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Author Topic: Arms and Armor discussion  (Read 34791 times)

Mlamlah

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2013, 03:30:43 am »

XD Full plate isn't actually that heavy, funnily enough the equipment of modern soldiers all together is about as heavy, it's not near enough to encumber a horse.
Speaking of bodkin arrows, wern't those designed for better armor penetration? The flatheads were traditional but useless against armor, i was always under the impression that bodkin arrows were designed to better breach weakpoints.
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gogis

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2013, 05:27:18 am »

One of the most effective ways to deal with the best enemy pikemen was for Knights to dismount, get beneath the pikes and begin hacking. The heavily armoured men at arms would heavily outclass the pikemen, providing they didn't get stabbed to pieces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweih%C3%A4nder
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Funk

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2013, 06:41:02 am »


Well, it's impossible to fight with a plate armor on foot. That's why knights had badass horses, and were killed by peasants with polearms if they fell of it.
More to do with falling off your horse generally killing you regardless. Momentum meets hard ground.
even that is not too bad see here for falling off
cart wheel in armor
this is a great video from the The Metropolitan Museum of Art.
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Vattic

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2013, 07:49:52 am »

A couple of quick ones:

What most people would call warhammers are actually mauls (sledgehammer-like weapon). Warhammers were more like picks used for puncturing armour.

The typical image of a double headed battleaxe is unrealistic. In reality double headed axes are most commonly seen in the possession of lumberjacks. I've read two reasons for this: one is that it avoids you having to stop half way through the day to sharpen the edge and the other is that each edge is for a different job.
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Ogdibus

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2013, 08:34:46 am »

.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 03:31:53 pm by Ogdibus »
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Gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2013, 11:43:36 am »

In my mind I have been building a set of plate armour, in the off chance I found a wormhole into the 14th century.

I think plate is awesome but I think it would be beneficial to have a layer of chainmaille underneath.  Under that you'd want a leather jacket preferably a motorcycle one that has lightweight foam on the shoulders and around vulnerable parts of the body. Also a massive helmet would be needed to be able to survive. It'd need a strong plastic visor to be able to stop small knives from penetrating. 

I know weight is a major issue but I think that with modern metallic alloys you can get a greater strength and less weight then the historic ones, while giving far better protection.

As for weapons I'd get a poleaxe/halberd with a sword and multiple knives as back up weapons.  All built out of quality steel to ensure they don't break on me.

I don't know how to ride a horse though.

Jesus christ!?! When you go camping do you pack up your house in a pest control tent and drag it to the camp site? Same concept. Not only would that weight kill you by just being super unable to move but also the weapons you would be carrying would be so completely unwieldy you might as well call yourself a noncombatant.

I much prefer the Iberians hannibal had in his army. Completely naked with a massive two handed bronze sword. Reavers if I have ever heard of one.
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Zangi

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2013, 11:54:27 am »

Katana aren't brittle.  Only the edge is hard, while the rest of the sword is flexible.  The purpose of folding is to remove impurities in the iron.  Japan has high levels of impurity in it's iron.  When you hear about high fold counts, it is an indication that the materials were refined thoroughly.  It has nothing to do with the blades' sharpness. 

The role of the weapon directly correlates with the European arming sword.  It was no more or less specialized.  The weapon doesn't require mobility, regardless of what the traditional styles were.  It's functionally very similar to a grosse messer.

Not all European swords are made to defeat armor.  The ability and means of doing so varies with design and era.  If you look at Oakeshott typology and armor by period, you can see the relationship of the two as they compete.

An exceptional katana can cut, (not just pierce) metal.  That isn't even something a person should reasonably expect from a sword.  It's the reason that the term 斬鉄剣 exists.  While a European design might be made to do the same, the idea seems to be less popular.

.....

I'm glad to see the armor myths being dispelled. :3
I don't know jack about this... but... for clarification:

Katanas have the folds cause crappy iron in Japan. 
Exceptional/Masterwork/Artifact Katanas can cut metal.
Metals are made of that crappy iron in Japan.  Y/N?
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2013, 11:58:09 am »

Speaking of bodkin arrows, wern't those designed for better armor penetration? The flatheads were traditional but useless against armor, i was always under the impression that bodkin arrows were designed to better breach weakpoints.

The Bodkins were designed to pierce armour, since their shape would concentrate all the force of the arrow into one tiny point. The flatheads were mostly for hunting, since the wider head would cut more arteries/muscles/generally cause more damage. But against armour their wide head just dispersed the force too much to be effective against armoured men. Mind you (if I remember correctly) the platemail of the 1400s were designed to be resistant against arrows, as its slopes and smooth surfaces offered little purchase for the arrowhead. But if the arrow found a clink or flaw or something along those lines, then it would easily pierce the plates. So a single bodkin arrow probably wasn't going to kill a mounted knight unless you were a very good shot, but if you had enough arrows then at least one of them is going through the armour to kill the knight within.
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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2013, 12:04:39 pm »

Bodkins are better at piercing mail than flatheads, however, no bodkins found have had hardened heads, and only two have been used for armour piercing tests, which isn't exactly a representative number.

According to wikipedia, at least.

I think that they'd have better armour-piercing capabilities then flatheads. You reduce the surface area and increase the force on that small area. Of course I guess that the mechanical ability of the bodkins is still up for question. Whether they'd be able to handle the stresses and not snap or break. But theoretically a bodkin arrow should perform better then the flathead.
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kerlc

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2013, 12:10:55 pm »

I like how most people completely overlook the roman Lorica Segmentata when discussing platemail armour. It provided mobility, solid protection and was relatively easy to carry around due to it being made of iron strips. It was a bitch to clean, though, and still is for many reinactors.

In that aspect, the less advanced Lorica Hamata, which was basically just iron mail was much better, as it was easier to clean if a bit heavier to wear. Some roman officers peffered to use it, as it was less requiring as far as maintenance goes.
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Darvi

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2013, 12:14:39 pm »

I think arms are great. Very versatile and useful limbs.

About the katanas: Last I checked, katanas fared just as well as the western swords, but they were designed for different fighting styles: The western swords tended to rely more on brute force, whilst katanas relied more on your agility and dexterity.
Pretty much no.

Also, feudal Japan favoured bows and polearms, so the swords were little less than a backup weapon should one get into a melee.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:16:20 pm by Darvi »
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Darvi

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2013, 12:17:16 pm »

I comically plain didn't even aim at the point.
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kerlc

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2013, 12:18:19 pm »

Also, the roman helmets tended to cut the back of your neck if you wore it for extended periods.
The legionarres were fully aware of that fact and often wore leather or cloth under them to prevent it.
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kerlc

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2013, 12:21:07 pm »

Also, the roman helmets tended to cut the back of your neck if you wore it for extended periods.
The legionarres were fully aware of that fact and often wore leather or cloth under them to prevent it.
Or didn't wear it until battle.

Unlike the films, they tended not to walk around wearing the helmets everywhere.
yes, they usually suited up before battle. :P

But battles could be lenghty, so they wore a leater or cloth neckguard.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:24:11 pm by kerlc »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2013, 12:27:30 pm »

The maneuverability of someone in full plate armour varied with what kind of armour it was.  At Agincourt there were a bunch of super-heavy cavalry units that couldn't get onto their horses unassisted.  I guess they could probably eventually get up after falling over, but that would be harder with mud, arrows and guys trying to stab you.
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