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Author Topic: Food need preferences now too strong  (Read 16787 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2016, 04:03:25 am »

Dwarves do not bring fruit as far as I know, but they do bring surface plants and berries, elves bring fruit but not plants or berries, while humans bring plants and berries, but I don't think they bring fruit (I may be wrong there). Humans also bring surface plant seeds.

Provided other needs are met, there's no obvious outward sign of unmet food needs (no distracted symbol, for instance). I've played a 75+ year fortress (started with 0.42.03, I think. Definitely 0.42.X anyway) that only had occasional temporary distraction indications.

And no, I don't think severe distraction leads to riots (but maybe they should, if widespread and severe enough).

@Bumber:
Dwarves failing to satisfy their need due to the ability to identify meals containing the ingredient needs to be fixed for the food need system to be functional. If that is taken care of the chances of other dwarves' favorites being claimed by others ought to decrease a bit. When fixing the favorite food finding, I'd also change dorfs that fail to find their favorites to go for as nice a meal as possible (i.e. masterworks lavish meals, if available), as that would reduce the ingredient loss due to random eating by uninterested dorfs. If a working food selection was in place, dorfs might also be given things they detest and would eat only if nothing edible was available, resulting in a significant penalty if forced to eat one of these things (a plump helmet detester in a plump helmet only fortress should likely go bonkers, and/or might hunt vermin rather than work to get something not quite as horrible to eat, going for the plump helmets only if out of vermin).
The new convenience stuff Toady is currently implemented might also make it possible to leave some ingredients in their raw form and to spread the rest of their usage between different usages. Currently I use brewables for brewing exclusively, for instance, since I can't juggle brewing/milling/... manually without a huge manual effort (checking levels of everything every minute or so).
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2016, 06:43:08 am »

i am not trying to argue against anyone in this post; I am just adding my thoughts.

If the player expends a small amount of effort, they are easily able to have at least twelve specific types of foods. There's the subterranean crops: plump helmets, dwarven wine, dwarven ale, quarry bush leaves, rock nut paste, rock nut pressed cake, rock nut oil, dwarven rum, dwarven syrup, dwarven sugar, dwarven wheat flour, and dwarven beer. Then there's all the different organs one can get from just one or two animals (think of liver and lungs and heart and sweetbread). Then there's fishing, plant gathering, aboveground crops, eggs...

With just two or three of these options, players can satisfy the "twelve foods" requirement pretty easily. And the point is that this minimum is just a minimum requirement for adequate happiness. If sieges keep that from happening - all the better. Then siege-waiting-out would lead to problems like it's supposed to. Sieges are only broken because "the ultimate defense" equals "cask of montadillo", and it has very few negative effects.

Well, that and broken AI.

The problem with NW_Kohaku's idea is that it is too easy to do that, to grow an item from each of the twelve categories and then is your food requirements sorted out for all eternity.  The situation virtually kills off the need for a world economy (by this I mean goods actually being moved around the world, not wages and stuff) since we and the AI can simply produce an item from each category themselves and that is that.  There might be some localised, mostly inter-civilization trade if an given site is unable to produce an item of that category but nothing along the lines of the spice road of real history.

In real-life people did go through great length to ship foods from one end of the known world to the other, that is what spices just means really, foods that are produced a long way away and shipped over to our end of the world.  While the randomised needs delivers the need for a world economy, it also results in absurd situation where there is a demand for things that cannot be acquired and somehow the dwarves have heard about the food they have never eaten and know that they like it enough to complain they are not getting it.  This is why I think that the needs should be randomised initially but then the needs that are not meetable should be hidden but would be revealed if the dwarf happens to come into contact with the item in question.

Using NW_Kohaku's concept of flavour categories, a new demand that *is* culturally meetable is generated to cover the missing need.  This creates a scenario where we might in adventure mode might deliberately introduce exotic foods into a civilization in order to trigger the demand for those items that cannot be produced locally, so that they then have to buy more of the stuff forever and our adventurer gets very rich/important as a result.

Well, I don't. It's too much effort to select it all, isn't sold in large enough quantities, takes up additional stockpile space, builds up inedible/unusable seeds (which then tie up bags,) only pleases part of the fort, is likely to be eaten first by people who don't even like it, and is not sought out by dwarves when cooked into a prepared meal.

As it stands, I try to cater to my most stress-vulnerable dwarves, and the rest can just eat what we hunt/grow (which my stockpiles already overflow with.) If I were using DFHack (dwarfmonitor), I might try to acquire the foods that the greatest number of dwarves had preference for.

Why can't they just be satisfied with their masterwork roasts? Eating your most favorite food in the whole world is a luxury (good thought,) not a basic need. It's not even on my mind if I haven't had chicken marsala in over a year. Cheeseburgers are fine.

The game does not presently distinguish between luxuries and basic needs really; the luxury needs are really the distractions category in general.  If they do not get exotic foods your dwarves do not starve to death so there is no basic need here and the moment they get one item of the food they like their demands are full green for the time being.  The risk of the item being eaten by a dwarf that does not particularly demand it is there, but there are presumably a whole large range of other items for them to eat as well.

Most of the other objections are solvable with an improvement to the interface, so could can select all goods of a certain category using a single button rather than having to scroll through everything at present. 

Dwarves do not bring fruit as far as I know, but they do bring surface plants and berries, elves bring fruit but not plants or berries, while humans bring plants and berries, but I don't think they bring fruit (I may be wrong there). Humans also bring surface plant seeds.

Provided other needs are met, there's no obvious outward sign of unmet food needs (no distracted symbol, for instance). I've played a 75+ year fortress (started with 0.42.03, I think. Definitely 0.42.X anyway) that only had occasional temporary distraction indications.

And no, I don't think severe distraction leads to riots (but maybe they should, if widespread and severe enough).

Dwarves bring surface fruits but not surface plants since the former is covered by [OUTDOOR_GARDENS] which they have while the latter is covered by [OUTDOOR_FARMING] which they do not have.  Basically it would seem that dwarves leave the surface world alone mostly but make annual excursions to the surface world to gather fruit. 

It is the total sum of all the distractions that matters PatrikLundell, the individual distractions can do nothing at all on their own however unmet they are as long as the majority of the other needs are met.  This is quite a good thing since a whole raft of needs are actually unmeetable or meetable so scarcely that they effectively are. 
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2016, 07:52:18 am »

:
Dwarves bring surface fruits but not surface plants since the former is covered by [OUTDOOR_GARDENS] which they have while the latter is covered by [OUTDOOR_FARMING] which they do not have.  Basically it would seem that dwarves leave the surface world alone mostly but make annual excursions to the surface world to gather fruit. 

It is the total sum of all the distractions that matters PatrikLundell, the individual distractions can do nothing at all on their own however unmet they are as long as the majority of the other needs are met.  This is quite a good thing since a whole raft of needs are actually unmeetable or meetable so scarcely that they effectively are. 
As far as I've seen, dwarven caravans bring the same edible surface things that are made available on embark, which includes berries like blueberries, cranberries, etc, X Amaranth leaves, Artichoke Hearts, etc, but I've never seen fruit (as in apples, or the other tree produced items). Absence of a farming tag might explain why dwarves aren't given access to barley and other cereals (although I usually base most of my surface farming off of plants gathered during the first year, including cereals, but DF ecology isn't a real world one, where plants bred into species very different from their wild origins aren't encountered in the wild).

My note that a single unmet need is not catastrophic was not intended as a complaint, but as an observation of the current state of things to stave off any belief that it would be catastrophic. My experience of unmet needs indicates the effects are reasonably balanced, but I have tried to meet needs to a reasonable extent, so I haven't pushed the boundary.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2016, 09:35:59 am »

The problem with NW_Kohaku's idea is that it is too easy to do that, to grow an item from each of the twelve categories and then is your food requirements sorted out for all eternity.  The situation virtually kills off the need for a world economy (by this I mean goods actually being moved around the world, not wages and stuff) since we and the AI can simply produce an item from each category themselves and that is that.

Well, that argument relies upon a few massive assumptions that the rest of us haven't bought into, now doesn't it?

First, you're assuming that choices of what food you should make available to dwarves should be "difficult", by which is meant, "requiring lots of micromanagement". I do not think this adds anything of value to the game.  The only thing that should really be necessary is making sure that players don't just rely upon a single staple crop, and frankly, the agriculture rewrites can accomplish that on its own.  In light of how agriculture accomplishes far more while actually benefiting gameplay, I don't find this a worthwhile goal to pursue.

Second, you're assuming that trading for food is the only valid reason any fortress would ever trade, and therefore, without trading for food being mandated upon all fortresses, there would never be a reason to trade again.  This assumption overlooks the purpose of the caravan arc, and how we now have the likes of temples, taverns, and the like, as well as future starting scenarios which, as previously mentioned in this thread as well as elsewhere, should have a massive impact upon whether fortresses should even want to trade.  If enforcing trade is a goal, then Class Warfare has far better methods of doing so, as making actual luxury goods a focus of trade, rather than basic necessities not only makes far more sense, but also provides for more dynamic gameplay since it is, again, not just writing down a list of every animal meat you need to supply to avoid an arbitrary distraction penalty.

Which really brings up this:
The game does not presently distinguish between luxuries and basic needs really; the luxury needs are really the distractions category in general.  If they do not get exotic foods your dwarves do not starve to death so there is no basic need here and the moment they get one item of the food they like their demands are full green for the time being.
Basically, you're proposing arbitrary food requirements as a bandaid over a problem that needs a far more holistic remedy than simply forcing arbitrary micromanagement of food can provide.  Using methods argued in Class Warfare, you solve the luxury problem, and provide a far better solution to this problem than mere food fussiness provides.

Third, you're assuming that the only way to make spices or the like valuable is to make them demanded by dwarves who have never tasted them... which incidentally directly contradicts that statement you made earlier that dwarves should only demand foods that are available to their civ.  Food or nutrition rewrites, as well as Class Warfare, can easily make spices valuable for social reasons, much like how Tea became a cultural mark of status more than a necessity in England, leading to its adoption. 

As long as people reject the assumptions your argument is based upon, and by inference, the goal you are attempting to achieve, nobody is going to agree with your conclusions.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 07:27:42 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2016, 03:55:43 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Getting dwarves happy should be "hard" in that if you are limited by the game, you might not be able to do it. Sieges, famines, nobles, all these things can make dwarves unhappy.

But it should not be hard in the sense of micromanagement. If your dwarves automatically bargain for their favorite foods, you don't have to do a thing! But when a siege comes, and they can't eat locusts drizzled with peanut glaze, they get unhappy.

Now that that's over, the problem is mostly this: how do we determine how "hard" (in the sense of in-game-hard) food needs should be? And should one part of the several happy-balancing-acts be enough?

Take, for instance, a fortress where there is nothing to eat but plump helmets and dwarven wine. Dwarves should, by all means, be unhappy. This gets an F. (If there's a siege, they might be unhappy because siege, but more okay with boring food, basically dulling their happiness. Think "doesn't care about anything," but a really weak form. But that's another suggestion entirely.)

But how about this? A fortress where there is nothing but vegetables and fruits and their alcohols. That should also be boring, but at least there's some variety. Pumpkins and apples and rutabaga, yum! This gets a D+ or a C or something.

How about where there's only one type of vegetable, one type of meat, one type of grain, etc. That's getting better! But there's only so many ways you can mix that up, and with only one kind of bread, one kind of roast, etc., recipes themselves will be more boring. Maybe a C+ or a B-.

How about a place where there's only cheap stuff. Every kind of vegetable you can imagine, and so on for meats and grains and fruits. But only if it's cheap! This gets a B or a B+, because dwarves should be fairly happy.

But if none of them like the foods there, it might go back down to a B- or a C+, because part of what makes the "cheap foods place" okay is how maybe I can't have the expensive fillet thing I like, but I can have the cheap roast I like.

And if there's everything in the world but stuff you like (geez, somebody has a vendetta), then that might be a B+ or an A-. Because I'm fine with not having expensive liked foods often, but if I could never have peanuts, or ice cream, or peaches, then I might be a little unhappy.

Every kind of food one can imagine? That should always get an A+.

Sounds good? So in order then, the important parts of food happiness are:

  • Variety within a particular type of food.
  • Variety in general. That is, any kind of variance in food at all.
  • Variety of types themselves. Not just veggies, but grains and meat, etc.
  • Expensive foods and likes. (Depending on the dwarf's preferences and attributes, they might prefer unliked expensive foods over liked cheap foods.)

If you disagree with my placement of "variety of types" and "variety within types", ask yourself: which would you rather have? "Only ever veggies" or "one type of veggies, one type of grains, etc."? I think most people would prefer the "boring types" over "always veggies."

The effects of these parts of food happiness should be adjustable by attributes.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2016, 05:18:17 pm »

Well, you're cutting it in a different direction from the current needs system by pointing towards a generic variation based one rather than an individualized item/group desire one. I don't necessarily disagree with that in general, but I think there's a place for individual likes and dislikes as well.

If dorfs are like many children, they'd be happy to eat plump helmets 7 days a week 3 times a day if plump helmets happened to be their favorite food. If they're slightly more mature they have a fairly small range of known things they stick to, with a limited willingness to try something new. If they're like mature adults they'd like their favorites rotated among, but won't mind trying new stuff once in a while. Novelty seekers would try anything that's new for quite a while before returning back to the safe harbor of known favorites (old or recent) to renew their novelty seeking strength.
We might call this a novelty spectrum, or whatever other descriptive term we can come up with. Depending on an individual's location on this spectrum familiarity/novelty of a food may add a positive or negative modifier to the food food satisfaction.

Similarly, some, at least humans, place a higher value on how expensive the food is than what it actually tastes like, and I would guess it would be fairly common for nobility to want to ensure nobody else get something fancier (and if sufficiently high on this snob scale it might be preferable to eat the masterworks spinach and liver lavish meal while hating both spinach and liver, than a competently cooked lavish meal based on their favorite pork).

You may also have a preference strength gradient where a sharp gradient means only the favorites will provide satisfaction (the current system basically has a vertical gradient), with a sharp drop off in satisfaction the further from the favorites you get, while others may get a decent satisfaction from a fairly broad range. The first character doesn't care whether it's spinach or pork, since it's not beef, and so it uninspiring, which a second one would be fairly content with pork, even if beef is a favorite.

Mix a number of spectra with a number of taste categories and you'll get a fairly complex landscape with some dorfs that are easy to please, and some which will be dissatisfied with the food almost regardless of what you do (currently most of them end up in the last category).
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2016, 07:17:45 pm »

Overall, I quite agree with you, PatrikLundell!

Well, you're cutting it in a different direction from the current needs system by pointing towards a generic variation based one rather than an individualized item/group desire one. I don't necessarily disagree with that in general, but I think there's a place for individual likes and dislikes as well.

Of course. I was mostly considering the effects on the population; there is definitely room to expand more on the individual aspects.

If dorfs are like many children, they'd be happy to eat plump helmets 7 days a week 3 times a day if plump helmets happened to be their favorite food. If they're slightly more mature they have a fairly small range of known things they stick to, with a limited willingness to try something new. If they're like mature adults they'd like their favorites rotated among, but won't mind trying new stuff once in a while. Novelty seekers would try anything that's new for quite a while before returning back to the safe harbor of known favorites (old or recent) to renew their novelty seeking strength.
We might call this a novelty spectrum, or whatever other descriptive term we can come up with. Depending on an individual's location on this spectrum familiarity/novelty of a food may add a positive or negative modifier to the food food satisfaction.

Hmm, that's interesting.
  • If a dwarf prefers something, they should have a modifier to the "lack of variety" variable. Basically, most people wouldn't want a year of their favorite food, but they'd be fine having a bunch of it for a month. (A rather useless suggestion: if you eat too much of a favorite food, it's not favorite anymore for a few weeks? if yo continue eating it, maybe even detested and for longer.) Favorite foods? Maybe. But most people's favorite foods don't cover enough range to be healthy, so that's moot.
  • That's given me a new idea - perhaps you tend to prefer something that you have eaten much before? Personally, my favorite foods are ones that I have eaten much before, and come from my culture, but that's one hell of a biased sample. If I haven't eaten it, it wouldn't be on my list! Still, a civilization of predominantly meat-eaters would tend to raise meat-liking children, and so on. This would technically require a giant overhaul of preferences, though, so a "hidden" preference that is revealed when you eat it would be better and probably a little more realistic.
  • I think that some preferences should have more weight than others. I totally agree with your concept of a comfort zone of foods, and a cycle between all these foods. Over a year, I probably eat 50 types of dinner-meals, and only 15-20 of them are more than just "I ate it once at a fancy place". So I think that invisibly, dwarves should prefer some foods over others, and when possible, would go into a "loop" of foods. (Not actually a loop so much as a string that repeats individual portions. Loop implies ABCDEABCDEABCDE and I mean more of a ABCDCBEBACBEACCCBAE.)
  • I think that this should definitely vary by the dwarf (whether they like new foods or familiar foods).

Similarly, some, at least humans, place a higher value on how expensive the food is than what it actually tastes like, and I would guess it would be fairly common for nobility to want to ensure nobody else get something fancier (and if sufficiently high on this snob scale it might be preferable to eat the masterworks spinach and liver lavish meal while hating both spinach and liver, than a competently cooked lavish meal based on their favorite pork).

Exactly my thought. It should modify, then, both their "chance of grabbing" and "chance of happiness", but maybe not the latter so much as the former? They might prefer to eat the masterwork liver, but not really like it as much as the pork.

You may also have a preference strength gradient where a sharp gradient means only the favorites will provide satisfaction (the current system basically has a vertical gradient), with a sharp drop off in satisfaction the further from the favorites you get, while others may get a decent satisfaction from a fairly broad range. The first character doesn't care whether it's spinach or pork, since it's not beef, and so it uninspiring, which a second one would be fairly content with pork, even if beef is a favorite.

That sounds like my previous idea! Great minds think alike (or I'm just shamelessly ripping you off :P).

Mix a number of spectra with a number of taste categories and you'll get a fairly complex landscape with some dorfs that are easy to please, and some which will be dissatisfied with the food almost regardless of what you do (currently most of them end up in the last category).

...Perfect!

The problem with some of these ideas is that most dwarves would basically be the same: just give them a plate of steaming liver every day if that's what they like (one suggestion) or a bunch of vegetables and grains and meats every day (my first suggestion), and they'll be happy as a clam.

But if you have tradition-preserving, novelty-seeking, tolerance for change, and food-craving all affecting the dwarf's needs, as well as their flavor spectrum and preference gradients, and you might have one dwarf happy while the other tantrums. Which is rather ‼FUN‼, but also somewhat intended.

That is, right now, you'd have the population itself shifting in happiness as the situation gets worse: they'd all think the same thing, and do the same stuff, adjusted only by stress resistance. You could almost model it by abstracting it all away!

But this way, you'll have Urist tantrum when his goat cheese is taken away, while Lokum will be fine as long as he can have one of the following: liver roast, pineapple skewers, and quarry bush biscuits, and Teruk the soldier will eat almost anything without complaining. It would create a bell curve for food happiness, adjusted by the food situation only by moving up and down! Wonderful!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 07:27:28 pm by Dozebôm Lolumzalìs »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2016, 10:14:09 pm »

Getting dwarves happy should be "hard" in that if you are limited by the game, you might not be able to do it. Sieges, famines, nobles, all these things can make dwarves unhappy.

Well, I like to compare what we have now to the system in the Sierra City-Building games, where houses upgraded based upon a set of fulfilled needs.  The first few needs are water and food, but then, you soon need to have fountain water delivery systems, rather than simply being located near-ish a well.  A mid-tier house could get by with access to either a physician or a mortuary, but a high-tier house needs both.  Higher-tier housing requires access to more varieties of food, more varieties of entertainment, more different houses of worship, and requires greater "desirability", which is impacted by city layout, (being near smoke-belching industry devalues property,) the quality of nearby housing, and placement of gardens or statues to improve the aesthetics of the address. In Emperor, the China-themed one that came last, salt was a "food" that counted as an additional food variety when added to food, but couldn't be eaten on its own.  (That is, if you have fish, rice, and salt, you have "three food varieties", but zero food varieties with salt, alone.)  The most you could have in one granary was four types of food plus salt, so salt was mandatory for the best food variety (and therefore, the highest-class citizenry).  Since you had a distinction between upper classes (massive tax base) and lower classes (the only people who worked industries), you could also purposefully segregate your food supply if certain types of food were scarce.  (You might have salt mines, vegetables, rice, and beef in abundance, but wheat has to be imported, so noodles are reserved for the upper classes.)

The preferences we've had in the past has always basically been a placeholder put in as a lead-up to a more sophisticated simulation of dwarven emotions and desires.  They just like nickle and limestone and star sapphires and cups and doors and pond turtle meat and strawberry wine and cows for their haunting moos and despise cave lobster.  No rhyme no reason, just draw one item out of a hat for each type of thing.  That sort of system is never going to produce the sort of sane set of (real) human-like desires such as really wanting a dimple-dye-blue cotton dress because they're the fashion statement of the season.  That's partly what I went into the whole notion of Class Warfare to fix, to set up a system where dwarves start desiring luxury goods as status symbols.

Basically, I'm not that fond of the notion of a favorite food to start with, and think the whole system being rewritten from the ground up would be a good start.  I'd like to see something like dwarves demanding different amounts of variety based upon their hedonism or adventureousness personality scores, like PatrikLundell is saying, and I think you can't really start talking about a dwarven gourmand that wants to try out every form of red meat to see which one is really his favorite until you can code into the game which meat is red meat, much less the difference between a guy who likes kangaroo meat because he's tried them all, and he thinks it has the right hint of gameness versus a dwarf who just was born liking kangaroo meat.

I again have to think the better way of doing this is the somewhat more complex way of setting up "flavor profiles", and having dwarves with more than one preferred target flavor.  That way, you can have a dwarf who's "all plump helmets all the time", and one whose comfort zone is beef, eggs, chicken, and dwarven syrup, and doesn't like going outside that, but wouldn't mind having to live on just two of those four. Another more adventurous dwarf might ask for a new flavor every day, at least, to the limits of how much memory the game will devote to it. (Maybe cycling back every month wouldn't be so bad.)

I'd also like to see, in Class Warfare style, the notion of "fashionable" foods. Different foods in real life have different social meanings associated with them.  To this day, humans tend to consider meat to be a "centerpiece" of a meal, and meat-eating is a social event to be shared with family, while fruit is more of a "snack" food that can be eaten alone. This dates back to hunter-gatherer times, when small hauls of foraged food could be eaten alone, but bringing down a deer meant not only sharing the kill, but also basking in the glory of having provided for the clan.

Red meat in particular also carries the notion of being a "manly food".  Just look at any Hardee's commercial, or those crazy Japanese burgers where they make Big Macs with 12 hamburger patties. They market these exclusively to men as "manly foods" because "real men eat beef with bacon on top". Spicy foods often are advertised in a similar fashion - eating something spicy is portrayed as a test of manliness. By comparison, I remember Wendy's unveiling its new Summer menu by having thin late-teen women with immaculate hair come up to the counter going "I think I'll have the pita" while talking about getting into shape for swimsuit season... (To say nothing of Coca-Cola's "we are old-time Americana" versus Pepsi's perpetual "we are the hip new generation" ad wars.) These aren't individual born-with-this-desire-for-red-panda-meat concepts where everyone's a totally unique snowflake, these are cultural pressures telling people what they should think when they eat certain things. 

Black tea, after all, is not native to England, but it became a mandatory part of entering the burgeoning British middle class for a reason. Tea was not just a drink, it was a social event, and it also involved showing off your tea set, which would of course be silver or porcelain and show off how you'd climbed far enough up the social ladder to be able to afford something so expensive.
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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2016, 11:41:14 pm »

Born preferences that are hidden until eaten would do the trick. They'd also be much simpler to code.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2016, 01:06:33 am »

Born preferences that are hidden until eaten would do the trick. They'd also be much simpler to code.

That does nothing to solve any of the problems associated with being born with some random thing people were born to love, and if players are actually supposed to meet those demands, making the demands completely unknown makes it far worse.  You're literally asking players to supply every possible food on the off chance that one of them might be the target. 

I don't know about you, but my response to such a thing would be using DF Hack to just plain cheat and maximize their needs counter every year, because screw that noise!
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2016, 03:28:59 am »

Flavor profiles and preferred items with distance gradients are basically the same thing described in different ways. In order to determine the distance between one item and the next you need to place them in a flavor multi dimensional matrix, so Giant Fly Brain is another way of saying (one of) the preference points is (230, 34, 48, 94, 38) or whatever. If the player is to understand what Urist likes, I think it would have to be in the form if ranking of items (you might describe it as (Red Spinach: 97%, Broccoli: 87%,...), (Giant Fly Brain: 98%, Giant Mantis Brain: 97%, Cow Brain: 76%,...).

The overall fortress snob gradient should probably be a parameter tied to starting scenarios (I wouldn't mind starting scenarios working a bit like world generation, i.e. a scenario is simple embark, while advanced embark would open up a number of parameter so you can tweak the starting scenario to your liking (A prison colony for fallen oligarchs, mafia bosses, and dictators would probably have an extremely high focus on real and apparent status among the inmates, with a rather limited access to luxury items).
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2016, 06:56:36 am »

No! The point, NW_Kohaku, is that preferences would no longer be a binary! There will be at least some foods in your fortress that they like. Furthermore, if a food is in their culture, dwarves can be expected to have eaten it before, so native food preferences would not be hidden. Besides, preferences wouldn't matter quite so much as variety. If you have a small variety, they will find their favorite foods out of the bunch and then settle into a stable cycle. Some dwarves will be happier with their cycle than others, but almost none of them would be unhappy, as long as you have a reasonable food supply variety (not just plump helmets and quarry bushes. Even if that is the case, though, recipes could provide the variety these dwarves would crave.)

I agree that it would be awesome to have preferences arise over time (if that's what you said), but it's so much more feasible to have them rolled at the beginning of a dwarf's lifetime, then revealed as they are eaten. It's almost as realistic, too, as I'm pretty sure that if I moved to some other country, I would still crave my old favorite foods from my old country more. I think that would even be the case for my 4-year-old brother.

I also think that preferences should be weighted toward stuff the dwarves have access to, to model the tendency for people to prefer the foods of their culture.

IDEA: cultures have icky spots on the flavor charts! They think that type of food is disgusting.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2016, 08:55:02 am »

I'm not saying that preferences should arise over time, I'm saying that hiding that information from the player until they happen to find the food a dwarf likes accomplishes nothing but punishing the player for not having the precognition to satisfy a need you haven't been told how to satisfy.

Basically, yes, there may be some foreign food somewhere out there that is your perfect "soul-mate food" you haven't discovered yet, but if it's something really sweet and a bit salty, you probably have the hint that you really like candy going for it.  Rather than trying to eat pickled turnips to see if that's "the one", you're probably going to stick to the candy vendors.

Saying "this dwarf likes foods that are very sweet and somewhat salty" actually helps guide players who are looking to satisfy that kind of desire.

And yes, Patrik, I realize we're talking about the same thing with different names.

It's probably just my bias because I'm invested in the idea already, but I think that Class Warfare concepts are the best way of handling food snobbery, rather than starting scenario (although they can influence one another), since the notion behind Class Warfare is that the outlook of fortress dwarves change over time as the fortress goes from being an outpost concerned primarily with communal survival to a city concerned more with satisfying personal ambitions and desires as it matures.  This means early fortress dwarves will not complain about a lack of food diversity, while dwellers of mature fortresses will become decadent gourmands demanding giant olm livers pickled no less than three years in salted strawberry vinegar.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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Improved Farming
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2016, 10:32:01 am »

I guess I'll have to take a look at this Class Warfare thing (yes, I saw the sig link).
And I suspect you mean gourmet rather than gourmand (the latter is a glutton concerned with volume, while the former is obsessed by refinement and quality [provided it's not just a snob out to one-up everyone else and pretend to be a gourmet, while really just going for what's hardest to get/most expensive, and possibly weirdest to conceive of]. It's possible to be both, though.
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Food need preferences now too strong
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2016, 10:38:14 am »

I'm not saying that preferences should arise over time, I'm saying that hiding that information from the player until they happen to find the food a dwarf likes accomplishes nothing but punishing the player for not having the precognition to satisfy a need you haven't been told how to satisfy.

But the thing is that 1. preferences would no longer be binary and 2. it's fine if you don't know all of Urist's preferences. It's not punishing the player because if the player wants to spend an hour determining Urist's preferences of the highest order, he could. But why? Most dwarves are fine with semi-preferred foods when variety is provided.

I'm revising my suggestion, actually. Perhaps the problem with "lack of variety" isn't that dwarves want variety per se, but if you don't have adequate variety, dwarves will be less likely to find their preferred (or semipreferred) foods in the stockpile of plump helmets (and not much more).

Basically, yes, there may be some foreign food somewhere out there that is your perfect "soul-mate food" you haven't discovered yet, but if it's something really sweet and a bit salty, you probably have the hint that you really like candy going for it.  Rather than trying to eat pickled turnips to see if that's "the one", you're probably going to stick to the candy vendors.

True. How about we combine our ideas? Dwarves have a "preference chart", where foods that are in a certain part are preferred. Dwarves also want variety, though, so to keep them happy they should have foods from different parts of the multi-variable chart. (more like 6D than 2D)

Dwarves will then tend to settle into a "familiar foods" cycle, with the more adventurous dwarves trying new foods and potentially adding them to that cycle.

Saying "this dwarf likes foods that are very sweet and somewhat salty" actually helps guide players who are looking to satisfy that kind of desire.

But that is much too simple! They will like particular spots on the chart. TMI for a player! They should only see some foods that are on the preferred portions of the chart. Maybe they like really sweet, and they like somewhat salty, but they don't like really sweet and somewhat salty - only tiny bit of sweet, quite a bit of salty, and some paprika-like thing mixed in. Too much information, see?

It's probably just my bias because I'm invested in the idea already, but I think that Class Warfare concepts are the best way of handling food snobbery, rather than starting scenario (although they can influence one another), since the notion behind Class Warfare is that the outlook of fortress dwarves change over time as the fortress goes from being an outpost concerned primarily with communal survival to a city concerned more with satisfying personal ambitions and desires as it matures.  This means early fortress dwarves will not complain about a lack of food diversity, while dwellers of mature fortresses will become decadent gourmands demanding giant olm livers pickled no less than three years in salted strawberry vinegar.

I read that one! (a year ago) I agree that my ideas for food snobbery are somewhat undeveloped, and would totally agree with the overall evolution that you are describing. But we also need to consider individual flavor profile semipreferred foods with a variety of positions on the flavor charts! :P I may be overthinking this.

(as to the gourmet/gourmand - now I understand amulets of gourmand! I thought they made food taste good or something.[/DCSS])
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!
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