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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 2468698 times)

Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #810 on: March 22, 2012, 11:45:50 am »

My understanding of the Armor User skill is that all it does is reduce the speed penalty you get from your armor and clothing.
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The World Without Knifebear A much safer world indeed.
regardless, the slime shooter will be completed, come hell or high water, which are both entirely plausible setbacks at this point.

Zona

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #811 on: March 22, 2012, 12:06:17 pm »

My quick question : Will the dwarves of existing forts put on some clothing come the next update? Or will that fix only effect new forts?
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Those lucky dwarves, despite the risk of being stabbed, shots, poisoned, eaten, mauled, enslaved, eviscerated or involved in accidents... at least they dont have to worry about immediate dangers like the heat death of the universe.

Rockphed

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #812 on: March 22, 2012, 12:12:09 pm »

My quick question : Will the dwarves of existing forts put on some clothing come the next update? Or will that fix only effect new forts?

This question is burning in my brain as well.  If they won't, then my current fort (nestled in a hillside full of chalk and magnetite) would need to be restarted.
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Only vaguely. Made of the same substance and put to the same use, but a bit like comparing a castle and a doublewide trailer.

thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #813 on: March 22, 2012, 12:15:22 pm »

Armor were designed not only to stop damage by offering resistance, but also to deflect blows and projectiles. I don't think DF simulates this deflecting characteristic - it only considers the resistance of the materials of the weapon and the armor.

I'm fairly sure that's what the armor user skill is for - in adventurer mode, you tend to get a lot of "deflect the blow" reports.

I haven't done testing on the subject, but I am given the impression that, with the "angle of the blow" mechanics, armor user makes the angle less menacing, and I don't know this, but the hardness of the armor should rationally give a bonus in this regard.

(Who feels up for some arena science?)

"Deflected" is used for everything then, because there is no other word indicating that the blow failed to trespass the armor.
But I think Untelligent is right, Armor skill only reduce the speed penalty.
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dree12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #814 on: March 22, 2012, 02:38:35 pm »

Your right in that he could go any way with it. But I dont think it'd be that easy, is it only velocity (in the game) that is causing all the damage or a mixture of a couple of values? Would halfing the value also stop shattered bones and insta-kills? It wouldnt fix problems such as having no throwning skill and being super accurate and killing people . And knowing how Toady works if he was to target the problem he would also probably go for mass completion of the problem. Probably a system that draws more heavily on attribute values, strength how far thrown/damage, spatial sense/focus on accuracy etc.

I'm fairly sure that the game currently works on a "Force = Mass x Acceleration Velocity" formula.
Shouldn't this be Energy = Mass x Velocity ^ 2? Because this formula isn't any more complicated, I assume this is the one it uses.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #815 on: March 22, 2012, 02:55:48 pm »

Toady, can you expand on what you mean by more consistent led creature behaviour?

Possibly bugs like these.  We'll have to check on those after the release.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #816 on: March 22, 2012, 03:05:59 pm »

My understanding of the Armor User skill is that all it does is reduce the speed penalty you get from your armor and clothing.
"Deflected" is used for everything then, because there is no other word indicating that the blow failed to trespass the armor.
But I think Untelligent is right, Armor skill only reduce the speed penalty.
I'm fairly sure that the game currently works on a "Force = Mass x Acceleration Velocity" formula.
Shouldn't this be Energy = Mass x Velocity ^ 2? Because this formula isn't any more complicated, I assume this is the one it uses.

Then I guess I have some more arena science to chalk up on my "to do" list, unless someone has more certain data.

EDIT: Correcting quote screw-up.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 05:42:01 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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eux0r

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #817 on: March 22, 2012, 03:22:54 pm »

Your right in that he could go any way with it. But I dont think it'd be that easy, is it only velocity (in the game) that is causing all the damage or a mixture of a couple of values? Would halfing the value also stop shattered bones and insta-kills? It wouldnt fix problems such as having no throwning skill and being super accurate and killing people . And knowing how Toady works if he was to target the problem he would also probably go for mass completion of the problem. Probably a system that draws more heavily on attribute values, strength how far thrown/damage, spatial sense/focus on accuracy etc.

I'm fairly sure that the game currently works on a "Force = Mass x Acceleration Velocity" formula.
Shouldn't this be Energy = Mass x Velocity ^ 2? Because this formula isn't any more complicated, I assume this is the one it uses.

either youre referencing to E=m*c for the equation between mass and energy, where c is the speed of light and therefore a constant, not a variable as need to calculate any velocities effect, or youre referring to the kinetic energy where E=1/2 m*v but energy is generally not used very often to characterise the strength of an attack. one usually uses the force F for that. but as kohaku(edit: kohaku->dree, sry, initial identity-swap was my mistake edit2: and back to kohaku it is, that erroneous quote confused me!) already hinted at, its formula is F=m*a where a is the acceleration which is dv/dt, and which is more problematic than just using m*v as an approximation(although a pretty crappy one).

(edit: the game uses sheer strength and such to calculate the effectiveness of armour. all those are related to forces, not energies)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 03:34:46 pm by eux0r »
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dree12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #818 on: March 22, 2012, 04:40:56 pm »

Your right in that he could go any way with it. But I dont think it'd be that easy, is it only velocity (in the game) that is causing all the damage or a mixture of a couple of values? Would halfing the value also stop shattered bones and insta-kills? It wouldnt fix problems such as having no throwning skill and being super accurate and killing people . And knowing how Toady works if he was to target the problem he would also probably go for mass completion of the problem. Probably a system that draws more heavily on attribute values, strength how far thrown/damage, spatial sense/focus on accuracy etc.

I'm fairly sure that the game currently works on a "Force = Mass x Acceleration Velocity" formula.
Shouldn't this be Energy = Mass x Velocity ^ 2? Because this formula isn't any more complicated, I assume this is the one it uses.

either youre referencing to E=m*c for the equation between mass and energy, where c is the speed of light and therefore a constant, not a variable as need to calculate any velocities effect, or youre referring to the kinetic energy where E=1/2 m*v but energy is generally not used very often to characterise the strength of an attack. one usually uses the force F for that. but as kohaku(edit: kohaku->dree, sry, initial identity-swap was my mistake edit2: and back to kohaku it is, that erroneous quote confused me!) already hinted at, its formula is F=m*a where a is the acceleration which is dv/dt, and which is more problematic than just using m*v as an approximation(although a pretty crappy one).

(edit: the game uses sheer strength and such to calculate the effectiveness of armour. all those are related to forces, not energies)
Kinetic energy, yeah (the reason I left out 1/2 was because work doesn't really exist in DF, so units don't matter). What I mean is that the collision of two objects not accellerating (ie, bolts etc.) relates to kinetic energy and not forces. For example, a bolt that becomes embedded in a body part will move the body part even if the bolt were accellerating (ie, no force on the bolt).

m*v (linear momentum) is not a good approximation at all for m*a. Even the units are completely different. Force is measured in kg*m/s^2, while mv is measured in kg*m/s.
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eux0r

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #819 on: March 22, 2012, 08:38:05 pm »

well, yeah, i said its a crappy approximation, i know about the units, also i know that a function usually is not proportional to its derivative, but its at least some kind of dependency and could pose as a placeholder for the real calculations. i dont know how much time toady already invested in this kind of thing since linear momentum is exactly what youre talking about when you dont want to bother about what happens inside the bolt/armour/bodypart.
even when the bolt gets stuck in the target afterwards, its about what kind of forces he applies to the materials involved. its true that the energy to apply the force is just the kinetic energy, but when checking, whether the bolt is piercing the plate or not, its about the forces, their absolute values and directions inside the material and its structure. there can be force applied to a wall too. also, while hitting the target, the bolt is decelerated and the target is being deformed, which is where you see movement even when the bolt gets stuck. if someone wants to know more about forces inside of materials, which can get quite complicated, they best start reading around a little on stress and and all the material values. there is a magmawiki-page on "material science" to get started and find the vocabulary one needs to look things up more thoroughly.

edit: seriously, i need to start thinking about what im doing before hitting enter, or at least read it once myself...
heres the link
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 08:45:11 pm by eux0r »
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dree12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #820 on: March 22, 2012, 08:51:21 pm »

well, yeah, i said its a crappy approximation, i know about the units, also i know that function usually is not proportional to its derivative, but its at least some kind of dependency and could pose as a placeholder for the real calculations. i dont know how much time toady already invested in this kind of thing.
It's not a crappy approximation; it simply isn't an approximation. In practice, almost no functions are proportional to their derivatives; the linear function I gave earlier demonstrates this well. If I shoot an arrow, I'm not applying force to it (well, initially I am, but after it leaves the bow). The force is zero and only the kinetic energy matters.

The approximation isn't even completely fine with hammerstrikes, which most certainly do have force applied. The only time where it applies is when the strikes take exactly the same amount of time each; however, this likely happens in dwarf fortress.
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eux0r

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #821 on: March 22, 2012, 09:06:39 pm »

well, yeah, i said its a crappy approximation, i know about the units, also i know that function usually is not proportional to its derivative, but its at least some kind of dependency and could pose as a placeholder for the real calculations. i dont know how much time toady already invested in this kind of thing.
It's not a crappy approximation; it simply isn't an approximation. In practice, almost no functions are proportional to their derivatives; the linear function I gave earlier demonstrates this well. If I shoot an arrow, I'm not applying force to it (well, initially I am, but after it leaves the bow). The force is zero and only the kinetic energy matters.

The approximation isn't even completely fine with hammerstrikes, which most certainly do have force applied. The only time where it applies is when the strikes take exactly the same amount of time each; however, this likely happens in dwarf fortress.

ok, wait, im having trouble understanding everything you want to say. also, after reading what i wrote again, i realize its kinda sounding strange. what i mean is _not_ to approximate the equation F=m*a with F=m*v _but_ to estimate the damaging potential of a projectile by using its impulse p=m*v.
next: when a bolt is in the air, then youre right, there is no force. but while its in the process of hitting its target, a force is being applied, on both the
bolt as well as the location on the target, where it strikes. the bolt is applying force for a very limited time, yes, but its a finite time which does not equal zero. when swinging a weapon in close combat you can stay in contact with the target much longer, but that does not mean its in any way different from a projectile in regards to applying forces.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 09:23:56 pm by eux0r »
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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #822 on: March 22, 2012, 11:35:44 pm »

Ooh, animals trained while children won't revert to a wild state.
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The World Without Knifebear A much safer world indeed.
regardless, the slime shooter will be completed, come hell or high water, which are both entirely plausible setbacks at this point.

Torchy

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #823 on: March 23, 2012, 02:22:59 am »

Ooh, animals trained while children won't revert to a wild state.

Not quite the case. Based on what Toady's said: offspring of an animal that has been trained won't revert to a wild state because they inherit some of the tameness from their parent. This means that the "tameness cap" for them is that much higher, making it possible to train them up to the level from which they never regress, a level which animals caught and trained from the wild can't quite reach. If you went and caught a wild horse foal in a cage trap and trained it, it'd be just as unable to make it up to a shelf-stable tameless level as one caught as an adult. But its offspring would be able to get there.
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #824 on: March 23, 2012, 03:17:34 am »

Going back to the discussion about Kohaku's "bug" report of thrown bolts...

...I'd say that "bugs" like these deserve to be in the bugtracker because it's basically the only way how to make Toady aware of them. We are the testers, we are supposed to report discrepancies like these. The bugtracker itself is the most pleasant way to do it, and once they're there Toady himself can choose whether and when to fix them. The important thing is that he knows about them. I don't see any sort of pressure being involved in this.

Sure, the line between a reportable unbalanced feature like throwing being too effective, and really just a subjective peeve, is a blurry one. But I'd still think that the fact that thrown bolts are more effective than fired shots is something that Toady would like to be aware of.

Just my two cents.

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