Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: martinuzz on December 13, 2016, 04:56:57 pm

Title: African news thread
Post by: martinuzz on December 13, 2016, 04:56:57 pm
The former president of Gambia, Yahya Jammeh, refuses to step down, after elections put an end to his 22 year reign, even though at first it looked like he was going to accept the election outcome. On the 2nd of december, he congratulated the winner of the elections.
Within a week however, he changed his stance, and now claims the elections were 'a fraud and unacceptable', a verdict which, by the way, can only be passed by the elections committee, and not by the president.

Personal visits from the presidents of Ghana, Nigeria, Sierra Leone and Liberia, all of whom have already congratulated the new president, have not been able to change his mind.
Gambia is quickly turning into chaos, as militants loyal to the old president are occupying the headquarters of the Gambian election committee, who declared the opposition candidate as the winner of the elections.

Ecowas, the regional coalition of nations including those of the four aforementioned presidents is now seriously considering a joint invasion of Gambia, to chase out the old president and help the new president take control. An Ecowas spokesman declared that a military invasion is 'a realistic solution'.

It wouldn't be the first time that Ecowas intervenes militarily. The last time it did was in the conflict in Sierra Leone at the start of this century. The counrties insisting now that Jammeh respects the election outcome and step down, have been trying hard the last decade to prove that they are becoming more and more democratic.
For instance in Ghana only last week, president John Mahama accepted his election loss and stepped down.
In Nigeria, the current president came to power by defeating the old president in fair elections in 2015. Nigeria is seen as the strongest regional power. It's army is many times larger than the Gambian army. Jammeh will not stay in power long if Ecowas decides to intervene militarily.

And then there's Senegal, which borders Gambia on 3 sides. It is well known that it's democratically elected president has no love for Gambian president Jammeh. Senegalese forces have already been ordered a while ago to concentrate at the Gambian borders.

It's not sure that it needs to come to an invasion though. It depends on Gambia's military. At first it looked like the Gambian army would support the new president, Adama Barrow, but in a later statement, army commander Ousman Badjie says that the army will 'support the president, whomever that may be'.

The past few days, reports have come in from Banjul, and other cities in the small country with 2 million inhabitants, that soldiers are digging trenches.
With his population, old president Jammeh is far from beloved. But the Gambians fear him, knowing that he does not abstain from arresting, torturing and executing his opponents.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on December 13, 2016, 05:00:03 pm
Isn't this the guy who proclaimed that he'd rule for a billion years?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on December 13, 2016, 05:02:16 pm
Correct. And cure Aids. With a banana. At least that's not as lunatic as the regional belief amongst many some uneducated Africans that Aids can be cured by having sex with a baby.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/world/africa/gambia-election-yahya-jammeh-adama-barrow.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/world/africa/gambia-election-yahya-jammeh-adama-barrow.html)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 15, 2016, 09:39:58 am
Quote
When they did, Barrow was declared the winner with 43.3 percent of the vote compared with the incumbent’s 39.6 percent. Taken by surprise — and advised, reportedly by some of his army chiefs, that it was all over — Jammeh bought time by playing the generous loser, all the while plotting his next move.

Exactly what that will be, nobody knows. This, after all, is a man who is said to consult fortunetellers on important matters of state.
Between this and Korea (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/12/14/the-real-reason-gambias-president-isnt-stepping-down-yahya-jammeh/) 2016 truly is the year of meme candidates
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on December 15, 2016, 10:42:49 am
Welcome to post-colonial Africa, folks, enjoy your stay. If things go south, I hope Ecowas steps in. Things were going so well.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: redwallzyl on December 15, 2016, 11:58:34 am
you see this is why term limits are a thing in democratic country's. if you see someone get rid of them they are angling to become a dictator. *cough* Putin *cough*
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Flying Dice on December 15, 2016, 02:29:05 pm
More like this is why a newly democratic country should never fucking ever become a presidential democracy. When you've got no strong democratic tradition and you opt for a system where your head of state and head of government are the same person, it shouldn't be a goddamn surprise when they start backsliding towards authoritarianism.

The U.S. is really goddamn lucky that our early presidents had enough integrity to avoid concentrating too much power, and that Washington had the foresight to establish the unofficial two term limit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on December 16, 2016, 05:01:39 am
Term limits aren't important when your military can step in and remove Prime Minister. More important to have regular elections so the leader can't just call elections whenever they are popular and withhold whenever they are not

More like this is why a newly democratic country should never fucking ever become a presidential democracy. When you've got no strong democratic tradition and you opt for a system where your head of state and head of government are the same person, it shouldn't be a goddamn surprise when they start backsliding towards authoritarianism.

The U.S. is really goddamn lucky that our early presidents had enough integrity to avoid concentrating too much power, and that Washington had the foresight to establish the unofficial two term limit.
This too
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on December 24, 2016, 08:14:34 am
The Ecowas nations have set an ultimatum for Jammeh to step down as a president and transfer power to the new president.
If he hasn't stepped down on the 19th of januari, an army already assembled from the various Ecowas nations will invade Gambia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on December 24, 2016, 08:17:16 am
The Ecowas nations have set an ultimatum for Jammeh to step down as a president and transfer power to the new president.
If he hasn't stepped down on the 19th of januari, an army already assembled from the various Ecowas nations will invade Gambia.

Somehow the West will be blamed for that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on December 24, 2016, 08:21:45 am
The Ecowas nations have set an ultimatum for Jammeh to step down as a president and transfer power to the new president.
If he hasn't stepped down on the 19th of januari, an army already assembled from the various Ecowas nations will invade Gambia.

Somehow the West will be blamed for that.
Doubt it. The West wasn't blamed when ECOWAS stationed a peacekeeping force in Liberia, nor was the West blamed when ECOWAS invaded Sierra Leone to reverse a coup.
ECOWAS involvement is generally seen as 'a good thing'. Not that they're very good at peacekeeping. Liberia is still chaotic. But I suppose it could have been worse. Idem for Sierra Leone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 24, 2016, 08:22:20 am
The Ecowas nations have set an ultimatum for Jammeh to step down as a president and transfer power to the new president.
If he hasn't stepped down on the 19th of januari, an army already assembled from the various Ecowas nations will invade Gambia.
februari
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on December 24, 2016, 08:23:40 am
The Ecowas nations have set an ultimatum for Jammeh to step down as a president and transfer power to the new president.
If he hasn't stepped down on the 19th of januari, an army already assembled from the various Ecowas nations will invade Gambia.
februari
hmm my newspaper says januari
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 24, 2016, 08:24:49 am
yeah, but if thei set off in Januari thei won't arrive any earlier than Februari. Given the logistics involved the current president might have until the idis of Mirch to prepare.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on December 24, 2016, 08:27:11 am
yeah, but if thei set off in Januari thei won't arrive any earlier than Februari. Given the logistics involved the current president might have until the idis of Mirch to prepare.
They have an army ready at the border. Why would it take them a month to arrive?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: ChairmanPoo on December 24, 2016, 10:23:37 am
 One does not simpli walk into Gambia. Its black gates are guarded bi more than just soldiers. There is evil there that does not sleep. The great Jammeh is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire, ash, and dust. The veri air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten-thousand men could you do this. It is folli.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on December 24, 2016, 10:43:15 am
yeah, but if thei set off in Januari thei won't arrive any earlier than Februari. Given the logistics involved the current president might have until the idis of Mirch to prepare.
They have an army ready at the border. Why would it take them a month to arrive?
I think they might be mocking your mispronunciation of the word "January".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on December 24, 2016, 11:45:08 am
Oh heh. I missed the army of grammar nazys at my own border. My bad.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on December 24, 2016, 02:09:14 pm
The Ecowas nations have set an ultimatum for Jammeh to step down as a president and transfer power to the new president.
If he hasn't stepped down on the 19th of januari, an army already assembled from the various Ecowas nations will invade Gambia.

Somehow the West will be blamed for that.

Don't think the West will even notice, TBH. Africa 'runs' itself a lot without the West getting involved at all, you just probably only notice when they do on account of being a Westerner. :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on December 25, 2016, 04:47:38 pm
The Ecowas nations have set an ultimatum for Jammeh to step down as a president and transfer power to the new president.
If he hasn't stepped down on the 19th of januari, an army already assembled from the various Ecowas nations will invade Gambia.

Somehow the West will be blamed for that.

Don't think the West will even notice, TBH. Africa 'runs' itself a lot without the West getting involved at all, you just probably only notice when they do on account of being a Westerner. :P

Probably, yeah.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on January 17, 2017, 04:29:45 am
Crunch time is two days away, and it looks like it's going to take the form of Ecowas stepping in (https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2017-01-16-analysis-ecowas-is-ready-to-deliver-on-its-gambian-threats/#.WH3jLVwbKDk).

Unless Jammeh has a sudden attack of conscience, anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on January 17, 2017, 04:42:55 am
The African troops will bring freedom to Gambia

and unlike with USA, it's not just an euphemism
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 17, 2017, 11:11:54 am
Oh heh. I missed the army of grammar nazys at my own border. My bad.
You and your weird dutch spellings.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: TheBiggerFish on January 19, 2017, 01:08:54 am
Huh.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on January 19, 2017, 01:28:32 am
Oh hey, isn't today the day the glorious African liberators will set free the poor black people from under the yoke of a bloodthirsty maniacal unelected dictator?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Strife26 on January 19, 2017, 01:33:53 am
Oh hey, isn't today the day the glorious African liberators will set free the poor black people from under the yoke of a bloodthirsty maniacal unelected dictator?

That requires a few dozen totally former Legionnaires to be successful.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 19, 2017, 04:12:35 am
http://www.theonion.com/article/nigeria-elects-black-president-446

Quote
ABUJA, NIGERIA–In a historic triumph for Nigeria's African-African community, Bilikisu Adewale, a 49-year-old black man, was elected president Monday.

(Photo: Bilikisu Adewale waves to supporters after becoming the next black man ever to lead Nigeria.)

"Today is a great day for the people of Nigeria," Adewale told a cheering crowd in his 30-minute acceptance speech. "But even more so, today represents a tremendous victory for this nation's black citizens, who came to the polls in full force to put one of their own in power."

"I am overwhelmed," Adewale added. "This is truly precedented."

Addressing the largely black crowd, Adewale, who served as Nigeria's Foreign Minister from 1993 to 1998, pledged to defend the interests of the nation's sizable black community. Among his chief campaign promises was to increase funding for schools in Nigeria's inner cities, outer cities, and middle cities–areas with a high concentration of blacks.
...
"Yes, this election is a great step forward for black Nigerians," Adewale said. "But there is much work to be done: A shocking 50 percent of our nation's blacks earn an income below the national average. The ever-present specter of black-on-black violence continues to loom over our communities. Our prison population is virtually 100 percent black." 

Couldn't help it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on January 19, 2017, 04:20:59 am
The new president will be sworn into office at 4PM today, in the embassy of Gambia in Dakar.
Ecowas countries have issued a formal statement and informed the UN that they do no longer recongnize Jammeh as president, and will take military action if he does not go.
It was expected by many that Ecowas forces would invade last night, but they haven't yet. Nigeria did move strike fighters to Senegal's capital Dakar.

Meanwhile, the commander of the Gambian forces has said that if Ecowas invades he is "not going to involve my men in a retarded battle", while making a sign of surrender.

Thousands of tourists have been evacuated, amongst whom 1500 Dutch tourists (wow, if there's 1500 from my small country alone, I wonder how many 10s of thousands of tourists there were in total, to evacuate).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on January 19, 2017, 04:23:43 am
http://www.theonion.com/article/nigeria-elects-black-president-446

Quote
A shocking 50 percent of our nation's blacks earn an income below the national average.
When will people learn the difference between "average" and "median"?!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2017, 04:36:10 am
That's the onion
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Neonivek on January 19, 2017, 04:40:42 am
Quote
A shocking 50 percent of our nation's blacks earn an income below the national average.

OHHH NO! That is... surprisingly normal.

Ok Ok I am intentionally misinterpreting. Since a lot of people intentionally misinterpret averages all the time to mean a perfectly spread out array (Like IQ often is interpreted to mean). So what you would likely want it something like 20 percent below, 60 percent on or close to average, and 20 percent above.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on January 19, 2017, 04:56:17 am
That's the onion
Just because it's satire doesn't mean it should use wrong definitions of the words
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: IcyTea31 on January 19, 2017, 07:15:29 am
Finnish travel agencies are still doing business as usual and haven't said if they're going to cancel reservations or evacuate. They have advised tourists not to stray far from their hotels, however. This is what Finnish media reports on about the crisis: not about the 1,8 million locals, but about the couple hundred tourists.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on January 19, 2017, 07:57:44 am
Finnish travel agencies are still doing business as usual and haven't said if they're going to cancel reservations or evacuate. They have advised tourists not to stray far from their hotels, however. This is what Finnish media reports on about the crisis: not about the 1,8 million locals, but about the couple hundred tourists.

To be fair, the 1.8 millions locals probably don't read Finnish newspapers so don't need advice from them.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 19, 2017, 08:03:15 am
When will people learn the difference between "average" and "median"?!

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/average

Quote
A single number that represents a set of numbers. Means, medians, and modes are kinds of averages; usually, however, the term average refers to a mean.

"Usually" but not always. Average can be used for , "mean, median or mode". As in "average man on the street".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on January 19, 2017, 08:15:01 am
http://www.theonion.com/article/nigeria-elects-black-president-446

Quote
A shocking 50 percent of our nation's blacks earn an income below the national average.
When will people learn the difference between "average" and "median"?!

but you got that wrong. Median and average are synonyms. It's only in colloquial use that average means "mean".
Really? Well, I guess it's different for you, because in Russian language, "average" and "mean" are literally the same word. For instance, last time I"ve heard, "average salaries" in my university are on the level of 140 000 commiebucks, while the median ones are about... 15 000-20 000 or so.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 19, 2017, 08:21:38 am
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/average

noun
1.
a quantity, rating, or the like that represents or approximates an arithmetic mean:
Her golf average is in the 90s. My average in science has gone from B to C this semester.
2.
a typical amount, rate, degree, etc.; norm.
3.
Statistics. arithmetic mean.


http://www.dictionary.com/browse/median?s=t
noun
1.
Arithmetic, Statistics. the middle number in a given sequence of numbers, taken as the average of the two middle numbers when the sequence has an even number of numbers:


Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 19, 2017, 08:55:09 am
You've excluded some of the definitions of average however. It's been taught at schools for decades in maths classes that "average" can refer to mean, median or mode. I took my definition from the same source as you, it does include the reference to median being a possible meaning.

If you counter-argument is that average cannot mean median, under any circumstances, then it's not enough to show that mean is the "usual" meaning. "X cannot be Y" is a false statement if you can find even a single X which is Y. It doesn't matter if almost all X's are not Y, even a single counter-example disproves the statement.

Here's the Oxford dictionary definition:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/average
Quote
1) A number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.

Here's the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary definition:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average
Quote
Definition of average
1a) :  a single value (such as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values

In each case, "median" is referred to in their primary definition. Here's more detail from wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average
First, you'll note that mean, median and mode are all listed in this page. This is the introduction

Quote
In colloquial language, an average is the sum of a list of numbers divided by the number of numbers in the list. In mathematics and statistics, this would be called the arithmetic mean. In statistics, mean, median, and mode are all known as measures of central tendency.

So in other words it's improper colloquial usage to use "average" to only refer to the mean, because that creates an ambiguity with the usage of the term in statistics, which is where the process originated.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2017, 09:48:57 am
Quote
A shocking 50 percent of our nation's blacks earn an income below the national average.
OHHH NO! That is... surprisingly normal.
That's the onion

That's the onion
Just because it's satire doesn't mean it should use wrong definitions of the words
The point of irony is that you are using words to mean something that they are not
It's the onion

Ok Ok I am intentionally misinterpreting. Since a lot of people intentionally misinterpret averages all the time to mean a perfectly spread out array (Like IQ often is interpreted to mean). So what you would likely want it something like 20 percent below, 60 percent on or close to average, and 20 percent above.
Did you really not blink an eye at winning the African-African vote

It's the onion

They make funny
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on January 19, 2017, 10:01:04 am
That's the onion
Just because it's satire doesn't mean it should use wrong definitions of the words
The point of irony is that you are using words to mean something that they are not
It's the onion
Their report is technically fully factually correct, if you assume that "average" means "median". I know that some people currently like to write outrageous lies and then call it "satire" to cover their asses from libel law, but I thought that you, as a supposedly highly cultured British person, would know the difference between the low-class humour and the high-class sensible chuckle.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 19, 2017, 10:27:48 am
Well there's another point, and that's to do with how wages are calculated. Almost always you hear about "median weekly earnings" not arithmetic mean earnings, where e.g. comparing the wage gap between men and women.

e.g. google "usa average income" and there is only 1 out of 10 google hits that use arithmetic mean, which is a USA today news story. Every other link highlights the word "median" as a synonym of average (except for one, which says average income per profession, but then gives you the median income anyway). So what that suggests that in the context of income, it's much more common for sources to cite medians rather than means as the "average". e.g. when they talk about the "wage gap" they say "The average woman's unadjusted annual salary has been cited as 78% to 82% of that of the average man's". But here they mean "median" income.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on January 19, 2017, 10:42:47 am
All very interesting, but none of it to do with Africa.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Parsely on January 19, 2017, 10:45:43 am
That's the onion
Just because it's satire doesn't mean it should use wrong definitions of the words
It's satire. It's supposed to make people look stupid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 19, 2017, 11:00:58 am
All very interesting, but none of it to do with Africa.

I prefer to hammer these semantic disputes as soon as they arise. Leaving them dangling would mean they just flare up in another thread some time in the future.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on January 19, 2017, 11:17:07 am
The UN Security Council is convening about whether they will support Ecowas invading Gambia
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 19, 2017, 11:30:57 am
<snip>

Ewoks are invading Gambia. UFP are deciding how to respond.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on January 19, 2017, 11:42:52 am
<snip>
Ewoks are invading Gambia?

The Economic Community of West African States. (http://www.ecowas.int/)

Very big on the whole 'not being a dictator' thing. At some point, I believe they almost passed a resolution-type-thing barring third terms for presidents of any of their members. Blocked, IIRC, only by The Gambia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on January 19, 2017, 11:44:01 am
Lolwut Reelya.

And here, I was thinking that Africa was getting no respect even in a thread dedicated to it due to the Euro derail.

Totally not bashing anybody, honest. :)
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 19, 2017, 12:21:43 pm
Their report is technically fully factually correct, if you assume that "average" means "median". I know that some people currently like to write outrageous lies and then call it "satire" to cover their asses from libel law, but I thought that you, as a supposedly highly cultured British person, would know the difference between the low-class humour and the high-class sensible chuckle.
It's the onion

They don't do reports

They don't do factually correct

They do stories where assholes move into towns full of assholes (http://www.theonion.com/article/asshole-moves-part-city-where-all-assholes-live-55074)

The whole thing is using Nigerian elections to make fun of how Americans see all foreign politics in the lens of American politics
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on January 19, 2017, 02:29:10 pm
It has begun, Ecowas forces have entered Gambia.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on January 19, 2017, 02:36:17 pm
Welp, here goes. This shouldnt be too messy.

Edit: I see the UN is supporting Barrow (the newly inaugurated president), as is at least the chairman of the AU Comission.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 19, 2017, 02:42:05 pm
I like that the new president used to work as the security guard at a department store in London. So that guy who you used to have to show your bags to on the way out now has his own country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on January 19, 2017, 02:45:19 pm
...I'm really not sure how to take that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on January 19, 2017, 02:47:02 pm
Imagine going to Gambia on vacation in a few years, and suddenly being arrested by special forces and brought before the president. "I remember you, you were that guy that nicked a pair of socks and got away!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: IronyOwl on January 19, 2017, 09:33:05 pm
As the black bag comes off your head, you find yourself in a shadowy room filled with men in suits. A single figure behind an imposing desk begins to speak.

"Who's a minimum wage door ornament now?!"
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on January 20, 2017, 04:40:47 am
Senegalese troops are in, and the former President was given a deadline of today, noon to leave.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on January 21, 2017, 04:52:17 pm
After two extended deadlines, Jammeh held a speech announcing he will step down, and saying no blood needs to be shed. He's most likely going into exile in Mauritania.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 21, 2017, 05:00:05 pm
...I'm really not sure how to take that.
Fortune changes like the turning of hands
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Baffler on January 21, 2017, 08:46:57 pm
After two extended deadlines, Jammeh held a speech announcing he will step down, and saying no blood needs to be shed. He's most likely going into exile in Mauritania.

Good. It would be sad to see anyone die over this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: redwallzyl on January 22, 2017, 09:37:49 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-38714007

and he stole all the countries money...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 22, 2017, 11:21:03 pm
[Swiss Bankers Subtly Intensify]
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 22, 2017, 11:32:05 pm
$11 million is small fry.

Iraqi $9 billion missing that Dick Cheney's hand-picked auditors somehow lost. I'll spoiler it as it's not on topic, but it's a good read and puts stealing measly millions in a global perspective.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seriously, I'd be embarrassed for my country if my "dictator for 22 years" only managed to steal a measly $11 million. Halliburton's Iraq contracts plus the missing $9B under Cheney's watch is $34 billion within 4 years of taking office. Try harder, Africa.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on January 23, 2017, 07:13:37 am
That's like 1.2% of GDP he stole though. And that's just over the past two weeks, not over 22 years. Hid personnal fortune isn't exactly public, but he apparently own multi-million properties around Europe, and some estimate his fortune (but with precious little source) at over 1 billion USD, which is more than the country's GDP.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on January 23, 2017, 07:31:19 am
PTW
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on January 23, 2017, 12:36:00 pm
Posting to Dito
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on January 23, 2017, 12:48:54 pm
With 1 billion USD, he could still cause quite some trouble in the future, if he doesn't intend to retire quietly in Mauritania. For one thing, raising an army there should be cheap enough, with Mauritania still having legal slave trade.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on January 23, 2017, 12:57:01 pm
An army of slaves < an army of FREE AFRICAN PEOPLE
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on January 23, 2017, 01:06:13 pm
How is he going to be bow to invade without first invading Senegal, the giant country which surrounds his country on all sides except the coast and which has already invaded his country once to oust him?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on January 23, 2017, 01:09:04 pm
Swimming lessons for the kids, obviously
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Strife26 on January 23, 2017, 02:43:47 pm
Using the tramp freighter Toscana, of course.  [/semiobscure]
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 23, 2017, 02:48:46 pm
An army of slaves < an army of FREE AFRICAN PEOPLE
(in Valyrian)Tell Sergarr that an eunuch who is cut young will never have the brute strength of one of your Druzhina cavalry, this is true. A bull is strong as well, but bulls die every day in the fighting pits. A girl of nine killed one not three days past in Jothiel's Pit. The Unsullied have something better than strength, tell him. They have discipline. We fight in the fashion of the Old Empire, yes. They are the lockstep legions of Old Ghis come again, absolutely obedient, absolutely loyal, and utterly without fear.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Aklyon on January 23, 2017, 05:12:44 pm
Januari looks kinda neat actually, even if it is a typo.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 23, 2017, 05:33:01 pm
It wasn't a typo exactly ... that's how the Dutch spell January.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on January 23, 2017, 05:58:09 pm
Using the tramp freighter Toscana, of course.  [/semiobscure]

I only know of all these references because of that link you linked many ages ago.

Assuming these are all references to the same thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Aklyon on January 23, 2017, 06:05:21 pm
It wasn't a typo exactly ... that's how the Dutch spell January.
Even better then. Its like honour.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on January 23, 2017, 06:09:37 pm
Bah. The proper way of spelling it is januari, obviously. Down with the capital class!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Aklyon on January 23, 2017, 06:46:29 pm
Bah. The proper way of spelling it is januari, obviously. Down with the capital class!
januarI?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Teneb on January 23, 2017, 06:57:01 pm
Bah. The proper way of spelling it is januari, obviously. Down with the capital class!
januarI?
No, no. "januar I", as in: a regnal name.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Helgoland on January 23, 2017, 09:31:25 pm
PTW.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on January 24, 2017, 07:11:14 am
PTW.

You're coming late to the party, friend. :p
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Helgoland on January 24, 2017, 07:20:24 am
What, Africa ceased to exist?

Sure, the Gambia situation is over, but I thought this was going to be a more general type of thread...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Aklyon on January 24, 2017, 04:33:03 pm
Only if someone brings some more african news, I'd guess. Its certainly got the title to be a general thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: IronyOwl on January 24, 2017, 07:56:50 pm
In non-news, everything continues to be terrible in Zimbabwe as 93 year old tyrant Robert Mugabe persistently refuses to die and magically transform the country into a prosperous, functioning democracy. Also, several decades of rampant mismanagement and cronyism might have affected things slightly, but that's less elegant to blame than That One Asshole.

Also, presumably fewer people are declaring "the government" as akin to Jesus:
Quote
In an interview last week, the ruling party’s national youth leader, Kudzai Chipanga, declared that Mugabe’s birthday, which falls on February 21, should not be treated like an ordinary day, but given the same status as Christmas Day, which is celebrated annually by Christians as Jesus Christ’s birthday.

“To us, February 21 is not just a day. To us, it is a special day we treat in the same manner Christians treat December 25, the birthday of Jesus Christ. I don’t want to be blasphemous, but in my humble view, President Mugabe is second to Jesus Christ. He is our saviour, so his birthday means a lot for us the youths of Zimbabwe,” he said.

Chipanga went into overdrive, saying Mugabe, approaching 93, was also blessed with divine wisdom and was the only person capable of steering Zimbabwe from its current economic mess.

“We will not allow those plotting to take over his post, saying he is old to do so. Look, this is not an age contest that we have at hand, but dealing with wisdom, not just wisdom, divine wisdom for that matter,” he said.
Needless to say, the country was once regarded as a bastion of progress and civilization, before Mugabe n Co took over and gradually ran it into the ground. If you recognize the name, it's probably from the fiasco they had few years ago where inflation rendered their currency worthless. Several times in a row. And then again after they slashed several zeros off to try again.

They finally gave up, and to this day Zimbabwe does not possess its own currency because it cannot be trusted with its own currency. This is, I think, all you really need to know about the general state of things in Zimbabwe, financial or otherwise, and accordingly the connotations of insisting Mugabe is Jesus the Lesser and in possession of Divine Wisdom.

Alternate summary: I'm not sure if this belongs here or the DPRK thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Aklyon on January 24, 2017, 08:51:11 pm
Does the DPRK have a currency?

...Because if it does, I'm not sure if it means its more trustable or if it just does a better job at being terrible.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 24, 2017, 08:58:25 pm
It does, the North Korean won. On the other hand, it's been revalued at least once, and to my understanding many grey and black market activities in NK happen through USD or barter.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on January 24, 2017, 11:10:09 pm
I believe Zim has actually started printing bond notes, which aren't quite actually a currency or some such- I have forgotten the details.

It's a move that has been met with widespread approbation, in anticipation of another hyperinflation debacle.

I also seem to recall Mugabe having seemed slightly less insane over the last months, but I can't remember why.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on January 24, 2017, 11:51:32 pm
Perhaps senility made him forget to be an asshole.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on January 25, 2017, 04:59:18 am

Needless to say, the country was once regarded as a bastion of progress and civilization, before Mugabe n Co took over and gradually ran it into the ground. If you recognize the name, it's probably from the fiasco they had few years ago where inflation rendered their currency worthless. Several times in a row. And then again after they slashed several zeros off to try again.


I don't remember Zimbabwe ever being a bastion of progress and civilization before Mugabe, unless you have a strange fondness for soldiers in really tight shorts hunting guerilla to enforce apartheid.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 25, 2017, 06:25:26 am
Data is always your friend as well

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/zimbabwe/gdp-growth-annual

If you set it to "max" years you can see 1961 - 2017. You'll note that other than the recession in 2002, the growth rate since Mugabe has been about the same as before him. For example, in 2010-2012, Zimbabwe's economy grew at over 10% per annum for a full three years in a row, outstripping China's growth in a relative sense. And if you take 2009-2014, Zimbabwe's relative growth outstripped USA's for a full 6 years straight. It's the kind of stuff they're never going to mention when they do the "media narrative" on a country.

Or if you think GDP growth rates are bullshit, how about picking a random stat such as infant mortality. Looking that up:
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=zi&v=29
You can see that there's been an absolutely amazing drop in infant mortality since 2005 (it dropped by 2/3rds from 2005-2014), which is supposedly the period in which the Zimbabwean economy was melting down and everyone was suffering. Basically, never trust the media about other countries. They'll tell you all about the bad years, but not about the boom that often follows.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on January 25, 2017, 06:38:22 am
Data is always your friend as well

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/zimbabwe/gdp-growth-annual

If you set it to "max" years you can see 1961 - 2017. You'll note that other than the recession in 2002, the growth rate since Mugabe has been about the same as before him.

For example, in 2010-2012, Zimbabwe's economy grew at over 10% per annum for a full three years in a row, outstripping China's growth in a relative sense. And if you take 2009-2014, Zimbabwe's relative growth outstripped USA's for a full 6 years straight. It's the kind of stuff they're never going to mention when they do the "media narrative" on a country.

Comparing the growth rate of a country like Zimbabwe with a country that operate at the technological frontier like the US is never done because it's stupid, not because of some media conspiracy. You also didn't take into account the population growth. GDP since 1980 (When Mugabe came to power) roughly doubled, from 7 billions to 14 billions USD (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/zimbabwe/gdp) (accounting for inflation).  But population also increased, so that GDP per capita (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/zimbabwe/gdp-per-capita) (again, in constant 2015 USD) is actually lower than it was in 1980. It stayed roughly constant at 1200 USD until 2002, then Mugabe fucked up the currency and the GDP per capita fell and is now at about 800 USD.

But yeah, let's blame it on the media narrative.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on January 25, 2017, 06:45:42 am
But things like infant mortality are a better yardstick for overall wellbeing than an artificial money comparison.

Also, the media isolates specific nations even if worse things are happening in a nation they don't care about e.g. if you look at zimbabwe's change in life expectancy, you can see it dropped then rose again, but so did at least three other reference nations that Google brings up on the chart. In fact Botswana's life expectancy nose-dived at the same time as Zimbabwe's but didn't recover. nobody is reporting that.

Basically, a whole slew of African nations had the same thing happen around the same time. Kinda hard to say it's a specific policy of Mugabe to blame, if other nearby non-Mugabe nations also had it happen around the same instant in time.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on January 25, 2017, 07:43:15 am
But things like infant mortality are a better yardstick for overall wellbeing than an artificial money comparison.

Maybe you should not bring up GDP in the first place then. Because right now it looks like you're just shifting the goalpost.
But sure, let's have a look at Zimbabwe infant mortality rate since you're bringing that up. And let's compare it to all its neighbours (Mozambique, South Africa, Botswana, Zambia, Namibia). (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?contextual=default&locations=ZW-BW-MZ-ZM-ZA) Zimbabwe is fifth  of the six, with child mortality rate of 46.6 per 1000 live birth. Only Mozambique is worse. However, let's have a look at the reduction in infant mortality rate since 1980. (Note, I made a mistake, it's data for 2015, not 2016).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Zimbabwe has the lowest rate of reduction since Mugabe came to power, with about 30%. Mozambique is still worse, but reduced its rate by over 70% during the same period.

Also, the media isolates specific nations even if worse things are happening in a nation they don't care about e.g. if you look at zimbabwe's change in life expectancy, you can see it dropped then rose again, but so did at least three other reference nations that Google brings up on the chart. In fact Botswana's life expectancy nose-dived at the same time as Zimbabwe's but didn't recover. nobody is reporting that.

Yeah, the AIDS epidemic was brutal in that region. Thank god anti-aid drugs brought the life expectancy back up. BTW, I suspect the lack of recovery in the google thing is an issue from google. It cites the World Bank as source, but the world bank website shows that life expectancy in Botswana did recover, sooner and faster than in Zimbabwe (and the drop wasn't as steep or deep). Right now, their LE is seven years higher than Zimbabwe. Notably, life expectancy in Zimbabwe is actually less than before Mugabe, while it increased since 1980 in Botswana.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Strife26 on January 25, 2017, 10:55:37 am
Rhodesia was the breadbasket of Africa. Zimbabwe is not, to put things very lightly.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: ChairmanPoo on January 25, 2017, 11:19:16 am
the North Korean won
The North Korean ALWAYS wins
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on January 26, 2017, 04:16:02 am
Rhodesia was the breadbasket of Africa. Zimbabwe is not, to put things very lightly.
Just look at the case of Zimbabwe. European colonists colonized Zimbabwe calling it Rhodesia, and it was the breadbasket of Africa, producing everything from cereals to maize and even cash crops like tobacco. Mugabe comes along and fucks all their shit up; some people talk about how his persecution of white farmers fucked up Rhodesia (http://[url=https://www.theguardian.com/film/2009/oct/23/mugabe-white-african-documentary) but he could've (or rather, someone competent) could've done land reform successfully. The goal was to take away economic dominance of Zimbabwe's industry from the white minority and give it back to the black majority, however this was not what completely fucked up Zimbabwe's agriculture. Sure agriculture would've taken a dive with the loss of wealthy and skilled supervisors but in the long term Zimbabwe had good options. Zimbabwe had a whole class of educated black citizens who were the ones who worked on the very self-same farms that the whites profited from under colonial rule; obviously these citizens weren't in need of European education or high-tech equipment, they had all they needed to take over agriculture successfully. Problem is Mugabe was a paranoid git more concerned with his own power than his nation, and like Stalin did to Kulaks, for the imagined treason of supporting this guy democratically (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Tsvangirai), got fucked over. Kidnappings, expulsions, torture by the green bombers under the banner that they were supporting whites, loads of educated black farmers got wrecked, whilst their farms were given over to loyal soldiers, officials, friends and family members who saw the farms as prestige items but otherwise had no idea how to run a farm. Starving to death his opponents is as much a deliberate strategy as a result of incompetence and corruption (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-37306514).

Compare the failures of Zimbabwe with the success of Nigeria. Whilst Nigeria has problems with corruption (and princes), it is not nearly the same level as with Zimbabwe, and its government is relatively stable with rule of law at the very least not impeding farmers, and instead, the state helping them. So you see stuff where Nigeria reduced their tariff rate on agricultural machinery to 0% to increase foreign imports of commercial farming machines, government subsidized rice mills, government subsidized fertilizer for poor farmers, road, rail and port development so farmers have better access to markets and the national bank reserving capital for agricultural loans with interest rates at half the commercial rate so even poor Nigerian farmers have access to capital needed to run a large farm. I'm not saying Nigeria's at the point where it's a proper garden of eden without criticisms to mention, but it's certainly the case that in the near-future it could become a net exporter of food and set an example of how to put the sheer mass of arable land (http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/05/14/in-nigeria-agriculture-is-the-new-oil/#4d0404084517) it has at its disposal to efficient and sustainable use:
Quote from: http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/06/how-africa-could-feed-the-world/
Consider, for example, Africa’s agricultural land. According to an influential recent analysis, Africa has around 600 million hectares of uncultivated arable land, roughly 60 percent of the global total.
It may not be the case that Africa is overpopulated, rather, that its land is underutilized
I made a thing on this
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Strife26 on January 26, 2017, 03:03:18 pm
That is a pretty nice thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on February 25, 2017, 10:02:34 pm
South Africa Will Allow Expropriation Of Land Without Compensation (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/2017/02/24/zumas-radical-transformation-south-africa-will-allow-expropria/)

Quote
South Africa will amend its laws to allow expropriation of land without compensation for owners as it tries to speed up the redistribution of land to its black majority, President Jacob Zuma said on Friday.

Expropriation without compensation would mark a radical policy departure for Zuma's ruling African National Congress (ANC), shifting from a willing buyer-willing seller approach to more radical alternatives.

Most of South Africa's land remains in white hands over two decades after the end of apartheid.

"We need to take bold steps that will transform our economy, including land ownership, very fast," Zuma said in a speech outlining agricultural policy.

"We are busy amending (laws) to enable faster land reform, including land expropriation without compensation as provided for in the constitution."

Zuma referred a bill allowing state expropriation of land back to parliament last week because lawmakers failed to facilitate adequate public participation.

That bill enabled the state to acquire land without the owners' consent by paying an amount determined by the office of the Valuer-General.

Analysts say the ruling party's new, more hardline approach is in response to calls for the seizure of white-owned land by the opposition Economic Freedom Fighters party. It is also a way to shore up support in the ANC's rural political base ahead of internal party elections in December.

I predict that in 5-10 years, South Africa will be starving, just like Zimbabwe. Stupid people, why do they never learn...
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on February 25, 2017, 10:21:31 pm
Why would South Africa be starving in 5-10 years just because more landowners are black? Makes no logical sense to me. Arguably mismanagement maybe, but I'm sure they can find qualified people if they look hard enough.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on February 25, 2017, 10:25:56 pm
Why would South Africa be starving in 5-10 years just because more landowners are suddenly black? Makes no logical sense to me. Arguably mismanagement maybe, but I'm sure they can find qualified people if they look hard enough.
Private property is sacrosanct for a reason. Forceful expropriation of land with no compensation by the state always ends up in famine and starvation, or at least a severe loss in agricultural sector resulting in its inability to feed the people of the country by itself. That's what happened in USSR, that's what happened in Zimbabwe, that's what is going to happen in South Africa.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on February 25, 2017, 10:30:10 pm
Why would South Africa be starving in 5-10 years just because more landowners are black? Makes no logical sense to me. Arguably mismanagement maybe, but I'm sure they can find qualified people if they look hard enough.

The problem is that there's no way to know if the new owners are qualified. And given why they're doing this, I'm very much doubtful that they will be.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on February 25, 2017, 10:43:01 pm
btw, the main reason for the decline in food crops in Zimbabwe was actually price controls not handing farms to black folks:
http://www.irinnews.org/news/2010/08/10/more-food-production-not-enough
Basically food crops declined because those had price controls on them, whereas export crops like tobacco did not, so as inflation rose, food crops became ridiculously cheap at "official" prices, so farmers switched to things like tobacco where you could still make money. Price controls are also responsible for:

- hyperinflation in Zimbabwe
- the massive inflation in Venezuela
- russia queues, shortages and inflation in 1970s

So most of these crises are actually directly attributable to Price Controls. But "politics" drives the media to blame various other things like "socialism", "communism" and "black people being farmers". Whereas none of those things is a proximate cause and the negative effects of Price Controls are in fact a well researched phenomena:

- government caps e.g. food prices in response to inflation
- food becomes ridiculously cheap (and gets even cheaper as inflation rises)
- people hoard the cheap food, leading to shortages

(this is the main reason for the queues in 1970s Russia. the government was obligated to sell the store food at price-controlled prices which ended up being below the cost of production, and then to prevent one person hoarding it all, they enacted limits on purchases. people still hoarded anyway and sold stuff on the black market for a profit. food production didn't actually decline at all. This was purely a self-inflicted monetary crisis)

- a black market opens up, people sell the hoarded food at inflated prices
- the more food that is hoarded, the more people hoard (either to eat or to profit)
- stores start to empty out as it costs more to sell things than you get from them.

At this point you have a runaway process. Price controls themselves create artificial scarcity and themselves are the leading cause of hyperinflation.

So nope. Unless South Africa enacts price controls, none of this is going to happen. It's well known why Zimbabwe had hyperinflation, because it did the same thing other countries who have suffered hyperinflation did. And "giving land to black people" wasn't part of that process.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on February 25, 2017, 10:52:20 pm
So you're telling us that taking farms away from people who knew how to farm and giving it to people who had no idea what they were doing caused no problems at all.

Please excuse me if I find that extremely hard to believe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on February 25, 2017, 10:53:02 pm
South Africa does have price controls on "coal, petroleum and petroleum products, and utilities". (http://www.heritage.org/index/country/southafrica) So it wouldn't be unprecedented for the idiots in charge to start expanding them to food, as well, "for the good of the people".
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Teneb on February 25, 2017, 11:07:31 pm
So you're telling us that taking farms away from people who knew how to farm and giving it to people who had no idea what they were doing caused no problems at all.

Please excuse me if I find that extremely hard to believe.
First, we have no idea if the people getting that land do or don't have any experience at farming.

But most importantly, land that get redistributed tends to be handled so because they are often idle. As in, producing nothing. Buying a lot of land and then not really doing anything with it is one of the many ways to launder money.

Governments don't redistribute lands that are being used because that is not beneficial to them. After all, that land is generating product and said product can be taxed.

That said, we don't have enough information.

South Africa does have price controls on "coal, petroleum and petroleum products, and utilities". (http://www.heritage.org/index/country/southafrica) So it wouldn't be unprecedented for the idiots in charge to start expanding them to food, as well, "for the good of the people".
Maybe. Or maybe it will actually be for the good of the people. Problem is that, from what I've gathered from other posts by you, is that you only see things from what I interpret as a neo-liberal capitalist viewpoint. It's not that you shouldn't view things from that perspective, but that you should also look at issues from many perspectives.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on February 25, 2017, 11:16:23 pm
So you're telling us that taking farms away from people who knew how to farm and giving it to people who had no idea what they were doing caused no problems at all.

Please excuse me if I find that extremely hard to believe.

I was talking about what happened in Zimbabwe, in response to Reelya.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on February 25, 2017, 11:19:04 pm
So you're telling us that taking farms away from people who knew how to farm and giving it to people who had no idea what they were doing caused no problems at all.

Please excuse me if I find that extremely hard to believe.

I was talking about what happened in Zimbabwe, in response to Reelya.

Except that Reelya is saying that taking farms away from people isn't what happened in Zimbabew.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on February 25, 2017, 11:25:10 pm
No, they did take away farms, and there were some problems obviously. But it's not the cause of the crisis that Zimbabwe went through, that's very strongly related to the attempt to control inflation through price controls. Because the exact same thing has happened in many different places that did price controls throughout the 20th century, of all political stripes.

Price controls is the common factor to those cases. "Handing over farmland to black folks" is common to  exactly one place that had the hyperinflation-related shortages. Occam's Razor suggests the Price Controls were the real culprit.

And the fact is famines do not cause hyperinflation. They never do. So a mere decline in agricultural output is not a cause of hyperinflation, which was the main problem in Zimbabwe. Agricultural declines only cause imports to skyrocket, i.e. a one-off price spike, not a runaway process.

The reason that you never hear about this is that there's little political mileage in merely pointing out than a known mechanism caused the problems, they always want to blame some nebulous political concept instead of well-known economic principles.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Wolfhunter107 on February 25, 2017, 11:31:14 pm
Care to actually name some of "all of these other places"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on February 25, 2017, 11:32:03 pm
Venezuela, current price control regime.

Soviet Union in the 1970s

Those are two well-known examples.

Additionally, Egypt is currently experiencing a massive inflation surge. And guess what? They've been trying to enforce price controls for a few years now.
http://www.voanews.com/a/egypt-puts-price-controls-on-fruit-vegetables/1762413.html
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/egypt/inflation-cpi

Here is a full list of what the Cato Institute lists as "troubled currencies" i.e. those at risk of hyperinflation:
https://www.cato.org/research/troubled-currencies

Nigeria is on there, you can also google articles saying they tried price controls, and inflation only got worse after they did that.
http://allafrica.com/stories/201107280822.html

South Sudan also enacted price controls, after which inflation went turbo mode:
https://radiotamazuj.org/en/article/south-sudan-forms-panel-consider-price-controls
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/south-sudan/inflation-cpi

So in all Cato's troubled currency examples (except Syria which "war zone"), inflation became much worse after they started pushing price controls.

That's because price controls create unrealistically low official prices for basic commodities, meaning that you can profit by hoarding then selling on the black market, which creates further shortages and causes more inflation (since it becomes a seller's market). And then the original price is even cheaper so the profits from the hoard->black market cycle become ever increasing. It's basically a cycle that reinforces itself since the "store price" can never be adjusted based on supply and demand.

~~~

EDIT: Let me give an example with some numbers.

Say a country grows 1 million apples a year, and inflation has risen such that it's $1 an apple. But the government decides that's too high for poor people to get any apples, so they enact a price control where the legal price of an apple is 10 cents.

But the problem is now demand for apples massively increases, so the stores run out, and people start hoarding their apples, perhaps freezing them. So there are now less of the 1 million apples actually being eaten than before. And since people were willing to pay $1 for an apple when there were 1 million to share, when there are less to share, they're now willing to pay more that $1 on the black market, so even though no more or less apples are produced, the effective price of an apple now exceeds the original pre-control price. Add to that, that low official prices discourage producers: some apple trees are no longer viable, so supply itself drops, further driving up prices.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on February 25, 2017, 11:56:21 pm
No, they did take away farms, and there were some problems obviously. But it's not the cause of the crisis that Zimbabwe went through, that's very strongly related to the attempt to control inflation through price controls. Because the exact same thing has happened in many different places that did price controls throughout the 20th century, of all political stripes.

Price controls is the common factor to those cases. "Handing over farmland to black folks" is common to  exactly one place that had the hyperinflation-related shortages. Occam's Razor suggests the Price Controls were the real culprit.

And the fact is famines do not cause hyperinflation. They never do. So a mere decline in agricultural output is not a cause of hyperinflation, which was the main problem in Zimbabwe. Agricultural declines only cause imports to skyrocket, i.e. a one-off price spike, not a runaway process.

The reason that you never hear about this is that there's little political mileage in merely pointing out than a known mechanism caused the problems, they always want to blame some nebulous political concept instead of well-known economic principles.
Price controls are traditionally associated with socialist/communist regimes because all countries of this evil block have done those. Subsequently, any country that enacts price controls is likely to be moving towards socialism/communism. It's not a big secret, then, why people blame communism directly.

I keep noticing you're trying to shift all negative remarks away from communism, for some reason. Why? Do you see any value in trying to deflect blame from a political concept directly underlying beneath one of the most thoroughly evil regimes to ever exist, that has once threatened the very existence of human civilization in its attempts to spread and inflict the curse of communism on everyone who wasn't wise or strong enough to resist, and that countries even now, after they threw the communists away, struggle to heal the damage that they have suffered at the red bloody hands of communist fanatics?

South Africa does have price controls on "coal, petroleum and petroleum products, and utilities". (http://www.heritage.org/index/country/southafrica) So it wouldn't be unprecedented for the idiots in charge to start expanding them to food, as well, "for the good of the people".
Maybe. Or maybe it will actually be for the good of the people. Problem is that, from what I've gathered from other posts by you, is that you only see things from what I interpret as a neo-liberal capitalist viewpoint. It's not that you shouldn't view things from that perspective, but that you should also look at issues from many perspectives.
I'm seeing things from the perspective that has shown significantly bigger accuracy in predictions over all other perspectives. I don't see value in looking at issues from perspectives other that this perspective of most likely truth.

Historically, price controls have been consistently shown as inferior to regulated non-monopolized market mechanisms, and, conveniently enough, Reelya has provided a list to prove it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2017, 12:03:49 am
Because understanding the actual mechanism helps to understand what happened.

The common criticism "communism did it" almost always points the blame at some mechanism that had nothing to do with the problem.

e.g. they usually say something like "collectivism in Venezuela is the cause of the economic problems" when "collective enterprises" make up basically 0% of Venezuela's economy. There are some experimental collectivist enterprises but they make up an absolutely tiny proportion of Venezuelan GDP, so it clearly fails as an explanation of why the economy as a whole is in the shit. It's a catchphrase that misleads the reader.

Note that almost none of the countries trying this same tactic at the moment and experiences skyrocketing inflation are actually socialist in the slightest, they're just grasping at straws to stabilize their currencies. So decoupling the understanding of the mechanism itself from the "label" on the countries helps to understand why it's a bad thing to do.

And the fact that people blame "black farmers" for Zimbabwe's specific crisis of this type is indicative that people basically don't know how the mechanisms involved work. It's misattribution.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: IronyOwl on February 26, 2017, 12:55:09 am
btw, the main reason for the decline in food crops in Zimbabwe was actually price controls not handing farms to black folks:
http://www.irinnews.org/news/2010/08/10/more-food-production-not-enough
Even this source claims land redistribution was responsible for the country's "economic malaise" down at the bottom. If you want to argue the country should be miserably poor but well-fed by the existence of black farmers, this is a good article. If you want to argue South Africa will definitely not collapse into ruin and decay within a few years after implementing black farmers, you have chosen the wrong article to illustrate that.

It also claims some experts blame the maize slump on things other than price controls, and that:
Quote
The "more recent decline is due to the structural change precipitated by land tenure policies, lack of investment funds domestically and externally in agriculture sector, and overriding economic deterioration."
"Structural change precipitated by land tenure policies" might not explicitly mean grabbing more white land, but it sounds an awful lot like the government mucking about in land ownership/renting. It also mentions economic deterioration, so even "poor but fat" doesn't work so great as an argument anymore.

It also claims that total land farmed was up for various reasons, but productivity per area was down. It doesn't offer any explanations for this, but "price controls" sounds like a strange solution.

Price controls are also responsible for:

- hyperinflation in Zimbabwe
Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe may have been caused in part by all manner of things, but its absolutely absurd heights were caused by the government having no self control whatsoever. A quick glance at wikipedia places its estimated height at 79.6 billion percent in one month. I would love to see what kind of price controls can accomplish a meaningful chunk of that.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on February 26, 2017, 01:38:04 am
Because price controls set up the situation of food hoarding and shortages. Just having high inflation doesn't really do that by itself. It's like a bubble problem, things are semi-stable as long as you keep feeding the bubble, but feeding it makes it worse too (and price controls inadvertently feed the problem). Although it seems the DRC war was the precipitating factor. I found evidence that Zimbabwe's inflation rate was already skyrocketing in the years before the land redistribution. It had already hit 38% by 1999 for example. And food shortage riots (http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~dinoj/zimsummary.html) already existed at least as far back as 1998, which is well before the land redistribution laws existed.

Basically, I think any reduction in farm production could only amount to a limited amount of inflation, as a production cut will push up real prices, but not past the cost of imports (import substitution caps how much the real-adjusted prices can rise due to local production shortages). If imports themselves are suffering from hyperinflation then that's not credibly related to a production shortage.

~~~

The main problem with the idea that South Africa will turn into Zimbabwe is they're completely different:

- Agriculture accounts for 2.5% of South Africa's GDP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_South_Africa). It made up 40% of Zimbabwe's exports before the crisis.

- South Africa has pretty low inflation, 6.8%, whereas even before the land redistribution, Zimbabwe was running 31.5% inflation in 1998 and 38% inflation in 1999 (https://www.afdb.org/fileadmin/uploads/afdb/Documents/Project-and-Operations/ADB-BD-WP-99-148-EN-ZIMBABWE-1999-2001.PDF). Since the land redistribution was only ordered in 2000 (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/thank-you-mr-mugabe-zimbabwe-s-forced-land-redistribution-led-to-huge-controversy-but-it-has-8923229.html), it's clear that inflation was already strongly rising before that policy was enacted.

- South Africa has a positive balance of trade, whereas the Zimbabwe government was running large deficits in order to pay for a foreign war.

Basically, South Africa's economy is much less dependent on agriculture than Zimbabwe's was and they don't have the pre-existing inflation, deficits and war funding problem that Zimbabwe had. It's a completely different situation.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on February 26, 2017, 01:47:44 pm
Quote
I sent the Land Expropriation Act back to parliament for further consideration, in particular to enable more public participation.

Here's the speech in question (transcript; you don't hef to leesun to oua behlovèd prresidènt speak, ehehehee). (http://www.politicsweb.co.za/documents/land-expropriation-without-compensation-on-the-tab)

Please don't say "will" when it's by no means a definite. The Land Expropriation Act was accepted by Parliament in May 2016, and last I checked the country wasn't burning down any more than usual. It's back to Parly for more public participation:

Quote
Two months later‚ Zuma put the brakes on the Bill after he received petitions about the process followed by Parliament.

(Times Live) (http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2017/02/17/Zuma%E2%80%99s-return-of-Expropriation-Bill-%E2%80%98a-delay-tactic%E2%80%99%E2%80%9A-could-have-been-prevented-opposition)

And it's not like the bill sets things out so that the government can take land and declare that it was worth R5. And even so, it's possible to appeal to the courts. And the ANC spends so much time on infighting and scandals that I don't think they could turn the country into a proper dicatorship even if they were actually trying (the Guptas might be, but that's another story). Zuma's term ends in 2019 and he hasn't a hope in hell of getting the constitutional amendment that would allow him a third term. The EFF would literally riot (in Parly! They'd probably throw chairs), the DA would have a fit, and all the other opposition parties would condemn it in variously strong terms.

South Africa does have price controls on "coal, petroleum and petroleum products, and utilities". (http://www.heritage.org/index/country/southafrica) So it wouldn't be unprecedented for the idiots in charge to start expanding them to food, as well, "for the good of the people".

I'm not sure you understand how our government works. It's difficult for Northerners to grasp sometimes, but South Africa is a functioning democracy. The idiots in charge are not dictators. You'd think after Obama people would realise a black man can become a politician without wanting to become a dictator or part of a dictatorship, but I digress. The point is that they can't simply try to control the price of food. The last time Zuma and his circus troupe decided to let politics interfere with the economy, the Rand dropped an obscene amount against the dollar overnight and their pet finance minister was replaced after 8 days, IIRC. After that, our newly reappointed highly competent and honest finance minister more-or-less waged war against them for a few months over some complicated issues and ultimately came out victoriousish we think.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: ChairmanPoo on February 26, 2017, 01:54:26 pm
Why would South Africa be starving in 5-10 years just because more landowners are suddenly black? Makes no logical sense to me. Arguably mismanagement maybe, but I'm sure they can find qualified people if they look hard enough.
Private property is sacrosanct for a reason. Forceful expropriation of land with no compensation by the state always ends up in famine and starvation, or at least a severe loss in agricultural sector resulting in its inability to feed the people of the country by itself. That's what happened in USSR, that's what happened in Zimbabwe, that's what is going to happen in South Africa.

That is not so. There's precedent. Early XIX century Spain had a lot of land in the hands of big landowners and the Church, who underutilized it. After expropiating it from them the goverment managed to improve agricultural output, renewed the state's finances, and was even able to renew the army and win a succession war which up to that point had been looking dire for them.  I don't know the circumstances of South Africa, but the point is that depending on the circumstances it can be good or bad. There's not a blanket on the matter.

Also: pretty much every country has mechanisms to expropiate private property.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on February 26, 2017, 04:47:27 pm
Why would South Africa be starving in 5-10 years just because more landowners are suddenly black? Makes no logical sense to me. Arguably mismanagement maybe, but I'm sure they can find qualified people if they look hard enough.
Private property is sacrosanct for a reason. Forceful expropriation of land with no compensation by the state always ends up in famine and starvation, or at least a severe loss in agricultural sector resulting in its inability to feed the people of the country by itself. That's what happened in USSR, that's what happened in Zimbabwe, that's what is going to happen in South Africa.


That is not so. There's precedent. Early XIX century Spain had a lot of land in the hands of big landowners and the Church, who underutilized it. After expropiating it from them the goverment managed to improve agricultural output, renewed the state's finances, and was even able to renew the army and win a succession war which up to that point had been looking dire for them.  I don't know the circumstances of South Africa, but the point is that depending on the circumstances it can be good or bad. There's not a blanket on the matter.

Also: pretty much every country has mechanisms to expropiate private property.


There are other exemple of land reform working well, like post-war Japan or Taiwan. Small farmers tends to be more productive than big ones per unit of land (after all, they're willing to sink unlimited amount of labor in their own plot). The issue is more "how is land reform done" than whether it is done. In this case, I'd be more worried about the ANC using the opportunities to hand large tracts of land to themselves, the way ZANU-PF did in Zimbabwe. But then, if Arx says it's not as bad as it sounds, I trust him.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on February 27, 2017, 02:12:15 am
It is fair to say it sounds concerning, but the particular article Ser cited makes it sound worse than it is, I'd say. There's a lot more context than "corrupt ANC passes land theft bill", especially when it hasn't yet been passed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sergarr on April 11, 2017, 02:52:43 pm
/me animates the thread

Migrants are being sold at open slave markets in Libya (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/migrants-are-being-sold-open-slave-markets-libya-1616492)

Migrants from west Africa being ‘sold in Libyan slave markets’ (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/10/libya-public-slave-auctions-un-migration)

'Old slavery mentality' is making a comeback in lawless Libya, migrants say (http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-libya-migrants-2017-story.html)

Absolutely fantastic. You can just feel the democracy and human rights blossoming with the evil tyrant dictator Gaddafi deposed by light-blessed pro-Western forces of good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 28, 2017, 05:34:35 pm
/me animates the thread

Migrants are being sold at open slave markets in Libya (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/migrants-are-being-sold-open-slave-markets-libya-1616492)

Migrants from west Africa being ‘sold in Libyan slave markets’ (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/10/libya-public-slave-auctions-un-migration)

'Old slavery mentality' is making a comeback in lawless Libya, migrants say (http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-libya-migrants-2017-story.html)

Absolutely fantastic. You can just feel the democracy and human rights blossoming with the evil tyrant dictator Gaddafi deposed by light-blessed pro-Western forces of good.
How the fuck did I miss this
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: redwallzyl on July 28, 2017, 05:36:51 pm
Well theirs always the, to the shores of Tripoli, option.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Baffler on July 28, 2017, 07:05:13 pm
/me animates the thread

Migrants are being sold at open slave markets in Libya (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/migrants-are-being-sold-open-slave-markets-libya-1616492)

Migrants from west Africa being ‘sold in Libyan slave markets’ (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/10/libya-public-slave-auctions-un-migration)

'Old slavery mentality' is making a comeback in lawless Libya, migrants say (http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-libya-migrants-2017-story.html)

Absolutely fantastic. You can just feel the democracy and human rights blossoming with the evil tyrant dictator Gaddafi deposed by light-blessed pro-Western forces of good.

Getting rid of Ghaddafi was a mistake, for sure. The Libyan civil war didn't actually end, and so things like this are allowed to happen. The Tobruk government can't stop it, if they can even be bothered instead of just taking bribes to look the other way, and the jihadi infested GNA/LSF coalition the UN supports is even weaker. Still people try to get through, though. A 100% free ride in a peaceful, wealthy land is pretty enticing I guess.

Well theirs always the, to the shores of Tripoli, option.

Most Americans (and probably Euros too) don't even know there's still a war on there. The resistance to intervention in Syria is strong and it'd pale in comparison to this. History doesn't fill me with confidence they'd pick anyone decent to back either.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on July 29, 2017, 01:22:37 am
Macron seems to be willing to dedicate some political capital to Libya, notably having got both Hafar and the GNA to talk in Paris and  having them agree to both a ceasefire and scheduling new elections (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/macron-hails-libya-deal-for-a-ceasefire-and-fresh-elections-v8rpn2twp) (at which Hafar is supposed to stand) next year. Not clear if this is going to go anywhere, but at least this shows there is some will to adress the issue on the north side of the med.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on July 29, 2017, 12:58:10 pm
Macron seems to be willing to dedicate some political capital to Libya, notably having got both Hafar and the GNA to talk in Paris and  having them agree to both a ceasefire and scheduling new elections (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/macron-hails-libya-deal-for-a-ceasefire-and-fresh-elections-v8rpn2twp) (at which Hafar is supposed to stand) next year. Not clear if this is going to go anywhere, but at least this shows there is some will to adress the issue on the north side of the med.

WHat about having the support of the other factions like the Tuareg tribes in the southwest area and numerous smaller factions? Having the two biggest ones agree to reconcillation is good, but they're going to have to find some way of uniting the various groups.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Frumple on July 29, 2017, 01:03:35 pm
Kinda' would think one way of doing that would roughly be "The two biggest ones agree and quietly let the rest of them know they can get in formation or get in line for an asskicking."

Even if it doesn't get all of 'em to get on board, if it gets most then suddenly the remainder find themselves in a considerably worse situation with far less room to fly under the (variously literal) radar. Once you get the biggest tangle out of a mess, the smaller ones become much easier to get to, y'know?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 01, 2017, 08:26:21 pm
With the two biggest ones agreeing Libya will have access to their own sovereign wealth fund, which would give them 67 billion dollars to play with. This would give the new Libyan government all the funds they need to rebuild and reconquer
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: redwallzyl on August 08, 2017, 06:37:35 pm
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/08/07/541609649/how-to-fix-poverty-why-not-just-give-people-money

Interesting, certainly better that all of it going to some corrupt politician. I am certainly not a fan of aid as the system is rather horrendously corrupt but this is good.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 08, 2017, 06:56:14 pm
Well it's certainly one way for Africans to gain access to American-tier credit, it'd be interesting to see how this plays out
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: IronyOwl on August 08, 2017, 10:20:05 pm
Interesting, though I feel like the typical bar for charity/welfare is so low that any competent implementation is going to look pretty fantastic in comparison, regardless of the particulars. The whole thing is also firmly and admittedly concerned with more efficiently passing out fish rather than training any new fishermen, so it's an attempted refinement of a questionable method in the first place.

Like trying to figure out more efficient blood transfusions, even though most blood is eaten by vampires along the way and there's obvious concerns over whether it'd be possible and preferable to patch the wounds or stimulate blood production instead.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 08, 2017, 11:01:00 pm
Interesting, though I feel like the typical bar for charity/welfare is so low that any competent implementation is going to look pretty fantastic in comparison, regardless of the particulars. The whole thing is also firmly and admittedly concerned with more efficiently passing out fish rather than training any new fishermen, so it's an attempted refinement of a questionable method in the first place.
Like trying to figure out more efficient blood transfusions, even though most blood is eaten by vampires along the way and there's obvious concerns over whether it'd be possible and preferable to patch the wounds or stimulate blood production instead.
On the bright side it does place the initiative on the local level, so that ultimately the decision lies with the recipient on whether they need to become a fisherman and not some think tank on the other side of the planet
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: RedKing on August 08, 2017, 11:11:40 pm
In other news, Kenya had an election and nobody died this time. Yet.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on August 13, 2017, 04:34:01 am
Nigerians want to know where their president is.
Since Muhammedu Buhari was hospitalized 95 days ago, no one has seen him or heard from him.
Rumours that he is dead are spreading.
People are protesting using the hashtag #ResumeOrResign, asking the president to either start doing his job again, or resign.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Neonivek on August 13, 2017, 05:20:51 am
Sometimes I wonder if you really can take a lawless state and repair it without a tyrannical dictator being appointed.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Avarice on August 13, 2017, 06:07:39 am
Ha this thread.
Africa could be the world super power but europe and china are swiftly making sure it stays shit and has been for decades.
Oh i mean.
Freedom and democracy for all!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 13, 2017, 06:13:08 am
Eh, to a large extent right now we're doing a fine job of keeping ourselves down, not much external fiddling needed. Not to say there isn't some present, but saying it's all down to White Monopoly Capital/Yellow Devils/slur for external force of your choice is pointing fingers that doesn't help much.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Avarice on August 13, 2017, 06:16:14 am
Fingys are for pointing
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: redwallzyl on August 13, 2017, 07:37:32 am
Sometimes I wonder if you really can take a lawless state and repair it without a tyrannical dictator being appointed.
Yes, but its likely you would need to be rather more authoritarian then some would like for awhile. and that of course is the problem. many never transfer from the emergency dictator to a less powerful role for rather obvious reasons. you need a really genuinely good person who works really hard to not make them self into a permanent powerful figure. the man that's willing to retire to his cabbage fields for the good of the country is unfortuity rather rare in history.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: RedKing on August 13, 2017, 06:03:00 pm
In other news, Kenya had an election and nobody died this time. Yet.
Nevermind, situation normal. 24 dead. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/africa/kenya-elections-protests/index.html)

And yeah, a great deal of Africa's problems these days are self-inflicted. There are large-scale structural problems which the West rightly bears blame for, especially around finance and the lack of infrastructure, but many parts of Africa aren't doing themselves any favors by fighting to be the king of a very small, very poor, hill.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Teneb on August 13, 2017, 06:38:01 pm
In other news, Kenya had an election and nobody died this time. Yet.
Nevermind, situation normal. 24 dead. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/africa/kenya-elections-protests/index.html)

And yeah, a great deal of Africa's problems these days are self-inflicted. There are large-scale structural problems which the West rightly bears blame for, especially around finance and the lack of infrastructure, but many parts of Africa aren't doing themselves any favors by fighting to be the king of a very small, very poor, hill.
The fighting is mostly because colonial powers didn't give a shit about pre-existing borders and cultural rivalries and put minorities in power over the majorities they hated and so on. Resulting is shit like Rwanda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on August 13, 2017, 06:47:59 pm
In other news, Kenya had an election and nobody died this time. Yet.
Nevermind, situation normal. 24 dead. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/africa/kenya-elections-protests/index.html)

And yeah, a great deal of Africa's problems these days are self-inflicted. There are large-scale structural problems which the West rightly bears blame for, especially around finance and the lack of infrastructure, but many parts of Africa aren't doing themselves any favors by fighting to be the king of a very small, very poor, hill.
The fighting is mostly because colonial powers didn't give a shit about pre-existing borders and cultural rivalries and put minorities in power over the majorities they hated and so on. Resulting is shit like Rwanda.

We can't very well just erase borders and let the people redraw them the way they want them as it could easily backfire in more ways than one.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: RedKing on August 13, 2017, 06:55:34 pm
In other news, Kenya had an election and nobody died this time. Yet.
Nevermind, situation normal. 24 dead. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/africa/kenya-elections-protests/index.html)

And yeah, a great deal of Africa's problems these days are self-inflicted. There are large-scale structural problems which the West rightly bears blame for, especially around finance and the lack of infrastructure, but many parts of Africa aren't doing themselves any favors by fighting to be the king of a very small, very poor, hill.
The fighting is mostly because colonial powers didn't give a shit about pre-existing borders and cultural rivalries and put minorities in power over the majorities they hated and so on. Resulting is shit like Rwanda.
True, but at some point (and it's been 150-200 years now in many cases) the people themselves have to put that shit aside and say "Ok, sure our great-grandfathers fucking hated each other. But now we're in the same country, so it's time to move on."

Granted, there are parts of Europe (looking at you, Balkans) and even the United States that are guilty of the same thing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 13, 2017, 07:06:18 pm
True, but at some point (and it's been 150-200 years now in many cases) the people themselves have to put that shit aside and say "Ok, sure our great-grandfathers fucking hated each other. But now we're in the same country, so it's time to move on."

Granted, there are parts of Europe (looking at you, Balkans) and even the United States that are guilty of the same thing.
It's more "ok sure, our great-grandfathers fucking hated each other. But now we're in the same country, we can hate Indians instead." Switch Indians for other suitable minorities as per basis
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Neonivek on August 13, 2017, 07:39:51 pm
Sometimes I wonder if you really can take a lawless state and repair it without a tyrannical dictator being appointed.
Yes, but its likely you would need to be rather more authoritarian then some would like for awhile. and that of course is the problem. many never transfer from the emergency dictator to a less powerful role for rather obvious reasons. you need a really genuinely good person who works really hard to not make them self into a permanent powerful figure. the man that's willing to retire to his cabbage fields for the good of the country is unfortuity rather rare in history.

Well you have someone who is willing to use force against their enemies, slaughtering insurgents, cowing opposition... and be doggedly determined to do it.

How many people can do that... while also being the kind of person who would step down for the good of their country?

I am just rather depressed that it seems like one of the required steps of civilization seems to be that one leader rise above all else, wearing an iron glove.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on August 13, 2017, 07:55:34 pm
Sometimes I wonder if you really can take a lawless state and repair it without a tyrannical dictator being appointed.
Yes, but its likely you would need to be rather more authoritarian then some would like for awhile. and that of course is the problem. many never transfer from the emergency dictator to a less powerful role for rather obvious reasons. you need a really genuinely good person who works really hard to not make them self into a permanent powerful figure. the man that's willing to retire to his cabbage fields for the good of the country is unfortuity rather rare in history.

Well you have someone who is willing to use force against their enemies, slaughtering insurgents, cowing opposition... and be doggedly determined to do it.

How many people can do that... while also being the kind of person who would step down for the good of their country?

I am just rather depressed that it seems like one of the required steps of civilization seems to be that one leader rise above all else, wearing an iron glove.

In the great span of human history, the modern form of democracy is actually very young. Sure, there were some societies which were republics or had democratic style rule, but for most of human history, the dominant form of government was some form of rule by a single person or a small group of people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on August 16, 2017, 05:20:59 pm
In South Africa, the First Lady of Zimbabwe, Grace Mugabe, assaulted a 20 year old model with a electricity cable, wounding her in the head and face, apparently for no reason.

She is has been forbidden to leave the country, but has failed to show up at the police station for questioning. She did not have diplomatic immunity. The government of Zimbabwe has now asked to grant her diplomatic immunity, after the deed. South African officials say they are not so sure she will be granted that. For now, she will be treated like a regular suspect (and fugitive). Looks like the president of Zimbabwe will be devoid of wife for a while.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 16, 2017, 05:36:59 pm
Why is it that powerful people never get downed by normal crimes? It's always some weird shit like this, and this is on the more normal side.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: TheDarkStar on August 16, 2017, 05:38:42 pm
What would even be a normal crime for someone in power?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on August 16, 2017, 05:59:40 pm
What would even be a normal crime for someone in power?
^
This
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 16, 2017, 06:06:40 pm
What would even be a normal crime for someone in power?
Tax evasion & prostitution.
Fact: Most politicians are prostitutes, they make it illegal so they have no competition on the streets
dohohoho
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on August 16, 2017, 06:12:46 pm
What would even be a normal crime for someone in power?
Tax evasion & prostitution.
Fact: Most politicians are prostitutes, they make it illegal so they have no competition on the streets
dohohoho

Didn't Berlusconi get hit for basically that?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 16, 2017, 06:23:06 pm
Didn't Berlusconi get hit for basically that?
No he got hit for much more. Berlusconi is an aspirant champion of Tzeetch who created the bunga bunga party (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/8400591/Silvio-Berlusconi-and-the-bunga-bunga-parties-in-pictures.html)
Investigations or attempted prosecutions against him include:
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on August 16, 2017, 06:29:25 pm
I'm aware of the whole Bunga Bunga thing (and also as a nickname for him), though it seemed like the prostitution with the minor got the, well, loudest, news. At least that's what stood out more to me at the time maybe.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 16, 2017, 06:31:34 pm
I'm aware of the whole Bunga Bunga thing (and also as a nickname for him), though it seemed like the prostitution with the minor got the, well, loudest, news. At least that's what stood out more to me at the time maybe.
Minors
plural
Lots of plural
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 16, 2017, 11:09:46 pm
Grace Mugabe has probably already left the country, incidentally. And people are asking the police pointed questions about flight risks.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Neonivek on August 17, 2017, 09:33:10 pm
I know this is a non-sequitur... but

Wow South Africa is screeeewed!

Quote
•Child sexual prostitution

How does that happen? Wait... It isn't that he is pimping that would mean is... What a sicko!!!

I actually hope that didn't happen... if only because, well... Think of the children.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on August 17, 2017, 09:45:28 pm
I know this is a non-sequitur... but

Wow South Africa is screeeewed!

Quote
•Child sexual prostitution

How does that happen? Wait... It isn't that he is pimping that would mean is... What a sicko!!!

I actually hope that didn't happen... if only because, well... Think of the children.

As in underage prostitutes, and his nickname IS Bunga Bunga. And that's along with all the other corrupton stuff.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 18, 2017, 01:11:32 am
Where are you reading this, Neo? Because whilst the country isn't in a particularly good shape, it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. You can find otherwise-reasonable seeming sites claiming with a straight face that there's a genocide goign on here, for instance.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on August 18, 2017, 03:46:12 am
Indeed Neo, why would South Africa be screwed because of what an Italian president did in Italy years ago?

Or are you referring to a possible diplomatic riot with Zimbamwe, if for some reason Grace has not fled the country yet and they arrest her?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 18, 2017, 03:54:25 am
Or are you referring to a possible diplomatic riot with Zimbamwe, if for some reason Grace has not fled the country yet and they arrest her?

There's currently a red alert on to prevent her from leaving (although it wouldn't be the first time a wanted criminal got away). She will almost certainly be prosecuted, but she's trying to invoke diplomatic immunity (which she doesn't have - our law only implicitly extends it to heads of state, and this wasn't an official visit).
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on August 18, 2017, 05:58:17 am
Zimbabwe's just over the border though, right?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 18, 2017, 06:08:22 am
It is. The police are catching some flak for not actually arresting her, because she has "flight risk" written all over her. It was actually thought she might have fled already when the news broke.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on August 18, 2017, 06:16:12 am
Yeah. Borders can be a bitch to secure though. Particularly when you've got an entire dictatorship's resources at your disposal.

I guess that's just even more reason to have detained her in the first place, on second thought.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Neonivek on August 18, 2017, 07:19:13 am
Where are you reading this, Neo? Because whilst the country isn't in a particularly good shape, it's not as bad as some people make it out to be. You can find otherwise-reasonable seeming sites claiming with a straight face that there's a genocide goign on here, for instance.

Ohh no not anything involving genocide or anything like that... In fact given I am holding it to first world standards says something about how well it is doing as a country.

It is mostly having serious problem socially with its social programs, laws, and education. I feel like it is headed towards some sort of collapse.

Though alternatively it could just be building itself up slowly and these issues will go away over time naturally.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 18, 2017, 07:31:41 am
No, not headed towards collapse - at least not fast. I live here, I'd notice that kind of thing. Definitely shady stuff going on, but not so the country is going to implode.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on August 18, 2017, 07:37:24 am
No, not headed towards collapse - at least not fast. I live here, I'd notice that kind of thing. Definitely shady stuff going on, but not so the country is going to implode.

At that is the last that was heard of Arx before the Great Collapse of 2017, when South Africa fell in a bottomless pit after violently imploding, leaving a sole remaine a fire-preventing swimming pool floating in the air in an eldricht green glow.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on August 18, 2017, 09:00:56 am
The truth is that the collapse will not be dramatic. It will come in small tides, giving you time to get used to the current stage's version of road-bandits and highwaymen before the ones with the leather gear and 80's hair styling appear.

Yes, I went to the Mad Max school of Apocalypses.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 18, 2017, 09:08:12 am
Fortunately, things actually look like they're going upwards a bit at the moment. Admittedly they should never have been going down in the first place, but a lot of pus is draining out. Cleaning an infection is disgusting, but it's better than having it lurking under the skin festering.

No, not headed towards collapse - at least not fast. I live here, I'd notice that kind of thing. Definitely shady stuff going on, but not so the country is going to implode.

At that is the last that was heard of Arx before the Great Collapse of 2017, when South Africa fell in a bottomless pit after violently imploding, leaving a sole remaine a fire-preventing swimming pool floating in the air in an eldricht green glow.

Man, the fire pool meme is so 20...16? 15? We did eventually make him pay back some money I think.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on August 21, 2017, 02:35:35 am
So apparently Grace Mugabe was granted diplomatic immunity in the end.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 21, 2017, 02:55:06 am
Yep, apparently the ANC are still spineless and/or allergic to accountability.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: IronyOwl on August 22, 2017, 06:35:12 pm
No great shock there. As I recall they lauded Zimbabwe's last election results as totally legit bro, while most of the rest of the world decried them as openly fraudulent. Or weaseled around the language to get access to their diamonds, in Europe's case.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on August 28, 2017, 03:50:01 pm
Kenia has declared war on plastic bags.
From now on, using a plastic bag can get you fined up to 32500 euros, or put in jail for 4 years.

The Kenian government does add that this measure is not specifically meant to target end consumers.
Enforcement will mostly target producers and distributors of plastic bags.

Tourists travelling to Kenia need not worry about the plastic bags given to them at airports or in flight. When arriving in Kenia, they can turn those in at the customs office without fear of penalty.

With this measure, the Kenian government wants to show it takes pollution of the ocean and earth by plastic residue very seriously.

Kenia is not the first country to ban plastic bags. In 2015, Uganda already did the same. In practice, big supermarkets have switched to other alternatives, but local stores and markets still supply plastic bags in abundance. Enforcement is hard. Critics fear the same will happen in Kenia.

In Rwanda, there is a succesful plastic ban. There's no plastic bags to be found there since it was banned. However, Kenia and Uganda are nowhere near as militarized and authoritarian as Rwanda.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on August 28, 2017, 04:30:41 pm
I had no idea. Pretty cool.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Cruxador on August 28, 2017, 08:20:32 pm
Kind of makes me wonder what goes into the choice to ban the bags or to just reduce their use by mandating a fee, as in most of Europe and the US.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Helgoland on August 28, 2017, 08:29:20 pm
A fee is more difficult to enforce, I think.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on August 29, 2017, 03:02:02 am
Fee doesn't work, people just pay the 20 cents for a bag without second thought. There's some initiatives over here in the Netherlands as well to ban plastic bags, because fees don't work.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on August 29, 2017, 03:05:19 am
Really, I'm surprised, over here, it really did cause a sea change in the way people bag their groceries. Apparently, they was a 70% reduction in plastic bag usage (http://nltimes.nl/2017/04/18/dutch-ban-free-plastic-bags-sees-71-pct-drop-use) in the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on August 29, 2017, 03:15:50 am
I highly doubt that government report is very accurate. Perhaps they did research in a neighborhood with lots of well educated people.
Sure, since plastic bags went from being free to costing a few dimes, people use less plastic bags. But 70%? No, I cannot believe that. The vast majority of my fellow supermarket travellers I meet daily all still use the plastic bags.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 29, 2017, 03:32:17 am
There's legislation restricting how flimsy bags may be over here, to encourage reuse. It doesn't work fantastically.

Good on Kenya.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Dorsidwarf on August 29, 2017, 04:15:21 am
I know that everyone I know stopped getting plastic bags for tiny purchases of a few items and only uses them for things you actually need a bag for (most don't bring their own bags even though they do keep them for reuse because they forget), and our bag tax is only 5p?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on August 29, 2017, 10:00:44 am
There's legislation restricting how flimsy bags may be over here, to encourage reuse. It doesn't work fantastically.

Good on Kenya.

I would like something like that for us as well, even if I can see how it would be hard to control. I also feel doing more against pointless conveniences such as not bringing your own bag or basket is definitely among the things we up here can afford to do for the environment if anything.


a sea change

Unrelated to politics, but I'm curious if that is a saying in French or just a typo?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on August 29, 2017, 10:28:02 am
You had me double check, but no, it's a real english expression. (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/312800.html) Not sure where I picked it up, we have nothing like that in French.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on August 29, 2017, 10:40:49 am
Huh, interesting. I had never heard of it before. And it's Shakespearean, even!
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: smjjames on August 29, 2017, 10:43:01 am
Wouldn't be surprised if you picked it up from Shakespeare, given that's the source.

As for the whole plastic bag ban stuff, I guess it might be easier to start locally than going straight to nationally. Before California did it recently, several cities and at least one other state were already doing it.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on August 29, 2017, 10:43:38 am
It survives purely on the Shakespearean community, I suspect. It doesn't really explain itself, and I remember as a child being confused and trying to find the definition of "asecange" meant after hearing it a few times.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 29, 2017, 02:58:39 pm
I meant to mention, Jo'burg man attempts to prove the US has no monopoly on crazed gunmen. (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/hillbrow-theatre-shooting-man-to-appear-in-court-in-absentia-20170829)

Incidentally, if you want to see what an insane lone wolf criminal looks like, this is a pretty decent example.

Quote
The man reportedly walked onto the stage while a band was performing.

He then grabbed a microphone and claimed that he would stop the band unless he got his stolen cellphone back.

When the audience tried to intervene, the man opened fire, randomly shooting eight people.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on August 29, 2017, 05:33:44 pm
Ooooh a politics thread for the birthplace of humanity, I'm posting to watch even if this thread is way smaller than I've seen for both Europe and the United States.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on August 29, 2017, 05:37:46 pm
It's likely because the number of profilic African bay12 members is limited to one, unfortunately. Well, as far as I know anyway.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on August 29, 2017, 06:20:21 pm

Wouldn't be surprised if you picked it up from Shakespeare, given that's the source.

As for the whole plastic bag ban stuff, I guess it might be easier to start locally than going straight to nationally. Before California did it recently, several cities and at least one other state were already doing it.

Nah, never read any Shakespear. I guess some journalists likes it in their headlines. Maybe Captain Aubrey did puns with it or something.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on August 30, 2017, 04:25:52 am
"Sea change" has been in general parlance as a phrase for decades. However, it doesn't seem to appear in print between 1610 and 1917 at which time Ezra Pound used it in a poem as an allusion to Shakespeare. By around the 1940s it became a "phrase" by itself. So .. 99.99% used by people with no clue it's from Shakespeare.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/13/magazine/on-language-downsize-that-special-sea-change.html
http://www.word-detective.com/2009/04/sea-change/
http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/sea_change/
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on August 30, 2017, 05:19:54 am
I never made an Afripol thread because of how generally quiet it would be. Now, in true African fashion, we've moved into this thread and have set up an informal settlement.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on August 31, 2017, 02:48:07 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/28/what-do-rebels-think-about-sexual-violence-in-congo-we-asked-them/?utm_term=.4356c2cd63b7

Does this belong on this thread or should I move it elsewhere?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on September 01, 2017, 05:56:42 am
In Kenia, the supreme court in Nairobi has declared the presidential elections null and void, and has ordered new election to be held within 60 days.
The court stated that the current elected president seems free from blame, however, the election process itself showed too many irregularities to meet the constitutional minimum requirements for them to be considered valid.

Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Helgoland on September 01, 2017, 09:37:59 am
Does this belong on this thread or should I move it elsewhere?
This thread is your thread, this thread is my thread/From page one to page thirteen?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on September 01, 2017, 10:56:42 am
Page 8.

25ppp4lyf
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 01, 2017, 12:24:37 pm
Seems like Zambia might be able to avoid civil war and hold itself together, keyword on might :http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFKCN1BB1TO-OZATP?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FAFRICATopNews+%28News+%2F+AFRICA+%2F+Top+News%29

Although they seem determined to drag South Africa into the mess: http://www.msn.com/en-za/news/africa/hakainde-hichilema-da-call-for-an-end-to-south-africas-quiet-diplomacy/ar-AAr3tsY?li=BBqfP3n

Apparently the Mugabes continue to make things worse and just wish they could ruin even more nations: https://www.yahoo.com/news/whites-too-much-power-south-163041348.html http://www.reuters.com/article/us-zimbabwe-mugabe/grace-mugabe-returns-to-zimbabwe-campaign-trail-after-assault-charge-idUSKCN1BC574


Some good news is that Botswana seems to be going through financial reform, that is good, right?
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFKCN1B609A-OZATP?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FAFRICATopNews+%28News+%2F+AFRICA+%2F+Top+News%29
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Cthulhu on September 01, 2017, 12:32:17 pm
More like this is why a newly democratic country should never fucking ever become a presidential democracy. When you've got no strong democratic tradition and you opt for a system where your head of state and head of government are the same person, it shouldn't be a goddamn surprise when they start backsliding towards authoritarianism.

The U.S. is really goddamn lucky that our early presidents had enough integrity to avoid concentrating too much power, and that Washington had the foresight to establish the unofficial two term limit.

This is why a newly democratic country should never fucking ever become a democratic country.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 01, 2017, 01:03:15 pm
More like this is why a newly democratic country should never fucking ever become a presidential democracy. When you've got no strong democratic tradition and you opt for a system where your head of state and head of government are the same person, it shouldn't be a goddamn surprise when they start backsliding towards authoritarianism.

The U.S. is really goddamn lucky that our early presidents had enough integrity to avoid concentrating too much power, and that Washington had the foresight to establish the unofficial two term limit.

This is why a newly democratic country should never fucking ever become a democratic country.

I'm not good with jokes and sarcasm, is this one of those?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Cthulhu on September 01, 2017, 02:15:26 pm
Of course, you know I'd never dare speak heresy against the just and holy order of democracy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: feelotraveller on September 02, 2017, 07:19:12 am
Wait, don't the people have to decide what democracy is?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: MonkeyHead on September 02, 2017, 09:01:21 am
Wait, don't the people have to decide what democracy is?

Yes, but people being people, they literally never agree.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Cthulhu on September 02, 2017, 09:32:09 am
Wait, don't the people have to decide what democracy is?

Sure, but then they'll pick a dictatorship, which is why you have to groom the process a bit.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Karnewarrior on September 02, 2017, 12:00:14 pm
I like Africa, and have high hopes for the African Peoples in general, so I'm posting to watch.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: feelotraveller on September 02, 2017, 11:43:51 pm
Sure, but then they'll pick a dictatorship, which is why you have to groom the process a bit.

Whatever that is, it ain't no democracy.

Yes, but people being people, they literally never agree.

I'd agree with that...  :P
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: IcyTea31 on September 03, 2017, 02:08:13 am
Sure, but then they'll pick a dictatorship, which is why you have to groom the process a bit.
Whatever that is, it ain't no democracy.
Ah, but you see, it is the purest form of democracy: one person, one vote. The People's will crystallizes into that one person who casts that one vote in their best interests. /s
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Cruxador on September 03, 2017, 02:43:42 am
Wait, don't the people have to decide what democracy is?

Sure, but then they'll pick a dictatorship, which is why you have to groom the process a bit.
It's been known since the days of Plato (who published it in The Republic) that democracy is the natural predecessor of tyranny. We now have some refined methods of democracy which delay the inevitable, but that doesn't change that it's inevitable.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Sheb on September 03, 2017, 10:40:31 am
But then tyranny is the natural predecessor of democracy.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 03, 2017, 12:49:48 pm
Can this thread please return to a story directly related to Africa in some way? Talking about wether democracy is a good thing or not is fine, but it kind of takes the fun out of stuff like this: http://www.thedailybeast.com/north-koreas-latest-crime-pushing-african-rhinos-toward-extinction

Let me know if I should move this to the DPRK thread.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: feelotraveller on September 03, 2017, 02:47:04 pm
Personally I think that suggesting that Africans should decide the form that democracy takes in Africa is directly related to African politics.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on September 03, 2017, 03:25:05 pm
It seemed more like it was devolving into "what is democracy anyway?" So I apologize.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Cruxador on September 03, 2017, 09:57:53 pm
Well, there is a pretty big gap between the high level discussion (like Plato) and actual concrete policy that could be applicable to actual nations.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: martinuzz on October 15, 2017, 05:16:08 pm
In Somalia, a truck loaded with explosives detonated in front of a hotel in the nation's capital, Mogadishu, near a busy crossing with ministries, shops, and restaurants.

At least 230 people were killed, and 275 injured, making it the most lethal terrorist attack in the country so far.
Government has stated that al Shabaab is behind the attacks, and has called upon the people to donate blood at the overcrowded hospitals. The president himself joined the queues to donate blood.

Rescue services have been searching the collapsed debris of buildings all day to find victims buried under them.
Many of the victims can not be identified due to the force of the explosion.

2 hours after the attack, another car bomb went off in the city, but no one was injured despite heavy damage to buildings.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on October 15, 2017, 06:42:11 pm
In Somalia, a truck loaded with explosives detonated in front of a hotel in the nation's capital, Mogadishu, near a busy crossing with ministries, shops, and restaurants.

At least 230 people were killed, and 275 injured, making it the most lethal terrorist attack in the country so far.
Government has stated that al Shabaab is behind the attacks, and has called upon the people to donate blood at the overcrowded hospitals. The president himself joined the queues to donate blood.

Rescue services have been searching the collapsed debris of buildings all day to find victims buried under them.
Many of the victims can not be identified due to the force of the explosion.

2 hours after the attack, another car bomb went off in the city, but no one was injured despite heavy damage to buildings.

Sounds like they need better security aound the capital, also this is why I have misanthropic episodes, I get disgusted with my own species because of stuff like this.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Karnewarrior on October 15, 2017, 09:01:45 pm
In Somalia, a truck loaded with explosives detonated in front of a hotel in the nation's capital, Mogadishu, near a busy crossing with ministries, shops, and restaurants.

At least 230 people were killed, and 275 injured, making it the most lethal terrorist attack in the country so far.
Government has stated that al Shabaab is behind the attacks, and has called upon the people to donate blood at the overcrowded hospitals. The president himself joined the queues to donate blood.

Rescue services have been searching the collapsed debris of buildings all day to find victims buried under them.
Many of the victims can not be identified due to the force of the explosion.

2 hours after the attack, another car bomb went off in the city, but no one was injured despite heavy damage to buildings.
What's al Shabaab about? Another heretical islamic cult?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Culise on October 15, 2017, 10:07:01 pm
In Somalia, a truck loaded with explosives detonated in front of a hotel in the nation's capital, Mogadishu, near a busy crossing with ministries, shops, and restaurants.

At least 230 people were killed, and 275 injured, making it the most lethal terrorist attack in the country so far.
Government has stated that al Shabaab is behind the attacks, and has called upon the people to donate blood at the overcrowded hospitals. The president himself joined the queues to donate blood.

Rescue services have been searching the collapsed debris of buildings all day to find victims buried under them.
Many of the victims can not be identified due to the force of the explosion.

2 hours after the attack, another car bomb went off in the city, but no one was injured despite heavy damage to buildings.
What's al Shabaab about? Another heretical islamic cult?
I wont touch the "heretical" part since that depends on which branch of Islam you believe to be "properly orthodox" and I sure as heck won't poke my nose into that kind of argument, but they're pretty much your standard al-Qaeda-aligned (albeit with the occasional internal strife over degree), Sunni jihadist, Islamist militia.  They've been in reported decline for the past...oh, half-decade since they got their noses bloodied in Mogadishu at least, but they do maintain significant influence and outright control as a state actor in significant swaths of rural south Somalia. 
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Reelya on October 16, 2017, 12:32:17 am
Also, Al Shabaab was the youth militia wing of the Islamic rulers of Mogadishu ("Union of Islamic Courts") until 2006. They were pushed out by international forces led by Ethiopia, the main Islamic leadership then collapsed, and then Al Shabaab came into their own. Basically they're a bit like the Taliban I guess then: you have a bunch of young activists left over after the original elder Islamic leadership is all gone.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Arx on October 16, 2017, 12:54:14 am
Sounds like they need better security aound the capital

You know, first world countries can't prevent car bombings. How exactly is a nation crippled by civil war (insurgents still hold territory in parts of rural Somalia [insert "Somalia has non-rural regions?"]) supposed to get "better security around the capital"?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Zangi on October 17, 2017, 12:57:31 pm
Sounds like they need better security aound the capital

You know, first world countries can't prevent car bombings. How exactly is a nation crippled by civil war (insurgents still hold territory in parts of rural Somalia [insert "Somalia has non-rural regions?"]) supposed to get "better security around the capital"?
Probably checkpoints everywhere.  Police/military state when?
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: RedKing on October 17, 2017, 02:32:12 pm
They HAVE checkpoints everywhere. Some locally manned, some manned by African Union troops. The fact that this got through indicates either the checkpoint quality is poor, or they have some corrupt folks who are either helping al-Shabaab or taking money to cast a blind eye.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 17, 2017, 03:11:44 pm
Can the thread title get changed? I get an earworm with Shakira's "Waka Waka" song everytime I read "Meanwhile in Africa". I think "African news thread" would be less likely to trigger this earworm.
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: scriver on October 17, 2017, 04:56:34 pm
Africa Thread: Hips Don't Lie
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 17, 2017, 05:16:03 pm
I BLESS THE RAINS DOWN IN AFRICA
Title: Re: Meanwhile in Africa
Post by: RedKing on October 17, 2017, 05:25:47 pm
Hurry boy, she's waiting there for you.
Title: Re: African waka waka news thread
Post by: martinuzz on October 17, 2017, 07:05:46 pm
Can the thread title get changed? I get an earworm with Shakira's "Waka Waka" song everytime I read "Meanwhile in Africa". I think "African news thread" would be less likely to trigger this earworm.
I just listened to the song. I have no clue why the thread title would make you think of that song. I feel for you though, if you get that earwormed, so I'll see what I can do.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 18, 2017, 01:54:52 am
Because I vividly imagined Shakira singing "waka waka hey hey! Meanwhile in Africa!"

(Btw I wasnt serious about changing it. Ie:  I didnt deeply care about having Shakira stuck in my head.)
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: martinuzz on October 18, 2017, 09:13:54 am
Perhaps you can replace the Africa-Shakira link in your head with this music instead, much better. Do watch the video clip that goes with it, it's pure art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXUgtNC4Kc
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: RedKing on October 18, 2017, 09:52:19 am
I thought we were doing a decent job of putting Toto in his head. At least, it put it in *my* head. Been humming that damn song since yesterday....
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Maximum Spin on October 18, 2017, 09:54:35 am
Hahaha, me too.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: smjjames on October 18, 2017, 10:13:28 am
I thought we were doing a decent job of putting Toto in his head. At least, it put it in *my* head. Been humming that damn song since yesterday....

*has no clue what toto refers to*

*imagines trying to stuff Toto the dog from Oz into chairmanpoos head*
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: RedKing on October 18, 2017, 10:15:29 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTQbiNvZqaY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTQbiNvZqaY)
Warning: Despite the subject matter, this is the whitest bunch of whiteys that ever whited a white. Dem 80's fashions, man.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: SaberToothTiger on October 21, 2017, 11:37:03 am
ptw
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Ggobs on October 21, 2017, 02:52:57 pm
ptw
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on October 21, 2017, 07:26:07 pm
Wait people are just posting to watch rather than talking about the stuff going on in Chad or Niger ???

http://www.businessinsider.com/chad-was-included-in-trumps-travel-ban-for-an-absurd-reason-2017-10?amp%3Butm_medium=referral

Or about any of the oddities occurring in Morocco
http://www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/business/morocco-recalls-envoy-algeria-official-hashish-claims-article-1.3578778
 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/disabled-chefs-serve-as-model-for-change-in-morocco/2017/10/15/932817b6-b1a9-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html?utm_term=.3ea8859e66c5 www.nydailynews.com/newswires/news/business/russian-prime-minister-strikes-energy-deals-morocco-article-1.3556548

or the more noticable political events there; http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/10/17/21-opposition-members-on-trial-over-morocco-protests.html


Also people have decided to stoke Mugabe's Ego again for reasons; https://www.yahoo.com/news/robert-mugabe-role-world-health-162500580.html
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Reelya on October 21, 2017, 10:14:54 pm
With the WaPost etc they are now paywalled after you view only a small number of articles. Including a basic blurb about what the story is would be helpful.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on October 22, 2017, 08:39:01 am
With the WaPost etc they are now paywalled after you view only a small number of articles. Including a basic blurb about what the story is would be helpful.

A restaurant in Morroco where the chefs are developmentally disabled, in the capital.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: scriver on October 22, 2017, 08:48:32 am
It's part of a government funded program, it seems. How is that odd?
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Karnewarrior on October 22, 2017, 10:32:09 am
It's part of a government funded program, it seems. How is that odd?
Because Africa is a backwards country. /s
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Reelya on October 22, 2017, 11:17:43 am
I can see Africa from my house.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: martinuzz on October 22, 2017, 12:46:26 pm
It's part of a government funded program, it seems. How is that odd?
Because Africa is a backwards country. /s
Morocco is a modern country. Were it not for oppressing and discriminating against certain ethnic groups, it could almost pass for a European country, like Spain.

... Oh, wait.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Helgoland on October 22, 2017, 08:16:30 pm
Wait, are actual Catalans being discriminated against? I thought that was a level they had not yet sunk to...
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on October 22, 2017, 09:52:25 pm
Wait, are actual Catalans being discriminated against? I thought that was a level they had not yet sunk to...

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/european-parliament-police-repression-catalonia_198528_102.html

No, they are clearly being treated nicely and fairly, and everyone is just trying to find something to complain about/sarc.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on October 22, 2017, 10:36:51 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-41713919 Apparently, WHO has finally realized that Robert Mugabe was a poor representative.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 23, 2017, 03:25:24 am
Wait, are actual Catalans being discriminated against? I thought that was a level they had not yet sunk to...

http://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/european-parliament-police-repression-catalonia_198528_102.html

No, they are clearly being treated nicely and fairly, and everyone is just trying to find something to complain about/sarc.
Well, the EU says that this is a Spanish inner affairs problem, so it clearly isnt repression at all (sarcasm mode off)

For the record, what's happening is a lighter version of what went om in the Basque Country 30 years ago. Back then the EU didnt really say very much about goverment sponsored death squads (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAL_(paramilitary_group)), so I wouldn't hold my breath about them doing anything now
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Arx on October 23, 2017, 05:36:52 am
There is a thread for that, folks, but it's not this one.

Suicide bomber in Nigeria kills 13, injures 5: http://a.msn.com/r/2/AAtVgRE?a=1&m=EN-ZA
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Culise on October 23, 2017, 08:06:10 am
Well, the EU says that this is a Spanish inner affairs problem, so it clearly isnt repression at all (sarcasm mode off)

For the record, what's happening is a lighter version of what went om in the Basque Country 30 years ago. Back then the EU didnt really say very much about goverment sponsored death squads (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAL_(paramilitary_group)), so I wouldn't hold my breath about them doing anything now
Of course, this shouldn't be too surprising, since the European Union turns 24 this November 1.  Obama didn't do anything about Hurricane Katrina, either. :P

Yes, I know you probably meant the EEC.  I couldn't resist the jibe, though. 
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: martinuzz on November 10, 2017, 12:09:51 pm
Meanwhile in Jemen, people are about to die of hunger.

The Untited Nations and over 20 aid organisations have demanded that Saudi-Arabia immediatly lifts it's blockade of Jemen and let food shipments through, or
"the world will see the largest famine it has ever seen, and millions of people will die of hunger"

I wonder what the UN will do if Saudi-Arabia doesn't budge and lets millions starve.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: IronyOwl on November 10, 2017, 02:30:11 pm
Digging a bit, the context appears to be that the Saudis have a new leader who's been considerably more bellicose than previous ones. They supposedly view the Yemen conflict as a proxy war with Iran, their hated rival, and so are rather gung-ho about fighting one of Yemen's rebel groups. The current blockade was supposedly in response to a missile flying around 500 miles into their territory before being shot down; they claim Iran's smuggling in such missiles and they need the blockade to prevent this/"review policy".

Yemen is, not surprisingly, a complete shithole that's been utterly crippled by ~3 years of war and I assume decades of general douchebaggery, hence the heavy reliance on free food and other supplies to not starve to death, run out of gas, etc.


I wonder what the UN will do if Saudi-Arabia doesn't budge and lets millions starve.
Given that the Saudis are a US ally and this is to "fight terrorism," I imagine a whole lot of harsh language.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Culise on November 14, 2017, 10:32:13 am
No actual news yet, but I thought this might be of interest here.  As such...

Zimbabwe: Army tanks seen heading towards capital Harare amid rising tensions between Robert Mugabe's Zanu PF and military (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/zimbabwe-crisis-army-tanks-robert-mugabe-zanu-pf-harare-capital-military-politics-president-chiwenga-a8054141.html)

Mugabe allies hit out at Zimbabwe army chief (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-41984813)
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Arx on November 14, 2017, 01:13:08 pm
Word on the street is that this isn't a coup, but no-one really knows anything. It's one of those situations where everyone's just circulating the same 3-4 pictures and speculating.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: smjjames on November 14, 2017, 09:53:41 pm
It's starting to look like a coup, http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-41992351 , soldiers took over a TV and radio station in Harare and there were reports of gun and artillery fire in a district that lots of politicians including Mugabe live in. The US State Department has advised US citizens in Zimbabwe to shelter in place.

Clearly something is going on, though not 100% clear what.

Edit:Now it says that the military made a statement saying that they're targeting criminals, not the government. I fail to see what taking over a TV station has to do with that.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Arx on November 15, 2017, 05:09:28 am
Ex-vice president Mnangagwa might be put in control. (https://www.iol.co.za/news/special-features/zimbabwe/axed-mnangagwa-to-take-control-of-zimbabwe-government-report-12005743) Might. Nothing official yet, as far as I know.

A Zimbabwean guy I know was speculating that Robert Mugabe bit the dust and the military is trying to prevent Grace Mugabe from taking over, but I think that's a bit far fetched.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Reelya on November 15, 2017, 05:14:11 am
My news says Mugabe and his wife have both been arrested.
http://www.news.com.au/world/africa/bloodless-correction-mugabe-wife-in-custody-of-zimbabwes-army/news-story/2f55a687f28a6e2399447206c1127d35

Quote
ZIMBABWE’S army says it has President Robert Mugabe and his wife in custody and is securing government offices and patrolling the capital’s streets following a night of unrest that included a military takeover of the state broadcaster. The night’s action triggered speculation of a coup, but the military’s supporters praised it as a “bloodless correction”.

Also note that when they talk about "targeting criminals" they seem to be talking about corruption not street crime. They're talking about "criminals around Mugabe" who are "committing crimes that are causing social and economic suffering in the country in order to bring them to justice". e.g. so this is a purge being carried out against the faction around Mugabe in order to crush their political power. Most likely to prevent them consolidating their own faction in power after Mugabe's death (he's 93).
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Arx on November 15, 2017, 05:22:24 am
The fact of the matter is that it's too soon to say exactly what's happening here. The military can say whatever they want, I'll be waiting for their actions before I make any calls.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Reelya on November 15, 2017, 05:24:43 am
Well from their statements it sounds like a political purge type situation.

Any organization is generally going to sugar-coat whatever they're doing. In this case they're basically publicly stating that they're taking out Mugabe's political and economic faction from power, which i have little reason to think they're pretend to be doing if they weren't actually doing that. It would be near suicide to make a claim like that and not be able to follow through. I'm pretty sure Zimbabweans would have a good idea which public figures are part of Mugabe's faction, so at the very least, even if it's a "for show" purge then all the public figures too closely associated with the Mugabe regime would have to go.

And of course, he must have some supporters, so they'd be careful to try and suppress any outcry there, perhaps also targeting likely leaders of any blowback against what they're doing. So supporter groups of Mugabe would have to be also targeted and at least monitored, if not having their leadership detained.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: smjjames on November 15, 2017, 11:51:47 am
It's certainly coup-like though https://www.vox.com/world/2017/11/15/16654740/zimbabwe-coup-situation-robert-mugabe-house-arrest
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: IronyOwl on November 15, 2017, 03:34:31 pm
Interesting. Look forward to seeing how this develops.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Strife26 on November 15, 2017, 04:32:10 pm
It's certainly coup-like though https://www.vox.com/world/2017/11/15/16654740/zimbabwe-coup-situation-robert-mugabe-house-arrest

If it looks like a coup and quacks like a coup and involves tanks rolling through cities like a coup. . .
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: scriver on November 16, 2017, 04:45:24 am
The most interesting thing is that according to my news show they might've couped it to stop the First Lady from taking control (or maybe she was already in charge and the President just a front man?) after she allegedly had the Vice President fired. The news analyst speculated they might actually let Mugabe stay in power for his remaining term once they've dealt with Grace' s support.

Very interesting, you don't see this level of court intrigue out in the open very often.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Funk on November 16, 2017, 08:15:26 am
Mugabe's 93, he easly to sideline (He could be imprisoned "resting" with some guards "Helpers".) or if he could just die any day now for old age.
Heck he might be dead allready, has he been seen in public latey?
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Cruxador on November 16, 2017, 10:51:41 am
Now, the real question: Mugabe was hardly a good leader. Hell, he's so bad that he's the poster boy for colonialism's apologists. So will the new administration be able to turn the country around or, being Mugabe's cronies in the first place, will they end up just being more of the same? Or, will they somehow be even worse?
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: smjjames on November 16, 2017, 10:58:11 am
Military coups don't historically end up with great governments afterwards (democracy wise that is). That generals motives do appear to be for the people, but it's what they do after the coup is over that's going to matter.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: RedKing on November 16, 2017, 11:00:38 am
Mugabe's 93, he easly to sideline (He could be imprisoned "resting" with some guards "Helpers".) or if he could just die any day now for old age.
Heck he might be dead allready, has he been seen in public latey?
Latest report I saw was that Jacob Zuma had spoken to him by phone in the last couple of days.

I'm intrigued by this notion that the military has put forward that they're not ousting Mugabe, they're just clearing out the "criminals" in the government. Will be interesting to see if they release Mugabe, but with a cabinet of handpicked advisors.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: smjjames on November 16, 2017, 11:04:25 am
Yeah, it's not quite your garden variety coup with a straight up ousting of the leader, they don't seem to have removed Mugabe from his position, yet.

The BBC has a live blog on it http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-africa-41994362

Latest is that they're pushing him to resign, and possibly have normal elections? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42006777 Efit: South Africa has gotten themselves involved in this, largely because they're hosting lots of Zimbabwean refufpgees.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Arx on November 16, 2017, 11:40:36 am
Ah, well, RIP the "Mbeki diplomacy" dream. Practically speaking though, it was inevitable - Southern Africa (the region, not the country SA) is decently interconnected. Zim imploding does directly affect us.

But yeah, this is why I've been saying for a while that it's too soon to say "yep, this is a military coup". There's too much bizarre stuff going on that doesn't match historical coups for it to be that cut and dried.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 16, 2017, 11:45:49 am
While I do see some potential for this to end well for Zimbabwe (after all, every democratic regime that exists was derived from a brutal autocracy at one point or another), it's very unfortunate that this is happening while SA is plagued by Zuma.

Wouldn't that be some 2017-level irony? Bastion of progress South Africa falls back into dictatorship while loony-bin Zimbabwe gets free elections.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Sheb on November 16, 2017, 12:36:44 pm
It seems that the army is pushing the faction lead by Emmerson Mnangagwa, former VP, head of security since the 1980's and general all around violent bad guy. (https://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21731449-his-secret-was-talk-eloquently-and-carry-big-stick-how-robert-mugabe-held) Basically, trying to make sure that Grace Mugabe can't take their spot at feeding from the through of corruption. It's hard to see them make next year's elections any fairer than all the previous ones.

Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: smjjames on November 16, 2017, 12:51:50 pm
Sounds like they're just exchanging one dictatorship for another. I looked in the BBC live blog on it a couple min at and they're supposedly getting close to a deal
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Sheb on November 16, 2017, 12:56:12 pm
Sounds like they're just exchanging one dictatorship for another. I looked in the BBC live blog on it a couple min at and they're supposedly getting close to a deal

Well, if they traded Mugabe for a semi-competent dictator that would already be great.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Paxiecrunchle on November 16, 2017, 01:58:57 pm
Well, It is nice to see this thread getting some regular news for once, even if it is hectic.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Arx on November 16, 2017, 02:15:32 pm
While I do see some potential for this to end well for Zimbabwe (after all, every democratic regime that exists was derived from a brutal autocracy at one point or another), it's very unfortunate that this is happening while SA is plagued by Zuma.

Wouldn't that be some 2017-level irony? Bastion of progress South Africa falls back into dictatorship while loony-bin Zimbabwe gets free elections.

I mean, I guess it's marginally more likely than the God-Emperor Trump timeline, but...

It seems that the army is pushing the faction lead by Emmerson Mnangagwa, former VP, head of security since the 1980's and general all around violent bad guy. (https://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21731449-his-secret-was-talk-eloquently-and-carry-big-stick-how-robert-mugabe-held) Basically, trying to make sure that Grace Mugabe can't take their spot at feeding from the through of corruption. It's hard to see them make next year's elections any fairer than all the previous ones.

Probably not worse than Mugabe, although you never know. I'm not quite convinced by the article's confident assertion that this is 100% targeted at Grace Mugabe, but it could well be.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: IronyOwl on November 16, 2017, 10:08:52 pm
Probably not worse than Mugabe, although you never know.
I feel like it would take concerted effort to be worse than Mugabe, but we don't really know what part the military has had in ruling Zimbabwe up until now, so it's entirely plausible that it'll be literally the same.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Reelya on November 16, 2017, 10:43:45 pm
South Africa has gotten themselves involved in this, largely because they're hosting lots of Zimbabwean refufpgees.

They want some positive press covfefe.

Ah, well, RIP the "Mbeki diplomacy" dream. Practically speaking though, it was inevitable - Southern Africa (the region, not the country SA) is decently interconnected. Zim imploding does directly affect us.

But yeah, this is why I've been saying for a while that it's too soon to say "yep, this is a military coup". There's too much bizarre stuff going on that doesn't match historical coups for it to be that cut and dried.

I think you're using a different definition to the other posters then. You were assuming that coup must mean "military junta" whereas the rest of us were just meaning any forceful change of government, where the actors are also part of the existing power-structure. The coup is the act of taking power, it is separate from whatever you do with power afterwards: what you do next doesn't change that it is a coup.

Basically what separates a coup from a revolution is that in a coup, the actors come from within the power structure (which could be political, military, perhaps with collusion from their industrial backers), while in a revolution, the actors are attacking the power structure from outside.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

Here, there was a review of the history of coups since WWII, it found about a 50% success/failure rate, and also a 50% rate for ending with democracy vs dictatorship after successful coups. So there's no real necessary connection with military juntas and coups per se. After a coup, you basically have even odds of ending up with democracy or not. The ones that did end with dictatorships tended to be more repressive than before the coup however, but in the big picture, that's excluding the less repressive half of coup-leaders. It tells you nothing about whether coups on average make things better or worse.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Culise on November 19, 2017, 01:53:58 pm
Welp, it's off and flying now.  After his brief appearance a couple days back at Zimbabwe Open University for the sake of making all appear normal in spite of recent events, Mugabe no longer leads his political party (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42043370), and he's being called on to resign the presidency. 
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Doomblade187 on November 19, 2017, 03:31:33 pm
And now he has refused, according to Reuters. link (http://"https://www.reuters.com/article/us-zimbabwe-politics/mugabe-defies-demands-to-quit-as-zimbabwes-leader-after-party-fires-him-idUSKBN1DJ069")
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: smjjames on November 19, 2017, 03:43:30 pm
Your link is broken somehow, it's not working. Anyways, yeah, he's refusing to step down, which isn't surprising for dictators and presidents-for-life since they don't tend to step down peacefully or without a fight. http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/19/africa/zimbabwe-mugabe-party-meeting/index.html

What's next is supposed to be an impeachment proceedings. Even then, things aren't certain whether democracy will actually be put in place since the presumed successor is every bit a strongman as any typical dictator.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Strife26 on November 26, 2017, 08:07:24 pm
Anyone placing odds on Rhodesia popping up again?
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: IronyOwl on November 26, 2017, 10:16:26 pm
Mugabe's still ridiculously popular for battling the Imperial Menace, so I suspect only around half the country would go for it.

Would be a hilarious referendum, though.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: smjjames on November 26, 2017, 10:33:50 pm
Why would they rename it back to the old colonial name?

Apparently Mugabe is going to stick around politically as an elder advisor or something. Or he might go into exile, depends on how many people want him dead or at least out of the picture politically.

Meanwhile, Mnenguneng (sp?? seriously. His nickname is 'crocodile' though.) promised 'jobs, jobs, jobs', which sounds exactly like Trump, though it's a pretty cliche political statement. The guy has a reputation for being brutal (see his nickname, one doesn't get that by being a nice guy), but is claiming that he'll reform things and make things better. Whether he'll allow elections to happen normally remains to be seen, but for now it looks like they're just exchanging one dictator for another.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: IronyOwl on November 26, 2017, 10:54:08 pm
Why would they rename it back to the old colonial name?
Because things were nice back then.

Meanwhile, Mnenguneng (sp?? seriously. His nickname is 'crocodile' though.) promised 'jobs, jobs, jobs', which sounds exactly like Trump, though it's a pretty cliche political statement. The guy has a reputation for being brutal (see his nickname, one doesn't get that by being a nice guy), but is claiming that he'll reform things and make things better. Whether he'll allow elections to happen normally remains to be seen, but for now it looks like they're just exchanging one dictator for another.
So nothing like Trump in particular.

Dictator train is almost assuredly going to continue rolling unless anti-Mugabe sentiment reaches a boiling point for some reason, at which point we'll probably have a bloody uprising/suppression. More likely the question is how competent this dictator will be.

That said, Mugabe had a cult of personality going that undoubtedly helped hold things together. It'll be interesting to see if the new boss can continue things as usual or if there's weird splits and breakdowns in places Mugabe never had to worry about. Or maybe those will just be opportunities to keep living up to his nickname and we'll get some fresh new innovations on brutal totalitarianism.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: smjjames on November 26, 2017, 11:02:26 pm
Why would they rename it back to the old colonial name?
Because things were nice back then.

Nicer for who? Besides, that'd defeat the point of their whole civil war and overthrowing the majority white government.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: IronyOwl on November 27, 2017, 03:41:36 am
Nicer for who?
Economically, everyone. Politically/racially, it's complicated.

Besides, that'd defeat the point of their whole civil war and overthrowing the majority white government.
Arguably, so did running the country into the ground and keeping their foot on the pedal.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Arx on November 27, 2017, 03:57:25 am
I'm optimistic that it's very difficult for Mnangagwa to be worse than Mugabe on a grand scale, although his reputation for brutality does worry me. Violent government oppression is one of the few ways for Zimbabwe to go downhill from here.

"Jobs, jobs, jobs" sounds like typical political rhetoric, but it's pretty much exactly what Zim needs at the moment. The country practically doesn't have an economy, trying to repair that is priority number one.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Doomblade187 on February 14, 2018, 06:22:37 pm
And Zuma has resigned as president today.

I figured this would be the proper thread.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-africa-43066443 (https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-africa-43066443)
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: martinuzz on March 02, 2018, 01:25:42 pm
In Ouagadougou, the capital of Burkina Faso, the French embassy, a French cultural center, the home of the prime minister, and the headquearters of the national army have come under terrorist attack.
Gunmen jumped from cars in the city center, attacking random people in the street, while advancing on the embassy.
Loud explosions were heard at the cultural center.
The city is clouded in thick black smoke.

French president Macron is being briefed on the situation by the Elysée. The embassy has urged all staff to stay inside.
According to the Burkina Faso police, several assailants have been shot and killed, and the situation at the embassy and cultural center is now under control. It is unknown what the status is at the premier's home, or the army base.

Burkina Faso, formerly Upper Volta, was a French colony until 1960.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Dorsidwarf on March 03, 2018, 11:19:23 am
According to the BBC, at least 8 attackers and 8 security personnel have been killed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-43257453
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: martinuzz on March 23, 2018, 03:49:18 am
In Kenia, a judge ruled that anal examination of males to check if they had anal sex is against the Constitution.
Homosexuality is still a criminal offense in Kenia, but those suspected of homosexuality can henceforth no longer be anal probed.
I guess that's a small step forward :(
Punishment for homosexuality in Kenia is up to 14 years in prison.
Title: Re: African news thread
Post by: Cruxador on March 24, 2018, 06:44:09 pm
I somewhat doubt how useful that would be at actually determining what it's alleged to determine.