on the inside, and then breach the wall connecting it with their room. 

I don't think there's anywhere that's actually truly reliably safe to be during a cave in.  Not even off to the side up above, as so many of my martyred miners can attest.  Have you explored your caverns for GCSs yet?  They're not all that hard to trap, and very useful for more than just dragon catching.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: i2amroy on May 03, 2012, 01:07:54 pm
Quote from: Eric Blank on May 03, 2012, 12:18:55 pm
Actually it's kinda unclear exactly when the hatchlings will be considered breeding and trainable adults, because the dragons don't have a CHILD:x tag, so there's no specified age to which they must live to become an adult. The body size token has no relation with the child token, as far as I'm aware...

If SimontheDwarf captures and breeds them successfully, we'll eventually have our answer.
Checking the LFR raws I see that it hasn't edited dragons, and as such they follow the same rules as vanilla dragons. This means that the answer is actually "never" because baby dragons don't exist or breed ever in vanilla DF. Eggs will be laid, but they will never hatch. If he wants baby dragons then he will need to add the [CHILD:X] token to the dragon entry, and then whatever value he puts in for 'X' will determine when any newborn dragons shift from being children to being trainable adults.

Personally if I was going to do that I would set it to something like 10-20 years if I wanted to be realistic, 1-5 years if I wanted to breed a dragon army, and 50-200 years if I wanted to be cruel.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 03, 2012, 01:31:15 pm
But, they breed in worldgen? Hmm... Damn complex spore-based reproductive system.

Needs immediate ‼SCIENCE‼
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 01:44:25 pm
Would digging upwards onto their floor work?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 03, 2012, 01:46:26 pm
Quote from: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 01:44:25 pm
Would digging upwards onto their floor work?
What are you trying to achieve by digging up?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Gizogin on May 03, 2012, 01:47:18 pm
I really hope you manage to capture the dragons alive.  The potential uses for a breeding pair of semi-tame dragons are immensely fun to think about.

A few things I'd like to contribute:
 - As far as I know, Eric Blank's body-size calculations are correct.  DF takes the creature's sizes as declared in the raws and creates a straight-line progression between them (I'm not entirely sure what it does for creatures with more than two given sizes; I think it just makes a straight line between each size and the next).
 - Dragons lay eggs, so any breeding program must include nest boxes.
 - Using a cave-in to catch dragons in cage traps could work, but there are several things to keep in mind:
    - Anything caught underneath a cave-in is instantly killed.
    - Cave-ins produce a lot of dust, which can fling stuff around and cause a lot of damage.
    - Buildings (likely including cage traps) on top of floors/walls which collapse will deconstruct into their constituent building materials.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 02:10:49 pm
Here's the cage trap drop plan from above, casualties testing it so far: 1 beekeeper. But he died needlessily when I deconstructed the support from below.

    D1   D2
o----------o
oCCCICCCCo

I will channel right in front of the dragons and hope to not get killed, since I only have 10 dwarfs right now I might have to danger room some shield miners to do this. My hope is that when the "I" support is removed by level the dragons will drop down 1 z level and fall into the traps without dying. Getting the floor on top of your head is ofc deadly, but a 1 z level drop can't be that bad.

I'm keeping an eye on the grave yard and so far only 7 dwarves have been put to rest because of dragon taming's many pitfalls. A ghost has just risen though, so that ¤ash¤ might be part of Urist.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Gizogin on May 03, 2012, 02:15:35 pm
I think you'll find that the cage traps will be covered/destroyed by the floor falling on them, unless your trap is actually a ring or two parallel rows of traps around where the floor will fall.  Depending on how the dragons scatter and on their injuries, it's still possible that the dragons will not be captured, though it's probably not likely.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 02:20:17 pm
Lesson:Fortifications do not stop dragon fire. I really wish there was some way to protect the miners as they channel around the dragons.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: buzz killington on May 03, 2012, 02:53:53 pm
You would think the threat of fire would make them dig faster  8)
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Starver on May 03, 2012, 02:54:18 pm
Wooden Training Spear.  As long as the wooden training spear is not on fire, the dwarf holding it is perfectly safe. ;)
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 02:56:10 pm
Anyone know something that blocks the dragon fire attack btw?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 03, 2012, 02:56:38 pm
Shields
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: i2amroy on May 03, 2012, 02:57:15 pm
Quote from: Eric Blank on May 03, 2012, 01:31:15 pm
But, they breed in worldgen? Hmm... Damn complex spore-based reproductive system.
They don't, or at least don't without modding. Every dragon you find in vanilla will be "one of the first of it's kind" and was created out of nothingness in year 1 along with everything else. That's why every dragon you ever encounter is an adult, because they were all created as adults.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 03, 2012, 03:51:09 pm
Windows behind fortifications.

Try luring them in with a dog behind windows at least 2 tiles behind fortifications.


Quote from: i2amroy on May 03, 2012, 02:57:15 pm
Quote from: Eric Blank on May 03, 2012, 01:31:15 pm
But, they breed in worldgen? Hmm... Damn complex spore-based reproductive system.
They don't, or at least don't without modding. Every dragon you find in vanilla will be "one of the first of it's kind" and was created out of nothingness in year 1 along with everything else. That's why every dragon you ever encounter is an adult, because they were all created as adults.

Sorry, but I just tested this with entirely vanilla raws besides some modifications to make finding dragons easier. (by removing other megabeasts.) Reducing dragon egg size was also used, but egg size doesn't really matter in worldgen as far as anyone has shown.

Ok, I got some test results from legends mode of dragon reproductive behavior in worldgen:
- They can breed as young as age 23, within 67 years after worldgen begins (so probably as soon as worldgen brings them in touch with one-another)
- They will not have multiple children born on the same year despite laying up to 3 eggs in-game, from the numerous subjects I've found with any children.
- Females will breed with different males each time. No incestual relationships noticed, but I didn't look that hard.

Incomplete study results:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and here are the parameters for the world and RAW edits used, and some questions and stuff.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Please note that I am terrible at actually conducting scientific experiments and rarely use controls. These are questions of observation in a "natural" environment, though. As natural as it can get... This is the sloppiest !!SCIENCE!! I've ever seen and I'm ashamed of it. If you've got suggestions, please help. :-\

So, that's three young (relatively), female test subjects I could possibly use in testing to help determine at what age dragons can breed after worldgen, if at all. I'd have to find males to pair them with, but I think it was possible for any historical figures that are members of your civ to appear in later forts, so they might show up in migrant waves if they're trained well enough, right?

I'm impressed that Zangu bred so young.

I will try to locate dragons in their lairs and embark now.



EDIT: Forgot to mention, it appears that these males that the females are breeding with do not live in the same lair during worldgen.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: i2amroy on May 03, 2012, 04:07:14 pm
Interesting. Maybe world-generation circumvents some of the normal limits in the game, since I know for certain that they don't breed in fortress mode without the [CHILD:X] token, but maybe world generation follows different rules...
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 03, 2012, 04:09:20 pm
It seems so. It also only began with one of the recent updates.

Edit: Supreme victory!

I've located the lair of Zangu and her son, Slusa, and embarked. Right behind their door. Oh crap...

I managed to get a wall built around the wagon and get everyone except the two cats I brought inside. The cats' first thoughts were of the rodent population in the lair, so they went downstairs and pissed off the locals, setting the map ablaze just before the wagon was sealed off. Zangu seems pissed.


So, my first observations:
- never make the center of your embark the location of the lair you're investigating. Too close to the wagon.
- Don't bring cats when investigating dragons
- Both Zangu and her son register as adult dragons.
- I wish runesmith were up to date so I could just force them to be civ members and work from there. !!Fun!! is about to happen.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 03, 2012, 04:55:38 pm
Wouldn't it be easier to make them common domestic and pet, and just bring a breeding pair on embark?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 03, 2012, 05:11:04 pm
That would be superior for the remaining tests, yes.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 05:39:31 pm
We finally have a big population of dwarves (47). We also have iron, so I can make spare picks. Now I just have to get the dragon into the right room.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Walkaboutout on May 03, 2012, 05:45:38 pm
I'd like to add my two cents to this thread. I mostly lurk, but I've played a bit off and on. I too wanted to breed dragons. While I don't think I have a layer with a breeding pair on my embark, what I do have, by chance, is a nearby Goblin civ that I'm at war with.

In my first invasion from these guys, they brought War Cave Dragons. Now, I truly didn't realize the significance of this, since it was one of my first 34.07 games. I did peek at their site while I was in Legends Viewer, and they do indeed have a pair of "Outcast Cave Dragons" at their site, which I presumed was their breeding pair. Again, I didn't think much on the significance of this until reading this thread.

I'm not currently at home right now, so I can't get into my game and examine the goblin site more carefully. Also, I don't think I've seen a group of 12 War Cave Dragons come with an invasion wave since that first wave happened (I was sealed off from them on the map, in a somewhat undorfly fasion, so I survived the invasion and didn't kill any of the Cavies).

Again, as I said, I will get home, and examine their site in Legends Viewer. Maybe it's possible to cage and capture those cave dragons during an invasion. Hopefully I get another invasion with them. I just thought I'd throw my situation out there. Maybe we can't get true dragons, but perhaps those dilapidated cave dragons would serve as a poor substitute for pure-bred dragons.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Washcloth on May 03, 2012, 07:14:01 pm
This may be impossible for you to do, but i know that fire imp leather is fire resistant. Equip a dorf in full fire imp non-sense (hoods aswell, the works!) and then in a full set of steel armour (to further deter a firey doom). These dorfs will stand a much better chance of surviving long enough to help capture the dragons, although a mehtod to actually DO the capturing  is beyond me, Webbing may be your best bet, as i cant see a way to render the dragons unconsious with out severly maiming them/ killing them.

Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 03, 2012, 07:36:21 pm
I'm about to make the first attempt in 5 minutes after meticolous planning
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Corai on May 03, 2012, 07:42:27 pm
Ill send you a few of my thieves for live bait. Use them wisely.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Walkaboutout on May 03, 2012, 11:50:16 pm
Can't wait to hear your results Simon! In the mother of all irony, as I was about to goto bed tonight, a forgotten beast male dragon popped onto my surface map. I got him trapped, but 4 babies, 2 pets, and about 5 adult dwarves all died from his fiery breath as he was one step away from springing the cage. It was tragic, but alas, dragons are worth the price. If I EVER see another one, and it happens to be female, I'll be sure to update you folks. Of course, by then, I'm sure some !!SCIENCE!! will have answered all of our questions.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 04, 2012, 12:10:48 am
What do you mean by "forgotten beast male dragon"?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Walkaboutout on May 04, 2012, 12:12:41 am
Sorry if that was unclear. I just mean it was a beast rampage. I always just classify any notable historical figure that appears on the surface (or in the caves) with an announcement a forgotten beast, which I guess isn't technically correct (although there's a place or two in the Wiki where dragons are marked also as forgotten beasts). Didn't mean to be confusing about it.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: aaron32 on May 04, 2012, 12:54:33 am
Erm, I'd recommend when minecarts are in the game, To do this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 04, 2012, 01:24:21 am
Quote from: Walkaboutout on May 04, 2012, 12:12:41 am
Sorry if that was unclear. I just mean it was a beast rampage. I always just classify any notable historical figure that appears on the surface (or in the caves) with an announcement a forgotten beast, which I guess isn't technically correct (although there's a place or two in the Wiki where dragons are marked also as forgotten beasts). Didn't mean to be confusing about it.
Eh, terminology...  The proper term would be megabeast, which I believe forgotten beasts are a subcategory of.  I was envisioning an enormous firebreathing reptilian horror that crawled forth from the bowels of the earth to terrorize your fortress, which would be an awesome acquisition, but unbreedable.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 01:27:33 am
Quote from: aaron32 on May 04, 2012, 12:54:33 am
Erm, I'd recommend when minecarts are in the game, To do this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Is... Is that a dragon pulling a minecart with a rope stuffed up it's ass/it's extremely rope-like phallus?

Sorry, I don't really mean to insult your artwork, but the first thing I saw was dragon intercourse, then dragon intercourse with a minecart, and it made me laugh. :P
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 04, 2012, 01:48:02 am
Clearly the rope (or more likely, chain) is attached to a grappling hook/other barbed device inserted into the dragon's cloaca.  this would be directly analogous to the ring in a bull's nose.  Dragons are dangerous enough (the slightest mishap results in out of control fire and melted dwarves) that extreme measures are called for when it comes to having your dragons under complete control, and I think dwarves are clever enough to figure out a trick like that.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: aaron32 on May 04, 2012, 01:58:43 am
Quote from: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 01:27:33 am
Quote from: aaron32 on May 04, 2012, 12:54:33 am
Erm, I'd recommend when minecarts are in the game, To do this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Is... Is that a dragon pulling a minecart with a rope stuffed up it's ass/it's extremely rope-like phallus?

Sorry, I don't really mean to insult your artwork, but the first thing I saw was dragon intercourse, then dragon intercourse with a minecart, and it made me laugh. :P
Nah, It's alright. I really derped up that picture.  :P
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 12:25:31 pm
Guys, reporting back. I'm sure I could have reduced the fort to 0 dwarves using current methods. We need some real dwarven ingenuinity here. I will post up the newest attempt.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Walkaboutout on May 04, 2012, 12:27:40 pm
Quote from: Sadrice on May 04, 2012, 01:24:21 am
Eh, terminology...  The proper term would be megabeast, which I believe forgotten beasts are a subcategory of.  I was envisioning an enormous firebreathing reptilian horror that crawled forth from the bowels of the earth to terrorize your fortress, which would be an awesome acquisition, but unbreedable.

Oh der me, you're absolutely right. I must have been tired last night that my brain was not differentiating Megabeast and Forgotten Beast, haha.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 01:54:36 pm
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7462/schematics.gif)

the plan is that the dragon triggers the pressure plate and drops down to the cage trap level

problem? woudl it be better to just have the pressure plate linked to a bridge? would the dragon fall down?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 01:59:59 pm
My embark responsible for attempting to capture these two dragons is suffering from serious morale problems. The ranger captain, a high master marksdwarf and the only dwarf available who has ever slain a dragon before, just went melancholy, being the third now to die of insanity after two failed artifacts. There have been food, booze, and bed shortages on and off for a year and I never made a dining room to calm their nerves. We have plenty of cages, but no mechanisms. My first attempt at trapping the beasts has been excavated and partly rigged, but I'm waiting on those dorfs with mechanics labor enabled. Food and drink is still in short supply.

If only runesmith were up to date...

Simon, the dragons will not trigger the pressure plate.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 04, 2012, 02:16:58 pm
Wait, is that a bridge or floor tiles?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 02:28:03 pm
dafuq

what will i do then? this seems more and more like a impossible task that only dwarven death can follow from
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 04, 2012, 02:30:12 pm
Lever controlled dropping -_-

Though seriously, I can't tell from those graphics, and the deployment of a support confuses me further.

If bridges were used, dear Armok I have a use for this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106915.msg3175423#msg3175423)
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: GavJ on May 04, 2012, 02:40:46 pm
 I    I     I     I     <---1x1 rooms with supports in them , and with the ceilings not linked to anything.
 F    F    F    F     <--- fortifications
--C----CC---C--C     <--hallway dragons will path along, full of cage traps
 F    F    F    F
 I    I     I    I

Get the dragons to path through there, then pull the lever on the supports.  It will be impossible to kill the dragons outright, because the ceilings fall in on the rooms which are out of reach.  However, dust will flow through fortifications, knocking the dragons around and stunning them.  Falling is not necessary here, though, so hopefully there would be few injuries.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 02:45:13 pm
Jsut crushed the expedition leader under part of the trap because the dumbfuck wasn't done with the support...
 The dwarf that removed the connecting floor tile ended up in a cage trap ::)

Quote from: GavJ on May 04, 2012, 02:40:46 pm
I    I     I     I     <---1x1 rooms with supports in them , and with the ceilings not linked to anything.
 F    F    F    F     <--- fortifications
--C----CC---C--C     <--hallway dragons will path along, full of cage traps
 F    F    F    F
 I    I     I    I

Get the dragons to path through there, then pull the lever on the supports.  It will be impossible to kill the dragons outright, because the ceilings fall in on the rooms which are out of reach.  However, dust will flow through fortifications, knocking the dragons around and stunning them.  Falling is not necessary here, though, so hopefully there would be few injuries.

Well, damn. That's a good plan there.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 02:52:18 pm
VICTORY!!!!!
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 02:56:42 pm
(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5715/victoryi.gif)

CONFIRMED: a 1-z level drop will trap immune dragons!
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 04, 2012, 03:02:48 pm
What method did you end up using, and how many dwarves have you lost so far?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 03:05:31 pm
20 dwarves, and it was a floor row supported by a support and a 4x4 zone of cage traps below. The other one will be much more tricky, because I have to construct a new floor up to it.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: GavJ on May 04, 2012, 03:08:08 pm
Quote from: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 03:05:31 pm
20 dwarves, and it was a floor row supported by a support and a 4x4 zone of cage traps below. The other one will be much more tricky, because I have to construct a new floor up to it.
Nonsense, just abandon that whole hallway, and start a new one from a different angle, that you open up to the dragon only at the last moment.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 03:10:41 pm
Sounds like it would save a lot of dwarv lives. But whats the advantage?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 03:50:33 pm
Quote from: GavJ on May 04, 2012, 03:08:08 pm
Quote from: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 03:05:31 pm
20 dwarves, and it was a floor row supported by a support and a 4x4 zone of cage traps below. The other one will be much more tricky, because I have to construct a new floor up to it.
Nonsense, just abandon that whole hallway, and start a new one from a different angle, that you open up to the dragon only at the last moment.

the problem with the whole thing is that the dragon kills dwarves from a screen away with dragon fire
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 04:24:00 pm
Ta-ta! Second one is caugh. The DRAGON TEMPLE is now being constructed. I have high hopes for these.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 04:29:12 pm
SOMETHING is up with these dragons. They are following the trainer everywhere. I am fucking scared when they sit in the booze pile.

(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9016/dragontemple.gif)
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 04:43:48 pm
Pasture them in the tempe, perhaps? And make sure said temple has a drawbridge and a trap setup in the event they revert to a wild state.

I've managed to catch Slusa, the son, but Zangu has escaped my clutches twice. I've opted to let them path in circles through my trap hall, back and forth between two halves of their lair. Because they're dumb and just HAVE to go where the cave moss is bluer. I caught Slusa the first time around and he's being trained, now. I use DFhack to create obsidian walls and floors to decide which side I want them to try to path to.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 04:49:13 pm
I caught them without cheating - at the meager cost of just a bunch of useless fish dissectors and other ingrates.

In fact I've never been so happy with my population, every fort should have a dragon to catch so you can weed out these undesirables in a meaningful and productive way.

HOWEVER I AM A BIT WORRIED, because the dragon is sitting on the next box (claimed) and there's a egg inside (door is locked to the room) but no dragon babies yet. But if she is sitting on it... the daddy dragon should impregnate her right?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 04:54:41 pm
If there is at least one male out in open air, not in a cage, when a female claims a nest box and lays her egg(s), the eggs will always be fertilized. Unless, of course, the creature is unable to breed in the first place...

I've captured Zangu, at the cost of using obsidian walls to lock her in the capture zone before she made it through the door.

Now the ‼testing‼ can begin...
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: i2amroy on May 04, 2012, 04:56:32 pm
Quote from: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 04:54:41 pm
Unless, of course, the creature is unable to breed in the first place...
Which, unless Toady snuck some changes on us recently, is true.

I'm just going to tell you right now that the chances of your dragons actually having baby dragons is extremely slim. They will lay eggs, but the eggs won't hatch as far as we currently know. This can be fixed by adding [CHILD:X] to the dragon entry.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 04:58:33 pm
[CHILD:1] for example?  8)
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: i2amroy on May 04, 2012, 05:00:56 pm
Quote from: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 04:58:33 pm
[CHILD:1] for example?  8)
That would cause them to grow to adulthood after spending one year as a child, yes. :P There is a good chance that you will need to wait for the next batch of eggs after you add that token for the eggs to hatch though, and it still might take a fair amount of time before the eggs actually do hatch and become children.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 05:04:07 pm
Quote from: i2amroy on May 04, 2012, 04:56:32 pm
Quote from: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 04:54:41 pm
Unless, of course, the creature is unable to breed in the first place...
Which, unless Toady snuck some changes on us recently, is true.

I'm just going to tell you right now that the chances of your dragons actually having baby dragons is extremely slim. They will lay eggs, but the eggs won't hatch as far as we currently know. This can be fixed by adding [CHILD:X] to the dragon entry.

Exactly, but that's also exactly what we're testing, since dragons in worldgen will so willingly reproduce, I intend to find out if they will continue to do so. I understand it's unlikely, but if that's the case then it's to be assumed that either any creature can reproduce during worldgen regardless of the presence of a [CHILD:x] tag, or only mega- and semi-megabeasts can.

Edit: Ah crap I tried to transfer her to Slusa's cage, and she went balistic and my entire hovel lit up like a christmas tree. Spraying fire like a blind crossbowman.

She burned down the now-trained slusa's cage, who promptly ripped her throat out, killing her. So much for family bonds...

Savescumming. Need moar dargons
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 05:25:24 pm
I've added the child tag after the first egg was botched. I forbid the 2 eggs she laid now. This fort will be the most insanely well defended fort EVER.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Bartinyou on May 04, 2012, 05:52:13 pm
Quote from: simonthedwarf on May 04, 2012, 05:25:24 pm
I've added the child tag after the first egg was botched. I forbid the 2 eggs she laid now. This fort will be the most insanely well defended fort EVER.
Until your animal trainer decides to attend that awesome party in the dining hall.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Starver on May 04, 2012, 06:25:38 pm
Don't know if it applies now, and to basic training (which has been rather redone) but one of the things one could do to avoid the need to irrevocably assign a war animal to a soldier in previous versions was to ensure the war-training was done by the soldier that you right now want to be accompanied by the animal.  You then don't get (IIRC) the negative thoughts of loss of the animal, and also get the chance to officially assign them to another soldier when your plans are firmer.

However, I've not done any animal training (let alone to war/hunting specialisations) under the newer system, so I've no idea if this is the reason that the trained-from-scratch dragon is trailing the trainer 'wot done it'.  But it's the first thing that came to mind when I saw the problem.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 09:29:48 pm
Alright, second time around and I've got both dragons happily trained. Well, kinda. Slusa was let out of his cage for long enough for zangu to lay her eggs, then shoved back in the cage a couple weeks later. He's repeatedly reverted toa  wild state. Zangu has had no such problems and is -trained-. The trainer is still fairly inexperienced, though.

Zangu's eggs haven't hatched yet. It's been one season.

Freaking dragon won't obey pasture orders.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Triskelli on May 05, 2012, 03:06:26 am
Quote from: Eric Blank on May 04, 2012, 09:29:48 pm
Zangu's eggs haven't hatched yet. It's been one season.

I remember reading that hatching time depends on the EGG_SIZE token.  Geese have an egg size of 152, while dragons have an egg size of 6100.  If hatching time increases linearly, the you'll have to wait ~40 times as long for them to hatch.

Also, due to the "breeding by spores" dynamic, you only need to capture and tame the female Dragon to get fertilized eggs.  You can leave the male in his cavern for a little extra !!FUN!!
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 05, 2012, 08:52:14 am
I set their egg size to 10, which should take a ridiculously short time to hatch. I've pulled the plug after six months and will have her lay another clutch soon to see if fertilization was unsuccessful.

Simon's eggs hatched in one year after adding the CHILD:x tag.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Eric Blank on May 05, 2012, 05:55:13 pm
I gave Zangu another chance to breed but the eggs were infertile once again. Should the tokens that control breeding in worldgen be studied?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 05, 2012, 09:30:34 pm
Egg size might be important - but I remember having dragons in another game through embark hacking and they would not breed at all even if you made egg size=1.

Child and baby tags did it
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: imperium3 on May 05, 2012, 10:06:48 pm
Quote from: Sadrice on May 02, 2012, 11:45:17 pm
The children will be useless for melee defense until they are 1000 years old (size 6000, only slightly larger than cats, at 5000), but will be a valuable source of prepared meals, bonecrafts, prepared meals, soap, and leather goods.  Young dragons could still be used in dragon fire emplacements, bunkered behind fortifications, with shutters in case of archers, but would overall probably be more valuable dead.

Wait, what??? You'd rather have some expensive soap and trade goods* over a defence system that can turn half the map into flame (assuming sufficiently prolific dragons and pillboxes)? That doesn't even need magma??

You are no dwarf.

*An exception is allowed if you can get a dragon bone throne via moods.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 05, 2012, 10:32:18 pm
 A dragon bone throne would be something nice to own
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 05, 2012, 11:27:36 pm
There would be plenty of little dragonlings for turrets of flame, and whatever other uses a controllable ignition source could provide, but there would likely be extra for some very fashionable dragon leather boots, or dragon liver paté for your dwarves to snack on.  Does anyone know whether dragon's [FIREIMMUNE_SUPER]confers any fire resistance on dragonleather products?  I don't think so, I think that has to do with the inherent temperature of the materials (which is such a bizarre and physics breaking concept), but I'm not sure.

Actually, now that I think of it, they have a rather small clutch size, long incubation period, and none would come to reproductive age in the lifetime of your fortress.  So the dragon supply might keep the mayor from having the fabulous high boots he wants so badly until there are sufficient flamethrowers for all of the emplacements at the entrance.  This could be modded easily, and you would already be modding to get dragon hatchlings in the first place, but this is a bit cheatier.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sabreur on May 06, 2012, 12:06:05 am
Quote from: imperium3 on May 05, 2012, 10:06:48 pm
Quote from: Sadrice on May 02, 2012, 11:45:17 pm
The children will be useless for melee defense until they are 1000 years old (size 6000, only slightly larger than cats, at 5000), but will be a valuable source of prepared meals, bonecrafts, prepared meals, soap, and leather goods.  Young dragons could still be used in dragon fire emplacements, bunkered behind fortifications, with shutters in case of archers, but would overall probably be more valuable dead.

Wait, what??? You'd rather have some expensive soap and trade goods* over a defence system that can turn half the map into flame (assuming sufficiently prolific dragons and pillboxes)? That doesn't even need magma??

You are no dwarf.

*An exception is allowed if you can get a dragon bone throne via moods.

Going through 20 miscellaneous dwarves and a few engineering accidents for the sake of dragon tallow soap sounds pretty dwarfy to me!  In all seriousness, if they breed fast enough he can probably do both - dragonsoap *and* a dragon pillbox defense system.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on May 06, 2012, 12:20:42 am
Quote from: Sadrice on May 05, 2012, 11:27:36 pm
...anyone know whether dragon's [FIREIMMUNE_SUPER]confers any fire resistance on dragonleather products?  I don't think so, I think that has to do with the inherent temperature of the materials (which is such a bizarre and physics breaking concept), but I'm not sure....

Nope, but dragons do have this at the end of their raws:
Code: [Select]
[SELECT_MATERIAL:ALL]
[MULTIPLY_VALUE:15]
[COLDDAM_POINT:NONE]
[HEATDAM_POINT:NONE]
[IGNITE_POINT:NONE]
[IF_EXISTS_SET_MELTING_POINT:55000]
[IF_EXISTS_SET_BOILING_POINT:57000]
[SPEC_HEAT:30000]
Need to make sure blood and pus aren't solid at regular temperatures.
[SELECT_MATERIAL:BLOOD]
[PLUS_MATERIAL:PUS]
[MELTING_POINT:10000]
so dragon products aren't going to be melting, burning, or damaged by heat/cold.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: simonthedwarf on May 06, 2012, 12:32:23 am
to me treating dragons like common leather/bone/meat products belittles them. so many animals are already little other than this.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sabreur on May 06, 2012, 01:22:36 am
Quote from: simonthedwarf on May 06, 2012, 12:32:23 am
to me treating dragons like common leather/bone/meat products belittles them. so many animals are already little other than this.

Taking a mighty creature and turning it into soap is a dwarven rite of passage!  They should be honored to have their tallow rendered for such a noble cause.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Lagslayer on May 06, 2012, 06:44:40 am
An entire fortress made of dragon by-products. It must be modded.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Naryar on May 06, 2012, 07:47:00 am
I have [CHILD:200] as for my dragons. It seems alright, for a beast that can live forever.

And they totally breed in their lairs.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Saiko Kila on May 06, 2012, 09:57:47 am
Quote from: Naryar on May 06, 2012, 07:47:00 am
I have [CHILD:200] as for my dragons. It seems alright, for a beast that can live forever.

I don't know. Elves and goblins also live forever, and they mature much quicker than that. In any way I find immortal creatures disgusting because they are abominations against nature. Therefore I'd prefer to use them as leather and bone donors more than as any form of defence. I don't know about elves, but dragons can be quite crappy against tough opponents, like metal Fbs. In one of previous fortresses I had three dragons dying to one metal(*) FB who, although melting and all, was still capable to punch the brains out of these dragons and stain the nearby environment with them. One bolt from a marksdwarf was enough to kill that beast.

If there were ways to lay sieges to enemies then dragons would be useful. Their dragonfire is hotter (and/or differently working) than magma and can destroy a surprisingly wide selection of objects and constructions. But in dwarven fortresses they are more a liability than an asset.

*)zinc FB. Zinc is the metal which boils in magma. Zinc supports and cages evaporate faster than wooden ones in magma. Yet the dragons couldn't fry it.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sabreur on May 06, 2012, 05:50:55 pm
Quote from: Saiko Kila on May 06, 2012, 09:57:47 am
But in dwarven fortresses they are more a liability than an asset.

Much like the dwarves themselves!
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sadrice on May 07, 2012, 04:18:59 am
I don't think they would be very good at direct combat, too valuable and too delicate.  They would be very useful hidden away in purpose built dragon turrets, whether for setting fire to the landscape or just melting goblins and elves.  If you placed one behind a fortification behind a raised bridge looking into a chokepoint in your entrance, the bridge could be dropped at the last second (or sooner if no invader marksmen are present) to melt them all.  There could be a hatch in the ceiling to drop a hostile creature/captured goblin into the midst of an elven caravan, causing the dragon to melt them all.

So, since dragon leather is incapable of burning, does that in any way affect the fate of a dwarf wearing it that comes in contact with fire or magma?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Walkaboutout on May 07, 2012, 01:43:57 pm
Okay, so, someone tell me if I have this right.

1) Egg Size in the raws doesn't seem to determine hatch time. The Child tag controls the hatching.
   
1a) I would think that, if egg size DID control hatching time, not having the child tag would simply mean that the dragon would hatch as an adult, but be of the size determined also in the raws. Oh well.

2) On body size. According to the raws, all dragons, until they reach 1000 years old, are of size 6000. At year 1000, according to the raw, their size then changes to 25 million. Wow!

In all the fortresses I've ever encountered a dragon, I don't think it was ever 1000 years or older. I've never generated a world that was that old, in fact all my generated worlds are generated only up to 125 years. Now, I've never really looked at the legends stuff until very recently (it's a whole new dimension of fun for me), so I don't KNOW for certain how old those few dragons might have been.

But in my current game, the dragon that appeared at my fortress that I trapped (invader dragons aren't trap immune of course) and trained, is only (I'm not at home at the moment), about 100 or so years old. The year was like 132 or something when he appeared, and in legends it said he was born about 100 years back. Again, I forget the exact number but I'll look when I get home.

Assuming that in world gen those body size tags apply there too, is it safe to assume that all dragons I at least have ever encountered were only, as powerful as they were/are (thanks firebreath!), about 6000 in physical size? That's about half the size of a 1 year old dog, according to their raws also.

If that's the case, then all I can say is Holy Armok's Beard! I would also suggest that, if modding dragon children in, perhaps editing their size tags would be in order. Something like, at 5 years, they're size 10000, etc. Or do those body size tags work differently than I think? Does the creature grow in equal increments every singe year such that it reaches whatever size is defined by the next body size tag or something like that?
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sphalerite on May 07, 2012, 01:55:57 pm
Quote from: Walkaboutout on May 07, 2012, 01:43:57 pm
1) Egg Size in the raws doesn't seem to determine hatch time. The Child tag controls the hatching.

Correct.  The egg size value doesn't seem to do anything, other than possibly determine how heavy the eggs are for purposes of carrying them.

Quote
2) On body size. According to the raws, all dragons, until they reach 1000 years old, are of size 6000. At year 1000, according to the raw, their size then changes to 25 million. Wow!

Actually, it appears that creatures change size gradually.  A dragon starts at size 6000, then gradually increases in size until it is 25 million at age 1000.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: PoodleIncident on May 07, 2012, 01:57:27 pm
We've been over this. Body size scales up linearly, and they grow a bit per year.

The 1000 year bodysize is just there to satisfy the "dragons never stop growing" trope, a common bit of dragon lore.

NINJAS

HIDE THE CHILDREN
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Walkaboutout on May 07, 2012, 02:17:16 pm
Ahhh. Thanks for clarifying all. And you're right, der, page 2 and 3. Sigh. I guess I need to be getting more sleep these days, don't I? But these dwarves need CONSTANT supervision! I do wish there was a way to check size in game at a given time. Some type of add on or something. Therapist doesn't that I know of, or DFHack. Donno about Runesmith, never used it, though I think I read that it hasn't been updated for the latest DF anyways. Ah wells. I'll just bite my tongue now.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: ashton1993 on August 08, 2012, 06:15:12 pm
Wait a second, what's with the sudden lack of progress? I was reading this and I was like "Epic, keep reading, lets see if someone's got a dragon army or something yet" and you've got like a dozen posts a day, reach May 7th and give up on dwarf-kind *tuts*

Well thank Armok this necro has given you all the opportunity to grow your beards back to a full length :P
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Scruffy on August 08, 2012, 06:34:16 pm
Seems like a stealthed necromancer ressed an old thread from its coffin. :-\

Now then, where did I leave those masterwork necromancy wards..

Edit: Yep, I too agree that this has been an interesting thread and am interested in hearing more about this project.
Title: Re: I got a female and a male dragon
Post by: Sabreur on August 08, 2012, 07:41:46 pm
Quote from: ashton1993 on August 08, 2012, 06:15:12 pm
Wait a second, what's with the sudden lack of progress? I was reading this and I was like "Epic, keep reading, lets see if someone's got a dragon army or something yet" and you've got like a dozen posts a day, reach May 7th and give up on dwarf-kind *tuts*

Well thank Armok this necro has given you all the opportunity to grow your beards back to a full length :P

I'm still alive!  The fort fell due to an experiment in determining whether clowns are vulnerable to dragonfire - they're not.  I know the wiki said they are immune to heat, but I had to check, dammit!  I'm currently debating on whether to savescum or move on to a new project.

As a side note, shields are stupidly powerful against dragonfire.  I actually had a goblin mace-lord shield-block his way all the way through the main gate while taking fire from four dragons simultaneously.  Everything around him died, but he wasn't touched.  Maybe dragonfire from multiple directions would work?

As for the dragon army, I've actually made pretty good progress.  The only hitch is that I can't figure out a way to unleash them on invaders without mass friendly-fire casualties.  As my legendary miner expedition leader found out the hard way.  I can pasture them in pillboxes, no problem.  The one time they got loose and got into close combat, they were monsters - right up until they incinerated each other.