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[PlainTextMan]

I've thought a bit about how foods in DF could be improved. I'm not particularly knowledgeable in biology and dietetics, so humor me. Also, sorry if this was already suggested as I did here; in that case please link me to the other post.

In nature, we eat and enjoy different kinds of food and drink because of their variety. Besides taste, which in modern society can be quite seperated from food's actual contents, there is the important issue of nutrition/"food contents" and that of how convenient a food is to consume. Implementing a basic nutrient-variety system in the game would make foods much more interesting. I'll elaborate a bit via example first.

I eat bread because it gives me carbohydrates that keep me going (I know because bread serves as an excellent low-bloodsugar remedy for me). I could eat raw oats, corn or grain, but they don't taste very good, take longer to chew and I can't easily put some butter and marmite on them. I prefer brown bread over white bread for several reasons. I think it tastes better, keeps me going for longer ("glycemic index") and I suspect white bread gets me constipated easier when I eat a lot of it. In any case, that all could be viewed simply as a personal preference.

I need meat too, though. Bread don't give me protiens, without which I would die (I think I'd definitely die without enough carbohydrates too). And other good nutrients that keep my body going such as iron and magnesium (minerals).

Then there is chocolate and pizza. Technically high in protien, I eat them for their taste, mostly. Too much and I get sinus problems for a day or so (diary in general).

Suggestion
I think DF can definitely do with the addition of a simple food&nutrient-type-and-effect system. All behind the scenes to ultimately support food variety and game interestingness. So, each food/drink type provides certain quantities of certain nutrient types to the consumer.

For humanoids, the classes and their effects could be these:

• Carbohydrates: basic energy source to be metabolized
• Protients: body maintanance, growth, needed for proper metabolic function
• Vitamin and Mineral categories: body maintanance (eyesight etc), metabolic function, others such as perspiration
• Fats: body maintanance (fatty acids), insulating effects, may be metabolized
• Fiber: maintains digestive health, could be metabolized somewhat during hard times
• Alcohol: in humans this is metabolized very quickly similiar to carbo's and it causes drunken happiness. In dwarves, however, this would be a basic nutrient essential to metabolic function (the absence of which causes progressive loss of energy up to the point of stasis/hibernation).
• Perhaps various other organ-generated/consumed things like glycogen (blood-carried energy source for cells), creatine (used up in short bursts of energy) and ketones (insane keytosis from starvation! Fun!), although that may be taking it a bit too far. If not, one could go farther and add oxygen to the mix: extracted from the air, it is a metabolic ingredient. No air, no oxygen, asphexation. Herbivores could extract specific nutrients from the plants they eat and pack them into their muscles and organs. Energy is needed to produce body heat in cold environments. Now things are approaching biologic chemistry.

I think this may be basic enough to be practically required, at some point or another, of a detailed game like DF. Of course, blood could also be considered a nutrient-carrying food under this system, although highly repulsive to most creatures, inducing nausia. But not for vampires or giant leeches.

(possible) Advantages
Combined with parameters for how good a food tastes and convenient it is to eat, this system would make processed foods like bread and sweets make sense for the first time. And would force the player to deal with providing the neccesary nutrients to their dwarves, as opposed to the current immensely boring average case of dwarves living only on plumpsh*t and the occasional imported cheese or alpaca lung.

What does everyone think? Also, I was wondering whether Toady and Threetoe are planning something similiar already.

[Montague]

I'd group vitamins and minerals together for simplicity's sake.

You could add fat to the list.

I do like the idea though. Malnutriton was obviously a serious problem for that era. I think the system just needs to encourage players to provide more variety of foods to the fortress population. It doesn't need to be overly complicated

"Subject: Help! My dwarves keep dying from scurvy!"

I imagine if you had nothing but kitten tallow biscuits and cold plump helmets, you'd probably have some trouble maintaining very strong or sturdy soldiers and miners, for example.

[PlainTextMan]

I was just editing a little when you replied.

I think the system just needs to encourage players to provide more variety of foods to the fortress population. It doesn't need to be overly complicated

and

"Subject: Help! My dwarves keep dying from scurvy!"

My thoughts precisely!

I'd group vitamins and minerals together for simplicity's sake.

You could add fat to the list.

Fat, essential, certainly!

Yes, vitamins and minerals are very similiar. Grouping them together though, I think it would be important to divide them into some sub-categories so that you can't get all the minerals and vitamins you need from a plant that is supposed to be high in a specific kind of mineral but lacking in others. Thinking of it, such subdivision of these categories would be obviously neccesary anyway, so imma merge them now.

[Helgoland]

I really like this idea. Maybe tags in the RAWs for each creature/organism/organ defining what it needs and what it contains, e.g. [REQUIRES:...], [CONTAINS:...] etc.?
Example:
[REQUIRES:1000:500:200] in the format [REQUIRES:CARBOHYDRATES:PROTEIN:FIBER] for every (organic creature, and then tags like [REQUIRES:VITAMIN_A:10] for more specialized stuff  that isn't needed by every animal.
[CONTAINS:2000:100:500] in the same format, plus [CONTAINS:VITAMIN_A:5] in the same manner used for plants. This could also be done in materials, to simulate for example liver having a lot of vitamin A.

Probably still needs some thought though...

[Mushroo]

I eat bread because it gives me carbohydrates that keep me going...

I need meat too, though.

I eat neither bread nor meat, yet I'm healthy... therefore I reject the suggestion that these foods should be required for dwarfs. The only required "food group" should continue to be alcohol.

Personally I think part of the magic/craziness of DF is that a strawberry, a strawberry seeds, and a barrel of strawberry wine all have the exact same nutritional value. Love it!

[PlainTextMan]

I eat neither bread nor meat, yet I'm healthy... therefore I reject the suggestion that these foods should be required for dwarfs. The only required "food group" should continue to be alcohol.

Points taken yes, but you eat/drink other things that give your body similiar or equivalent nutrition. Unless you are on a nutrient drip all the time. My point is rather that food variety should be neccesary for dwarves, as for all living things, and not that they need specifically steak or bread. Also, alchohol isn't the only food group: the Hunger/Starvation status can't be cured with alcohol; "food" is needed, all of which is grouped into a single huge category ATM.

In any case, you can't have as many happy thoughts as me from food because you obviously miss out on things like sandwich with chips and braaivleis (BBQ). :-P

Personally I think part of the magic/craziness of DF is that a strawberry, a strawberry seeds, and a barrel of strawberry wine all have the exact same nutritional value. Love it!

It works for you then. Me I find it boring.

[Montague]

Yes, vitamins and minerals are very similiar. Grouping them together though, I think it would be important to divide them into some sub-categories so that you can't get all the minerals and vitamins you need from a plant that is supposed to be high in a specific kind of mineral but lacking in others. Thinking of it, such subdivision of these categories would be obviously neccesary anyway, so imma merge them now.

Yeah that did occur to me later, different foods would need different minerals/vitamins or there would'nt be much point to it. You'd never get scurvy if you didn't model vitamin C somehow. No need to make put them in different catagories, though, just different types.

Although, nutritional issues and an adequete (perhaps not ideal) diet should be reletively simple to acheive in the game. Nutritional problems develop when people eat the exact same thing in little variety. Crazy people that eat nothing but white bread to a lesser extent, people in poorer countries that have nothing but beans and rice to eat or nothing but flat bread. But adding just a little variety to a basic staple diet clears up the problem pretty handily. People almost never need vitiman suppliments unless they are in fact one of those crazy people that only eats white bread and nothing else.

I do think there should be incentives for providing an even wider variety of foods, beyond the happy thoughts from fulfilling preferences, but the basic requirements to prevent obvious health problems should be reletively simple to acheive.

I really like this idea. Maybe tags in the RAWs for each creature/organism/organ defining what it needs and what it contains, e.g. [REQUIRES:...], [CONTAINS:...] etc.?
Example:
[REQUIRES:1000:500:200] in the format [REQUIRES:CARBOHYDRATES:PROTEIN:FIBER] for every (organic creature, and then tags like [REQUIRES:VITAMIN_A:10] for more specialized stuff  that isn't needed by every animal.
[CONTAINS:2000:100:500] in the same format, plus [CONTAINS:VITAMIN_A:5] in the same manner used for plants. This could also be done in materials, to simulate for example liver having a lot of vitamin A.

That seems like it'd be too much work. I'd abstract it a bit because the materials are already basically defined by types, just not the extact nutritional componet. Meat, fish, bones, fat, plants, alcohol, ect. They'd work good enough for a rough approximation if a dwarf or any other creature that eats. I'd loathe to see every amino acid, trace mineral or vitamin modelled in every single thing that dwarves can eat.

[Mushroo]

Fair enough. I think we must agree that the Plump Helmet is the perfect food, providing 100% of the nutrients (except alcohol) a growing dwarf needs.

[Helgoland]

I'd loathe to see every amino acid, trace mineral or vitamin modelled in every single thing that dwarves can eat.

Well, using a system like this you can implement a rough model (aka only one general "vitamins" substance) while giving modders the opportunity to add more detail. Plus the additional nutrients could be generated "on the fly", without defining a new material, because they are more like properties of a food than a substance on their own-at least on a macroscopic scale, if you know what I mean.

Fair enough. I think we must agree that the Plump Helmet is the perfect food, providing 100% of the nutrients (except alcohol) a growing dwarf needs.

If you start brewing them they truly will 
Can you breed them? I'll so play a fort living only on the carcasses of peaceful, intelligent mushroom-people...

[Buzzing_Beard]

For an adult bee, nutrition is just a matter of calories. Honey or even straight sugar water will meet all their needs.

[PlainTextMan]

Yeah that did occur to me later, different foods would need different minerals/vitamins or there would'nt be much point to it. You'd never get scurvy if you didn't model vitamin C somehow. No need to make put them in different catagories, though, just different types.
...
That seems like it'd be too much work. I'd abstract it a bit because the materials are already basically defined by types, just not the extact nutritional componet. Meat, fish, bones, fat, plants, alcohol, ect. They'd work good enough for a rough approximation if a dwarf or any other creature that eats. I'd loathe to see every amino acid, trace mineral or vitamin modelled in every single thing that dwarves can eat.

That is what I meant by 'categories'. I too would loathe to see every single biochemical listed in the game. Rather, one keeps simple 'categories' of nutrients such as the ones I mentioned, plus you divvy up minerals and vitamins into a few rough categories (on the same conceptual level as protiens and fats, to keep things simple!). These could be eg. "Salts", "Metals", "Iron" * and "Vitamin-A", "Vitamin-B", "Vitamin-C".

* Yes I know metals come in the form of metal salts in the body, and that that is exactly what salts are. Also that iron is a metal. However, salts could represent common metal salts like NaCl, while Iron could have its own category just because it is important for some reason like chopped livers (this is an example) and the other, less common metal salts like Potassium and Magnesium would all be grouped under the remaining category just because they don't need seperate categories. As for the vitamins, I'm trying to make A B and C sound as generic as possible.

I'm not a DF modder but I like the direction in which Helgoland is going, too.

The fact of the matter is that with this type of system, nutrient types can be set up in the RAWs alone to the modder's whim, be they generalized types like "protien" and "carb" or very specific types like "amino-acid-3" or "beta-carotene monooxygenate". However one of my main points is that the whole thing should tend more to the former than the latter ie. simplicity while adding a little complexity to make the game better.

For an adult bee, nutrition is just a matter of calories. Honey or even straight sugar water will meet all their needs.

Yeah, some creatures are simple. I was thinking the whole system needn't even be considered for smaller creatures, as it won't add anything significant to the game.

[Mushroo]

You just know that if ToadyOne starts with this idea, it will become incredibly complex/convoluted. Pandas/elephants that don't starve to death would be a good start.

[PlainTextMan]

You just know that if ToadyOne starts with this idea, it will become incredibly complex/convoluted. Pandas/elephants that don't starve to death would be a good start.

Hah, you put my fear into words . Of course things will get convoluted to some degree with any implementation of anything (my law of programming ) but I'm putting a lot of stress on conceptual simplicity for this idea.

And I think conceptual simplicity is present in my suggestion and some of the other forumers' suggestions here so far. That is something that can't be said of all feature suggestions (some are simply not well formulated IMO, and others which would add value to the game are quite simply inherently complicated).

Also, I believe that proper food variety is inevitable for Dwarf Fortress! I'd love to see it done right sooner rather than later.

[Footkerchief]

Also, sorry if this was already suggested as I did here; in that case please link me to the other post.

There have been a couple threads about aspects of nutrition, but nothing in-depth or comprehensive:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28558.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=42577.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=5065.0

[PlainTextMan]

Thanks, Footkerchief.

Looking at those, I guess this here suggestion is both more generalized and in depth than the others so far. But I keep wondering how it could be further generalized, simplified and made more flexible. Moar input from other forumers could certainly help, especially (I think) modders, but try not to derail the thread anyone. I have a phobia for thread derailment when I started it .

My guess is that a very simple but effective/refined system would appeal to The Designers to consider the idea sometime soon(er).