Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 28 29 [30] 31 32 ... 46

Author Topic: The "How Does Minecart" Thread  (Read 216164 times)

khearn

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #435 on: May 27, 2012, 08:46:03 pm »

Put two conditions down - send it when its 25% full, and send it after 14 days, for example. They'll send it when either condition is met, so if they only get it 5% full after 2 weeks, they'll just send it along.

The problem with that is that if it's 0% full after 2 weeks, they'll still send it along empty. I think I'll go with EvilTwin's idea of locking a door. The glass furnace, stockpile, and track stop are all in one room, with a single tile wide opening to it, so adding a door will be easy enough. The problem is that the track goes down a ramp and is accessible from a few levels below. So I'll have to put in a door on the track with pressure plates that will open it when a cart comes from either side, but not when a dwarf does. I'm assuming that will work right, We'll see.
Logged
Have them killed. Nothing solves a problem quite as effectively as simply having it killed.

foop

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #436 on: May 28, 2012, 01:56:50 pm »

I note a previous post above where someone noted that friction settings below "highest" don't seem to do much.  Can anyone elaborate on this?

I've just dug a huge track system to the lava levels, consisting of 4 tracks in parallel.  It had to navigate through the pillars in the caverns to avoid breaching them (I'm in a haunted, zombie-filled biome but that's another story).  As a result, there are large stretches of straight ramps followed by U-turns on the flat.

Of course, trucks sent down this derail at the first U-turn.  I've tried putting a stop at the bottom of the ramp on the flat with "higher" friction, but it does nothing.  I can't seem to put track stops on the ramps.

Any ideas to stop the derailments?
Logged

Uristocrat

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dwarven Railgunner
    • View Profile
    • DF Wiki User Page
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #437 on: May 28, 2012, 02:59:22 pm »

I note a previous post above where someone noted that friction settings below "highest" don't seem to do much.  Can anyone elaborate on this?

I've just dug a huge track system to the lava levels, consisting of 4 tracks in parallel.  It had to navigate through the pillars in the caverns to avoid breaching them (I'm in a haunted, zombie-filled biome but that's another story).  As a result, there are large stretches of straight ramps followed by U-turns on the flat.

Of course, trucks sent down this derail at the first U-turn.  I've tried putting a stop at the bottom of the ramp on the flat with "higher" friction, but it does nothing.  I can't seem to put track stops on the ramps.

Any ideas to stop the derailments?

Walls around each individual track.  That will be tricky with so many side-by-side tracks, but maybe you can split them off somehow.
Logged
You could have berries on the rocks and the dwarves would say it was "berry gneiss."
You should die horribly for this. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

EvilTwin

  • Bay Watcher
  • likes skeletons for their afros
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #438 on: May 28, 2012, 04:33:33 pm »

I note a previous post above where someone noted that friction settings below "highest" don't seem to do much.  Can anyone elaborate on this?

I've just dug a huge track system to the lava levels, consisting of 4 tracks in parallel.  It had to navigate through the pillars in the caverns to avoid breaching them (I'm in a haunted, zombie-filled biome but that's another story).  As a result, there are large stretches of straight ramps followed by U-turns on the flat.

Of course, trucks sent down this derail at the first U-turn.  I've tried putting a stop at the bottom of the ramp on the flat with "higher" friction, but it does nothing.  I can't seem to put track stops on the ramps.

Any ideas to stop the derailments?

Could you probably fit something like this in?
Code: [Select]
***W**
**W*F=
*W*F#=
W*F##=
*F###=
*||||*

* is any tile you want, W is wall, F is SE-corner track, = is WE track, # is omnidir track, | is NS track

This way each cart is kept from derailing by the diagonal wall, and the inner lines can cross over the other ones. Instead of this setup, you could also place rollers in counter direction, they will slow down the cart if set up in the "wrong" direction.
Logged

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #439 on: May 28, 2012, 04:42:58 pm »

guide the carts or use several trackstops on higher
Logged
Voted SpearBreakers Meatpieologist by Mr Frog
DADeathinacan has Videos
Thanks to Towerdude for the avatar.
An Indeterminate Arms Race, where the players choose to be cults with technological artifacts alone in the world.

Warning, may appear to be angrier than intended

Martin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #440 on: May 28, 2012, 09:13:55 pm »

I note a previous post above where someone noted that friction settings below "highest" don't seem to do much.  Can anyone elaborate on this?


I wanted to see whether stops at lower friction levels could be used to control when carts take turns, make jumps over pits, etc since you can hook pressure plates and levers and whatnot to stops. So I created a line with a cart pushed by a dwarf. I put various stops at different settings on the line, and any setting below 'highest friction' at most slowed the cart down by 2 tiles in 100 ticks. The highest would stop it dead.

xmoffitt

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #441 on: May 29, 2012, 07:05:43 pm »

I wanted to see whether stops at lower friction levels could be used to control when carts take turns, make jumps over pits, etc since you can hook pressure plates and levers and whatnot to stops. So I created a line with a cart pushed by a dwarf. I put various stops at different settings on the line, and any setting below 'highest friction' at most slowed the cart down by 2 tiles in 100 ticks. The highest would stop it dead.

I am also doing experiments to try to determine the "friction values" of the various stops.  I'm using Sadrice's technique to measure the pushed runout distance on a 200+ straight track with various features.  Here are some initial findings:

  • no track stops - 201
  • any number of lowest track stops - 201
  • low track stops decrease the stop distance by 4 each.   1->197, 2->194, 3->189, 4->185
  • medium track stops decrease the stop distance by around 40, but it depends on where in the track they are placed.   1 medium track stop ranges from 148 to 159 stop distance.

I also have a spreadsheet of "delay time" on each tile of the 200 straight distance run.    I've graphed the numbers and here are some findings from that:
  • The initial speed is 5 ticks/tile, or 200 tile/ kilotick
  • Speed decreases linearly over time (constant acceleration)

I'd also be happy to post/share the data, or save file if anyone is interested.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 07:21:37 pm by xmoffitt »
Logged

SmileyMan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #442 on: May 30, 2012, 12:37:17 pm »

Did a bit of experimentation with shotguns as a practical fortress defence.  In particular, I was tring to find out which ammo worked well, when the intention was to reload and fire repeatedly.  Some findings:

1) Boulders: quick to load, taking only five per cart, but despite their massive size they seem to be decidedly non-lethal.  Most impacts involve only bruises, and any more serious injuries are more likely from secondary damage due to the target.  Also, with only five submunitions per shot, the hit probability is quite low.

2) General observation: if your ammo can be stored in a bin, and you have the source stockpile for the cannon set to have bins, then dwarves will load up whole bins....including the bin, which defeats the point.  Solution is of course two stockpiles, a binned pile set to give to an unbinned pile, set to give to the cannon.

3) General observation 2: If you have a cart set to push at 100% capacity, and you change the desired items mid-fill, then it will never reach capacity and never launch.  Issue a temporary timed always launch order to despatch the mixed-ammo cart.

4) Blocks: probably the best cheap ammo - you can create hundreds of them early game once you hit stone, and if you don't need to weaponize them, they can be used for prettier buildings!  100 per shot can take some time to load though so you might want to fire at 25/50/75%, and you need to set up a two-stage stockpile (see above)because they're binnable.  Also, 100 blocks takes up quite a lot of space, so your ammo store needs to be pretty large and well planned in advance if you want enough reserve for several shots.  Damage wise they are superior to boulders, typically shattering bones or dislocating joints.  A hit on an unarmoured chest is nearly always a fractured rib through the lung or heart, so without access to medical help they're done for.

5) Spikes/Corkscrews: upping the lethality on highly wooded maps.  You will need to create a LOT - about 75 spikes/corkscrews are required for a 25% full shot.  Take some cheap wood with you, and spend some points on a skilled carpenter, because quality makes a difference - a *menacing wooden spike* will cut and main, where the standard quality equivalent will scratch and bruise.  Devastating against unarmoured opponents - an 80 spike shot will cause targets at 7-10 square range to be hit by between five and fifteen projectiles.  The high number makes reloading very slow though.  Verdict, more effort than blocks for early ammo, but much more lethal and with the advantage of a skilled carpenter to make the beds for the hospital you'll need after testing.  Warning: dwarves caught in the blast have a high chance of being killed before they can be given medical attention.  In testing, corkscrews were slightly more effective than spikes, causing hand and finger severing, and dealing two internal hits compared to only one for the spikes.  Targets that aren't killed by blood loss inevitably give in to pain from multiple lacerations, so could be safely mopped up by melee infantry.

6) General Observation 3: Once you have defined a stop, you can remove the launch condition, meaning you can have it loaded ready with ammo to fire.  Just add a suitable launch condition when the enemy is in range and so long as a hauler is close by, you should have quite fine control over when the shot is taken.

That's it for now, next tests are to try some metal trap components and spears, and also to see the effects on armoured targets. Any requests welcome, once I've mopped up the blood....again!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 02:27:19 pm by SmileyMan »
Logged
In a fat-fingered moment while setting up another military squad I accidentally created a captain of the guard rather than a militia captain.  His squad of near-legendary hammerdwarves equipped with high quality silver hammers then took it upon themselves to dispense justice to all the mandate breakers in the fortress.  It was quite messy.

Martin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #443 on: May 30, 2012, 02:45:16 pm »

6) General Observation 3: Once you have defined a stop, you can remove the launch condition, meaning you can have it loaded ready with ammo to fire.  Just add a suitable launch condition when the enemy is in range and so long as a hauler is close by, you should have quite fine control over when the shot is taken.


Put your hauling stop on a powered roller and hook the gear powering the roller either to a lever or pressure plate. That way you can have multiple parallel lines that all fire simultaneously.

Urist Da Vinci

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NATURAL_SKILL: ENGINEER:4]
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #444 on: May 30, 2012, 07:50:39 pm »

...
3) General observation 2: If you have a cart set to push at 100% capacity, and you change the desired items mid-fill, then it will never reach capacity and never launch.  Issue a temporary timed always launch order to despatch the mixed-ammo cart.
...

Go into advanced and hit "L" to toggle between "when full of desired items" and "when full of any items". Cart launches with mixed ammo.

Robotic

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #445 on: June 01, 2012, 01:45:41 am »

That's it for now, next tests are to try some metal trap components and spears, and also to see the effects on armoured targets. Any requests welcome, once I've mopped up the blood....again!

I'd like to see statues.  Bonus points if they're made out of bituminous coal and on fire.
Logged

SmileyMan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #446 on: June 01, 2012, 03:16:56 am »

I'd like to see statues.  Bonus points if they're made out of bituminous coal and on fire.
Hmmm, I'm not an expert on controlled fires, so i don't fancy trying that and accidentally killing everyone.  I have now set up a fort with six parallel cartcannons covering the approach to the entrance.  Unfortunately, the map seems very light on metals, so I'm using bauxite boulders for ammo now, but I've just mined out some platinum, so a perhaps a platinum statue cannon might suffice? They'll certainly be heavy....

No gobbos turning up either.  I've had to test the cannon on migrant waves, to good effect.  I have proved my observation from testing about boulders - they don't kill often enough (although great surgeon training when used on migrants!) and there are just too few, so some targets escape.  I'm just in the process of carving a few hundred bauxite blocks.
Logged
In a fat-fingered moment while setting up another military squad I accidentally created a captain of the guard rather than a militia captain.  His squad of near-legendary hammerdwarves equipped with high quality silver hammers then took it upon themselves to dispense justice to all the mandate breakers in the fortress.  It was quite messy.

eLcHi

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #447 on: June 01, 2012, 05:34:56 am »

Anyone found a reliable way to make a pushed cart go down 20+ Z-Levels AND being able to use the same Track to go back up again?

I tried doing 3 ramps, then a u-turn, then 3 ramps etc etc and putting Stops with highest friction on the u-turn. Full cart goes down fine but spills itīs contents somewhere on the way. Empty cart stops at the first Track Stop.
Logged

Martin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #448 on: June 01, 2012, 10:08:53 am »

I think people doing large downhill runs are trying to make them too compact. My guess is that you need 2-4 high friction (not highest) stops per every z of descent to keep the speed in check going down. Stops can be hooked to levers and pressure plates so you can either deactivate all of the stops when you power the rollers to take the cart back up. I haven't worked out the timing between pressure plates and stops, but if it's instant like with doors, you could just put a pressure plate after each set of stop on each level on the way down, so that on the way up, the cart hits the plate first, deactivates the stops, lets the cart pass over.

jwest23

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #449 on: June 01, 2012, 10:27:21 am »

Stops can be hooked to levers and pressure plates so you can either deactivate all of the stops when you power the rollers to take the cart back up.

I hadn't realized that at all.  Thanks for posting, Martin.  I had started planning out circuits, which is an arduous way of dealing with the problem, at best.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 28 29 [30] 31 32 ... 46