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Author Topic: African news thread  (Read 28261 times)

scriver

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #255 on: November 16, 2017, 04:45:24 am »

The most interesting thing is that according to my news show they might've couped it to stop the First Lady from taking control (or maybe she was already in charge and the President just a front man?) after she allegedly had the Vice President fired. The news analyst speculated they might actually let Mugabe stay in power for his remaining term once they've dealt with Grace' s support.

Very interesting, you don't see this level of court intrigue out in the open very often.
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Funk

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #256 on: November 16, 2017, 08:15:26 am »

Mugabe's 93, he easly to sideline (He could be imprisoned "resting" with some guards "Helpers".) or if he could just die any day now for old age.
Heck he might be dead allready, has he been seen in public latey?
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Cruxador

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #257 on: November 16, 2017, 10:51:41 am »

Now, the real question: Mugabe was hardly a good leader. Hell, he's so bad that he's the poster boy for colonialism's apologists. So will the new administration be able to turn the country around or, being Mugabe's cronies in the first place, will they end up just being more of the same? Or, will they somehow be even worse?
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smjjames

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #258 on: November 16, 2017, 10:58:11 am »

Military coups don't historically end up with great governments afterwards (democracy wise that is). That generals motives do appear to be for the people, but it's what they do after the coup is over that's going to matter.
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RedKing

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #259 on: November 16, 2017, 11:00:38 am »

Mugabe's 93, he easly to sideline (He could be imprisoned "resting" with some guards "Helpers".) or if he could just die any day now for old age.
Heck he might be dead allready, has he been seen in public latey?
Latest report I saw was that Jacob Zuma had spoken to him by phone in the last couple of days.

I'm intrigued by this notion that the military has put forward that they're not ousting Mugabe, they're just clearing out the "criminals" in the government. Will be interesting to see if they release Mugabe, but with a cabinet of handpicked advisors.
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smjjames

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #260 on: November 16, 2017, 11:04:25 am »

Yeah, it's not quite your garden variety coup with a straight up ousting of the leader, they don't seem to have removed Mugabe from his position, yet.

The BBC has a live blog on it http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-africa-41994362

Latest is that they're pushing him to resign, and possibly have normal elections? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42006777 Efit: South Africa has gotten themselves involved in this, largely because they're hosting lots of Zimbabwean refufpgees.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:09:27 am by smjjames »
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Arx

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #261 on: November 16, 2017, 11:40:36 am »

Ah, well, RIP the "Mbeki diplomacy" dream. Practically speaking though, it was inevitable - Southern Africa (the region, not the country SA) is decently interconnected. Zim imploding does directly affect us.

But yeah, this is why I've been saying for a while that it's too soon to say "yep, this is a military coup". There's too much bizarre stuff going on that doesn't match historical coups for it to be that cut and dried.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #262 on: November 16, 2017, 11:45:49 am »

While I do see some potential for this to end well for Zimbabwe (after all, every democratic regime that exists was derived from a brutal autocracy at one point or another), it's very unfortunate that this is happening while SA is plagued by Zuma.

Wouldn't that be some 2017-level irony? Bastion of progress South Africa falls back into dictatorship while loony-bin Zimbabwe gets free elections.
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Sheb

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #263 on: November 16, 2017, 12:36:44 pm »

It seems that the army is pushing the faction lead by Emmerson Mnangagwa, former VP, head of security since the 1980's and general all around violent bad guy. Basically, trying to make sure that Grace Mugabe can't take their spot at feeding from the through of corruption. It's hard to see them make next year's elections any fairer than all the previous ones.

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smjjames

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #264 on: November 16, 2017, 12:51:50 pm »

Sounds like they're just exchanging one dictatorship for another. I looked in the BBC live blog on it a couple min at and they're supposedly getting close to a deal
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Sheb

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #265 on: November 16, 2017, 12:56:12 pm »

Sounds like they're just exchanging one dictatorship for another. I looked in the BBC live blog on it a couple min at and they're supposedly getting close to a deal

Well, if they traded Mugabe for a semi-competent dictator that would already be great.
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Paxiecrunchle

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #266 on: November 16, 2017, 01:58:57 pm »

Well, It is nice to see this thread getting some regular news for once, even if it is hectic.

Arx

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #267 on: November 16, 2017, 02:15:32 pm »

While I do see some potential for this to end well for Zimbabwe (after all, every democratic regime that exists was derived from a brutal autocracy at one point or another), it's very unfortunate that this is happening while SA is plagued by Zuma.

Wouldn't that be some 2017-level irony? Bastion of progress South Africa falls back into dictatorship while loony-bin Zimbabwe gets free elections.

I mean, I guess it's marginally more likely than the God-Emperor Trump timeline, but...

It seems that the army is pushing the faction lead by Emmerson Mnangagwa, former VP, head of security since the 1980's and general all around violent bad guy. Basically, trying to make sure that Grace Mugabe can't take their spot at feeding from the through of corruption. It's hard to see them make next year's elections any fairer than all the previous ones.

Probably not worse than Mugabe, although you never know. I'm not quite convinced by the article's confident assertion that this is 100% targeted at Grace Mugabe, but it could well be.
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IronyOwl

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #268 on: November 16, 2017, 10:08:52 pm »

Probably not worse than Mugabe, although you never know.
I feel like it would take concerted effort to be worse than Mugabe, but we don't really know what part the military has had in ruling Zimbabwe up until now, so it's entirely plausible that it'll be literally the same.
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Reelya

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Re: African news thread
« Reply #269 on: November 16, 2017, 10:43:45 pm »

South Africa has gotten themselves involved in this, largely because they're hosting lots of Zimbabwean refufpgees.

They want some positive press covfefe.

Ah, well, RIP the "Mbeki diplomacy" dream. Practically speaking though, it was inevitable - Southern Africa (the region, not the country SA) is decently interconnected. Zim imploding does directly affect us.

But yeah, this is why I've been saying for a while that it's too soon to say "yep, this is a military coup". There's too much bizarre stuff going on that doesn't match historical coups for it to be that cut and dried.

I think you're using a different definition to the other posters then. You were assuming that coup must mean "military junta" whereas the rest of us were just meaning any forceful change of government, where the actors are also part of the existing power-structure. The coup is the act of taking power, it is separate from whatever you do with power afterwards: what you do next doesn't change that it is a coup.

Basically what separates a coup from a revolution is that in a coup, the actors come from within the power structure (which could be political, military, perhaps with collusion from their industrial backers), while in a revolution, the actors are attacking the power structure from outside.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

Here, there was a review of the history of coups since WWII, it found about a 50% success/failure rate, and also a 50% rate for ending with democracy vs dictatorship after successful coups. So there's no real necessary connection with military juntas and coups per se. After a coup, you basically have even odds of ending up with democracy or not. The ones that did end with dictatorships tended to be more repressive than before the coup however, but in the big picture, that's excluding the less repressive half of coup-leaders. It tells you nothing about whether coups on average make things better or worse.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 11:09:03 pm by Reelya »
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