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Author Topic: The "How Does Minecart" Thread  (Read 216203 times)

Snaake

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #570 on: June 28, 2012, 03:16:57 pm »

My question (that I hope hasn't been answered, I've read an awful lot of this thread) is, how fast do the minecarts have to be going to do the shotgun?
I've tried a dozen or so Z levels of ramps, no dice.
Max length roller running at high speed plus two Z levels. No dice.
Am I missing something? Do I just need to have even longer ramps and/or rollers?

Am I messing the ramps up (if the channeling and resulting track are from left to right, you want to build West ramps right?)?
IIRC 3 z-levels will get you enough to shotgun, how is your trigger setup? (The wall)

It's, well, a wall. At the end of the tracks, the tracks lead straight into it.

And you're sure you have an open space or fortification in the space right above the wall?

3 z-levels should be enough, according to all I've read. If you have lots more, you might have the minecart going so fast it gets airborne at some point instead of going down the next ramp, and this would lower it's speed (due to to hitting a wall). I'm not sure if a 8- or 9-z-ramp would be enough to get it airborne though.
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Snaake

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #571 on: July 06, 2012, 08:10:12 am »

""I ain't dead!" said the thread...

I just thought of a new solution to the dilemma of massive minecart capacities that IIRC hadn't been mentioned in this thread (I have read it all, but not in the last few days). The specific case is these sandbags:
I'm trying to have a minecart route to take sand bags from a stockpile next to my glass furnace near the surface, and dump them down a shaft to land near my magma glass furnace down by the magma sea. The problem I have is that 11 sandbags only makes the cart 3% full, and the lowest setting I can set is to have it move when 25% full. It looks like that will be about 100 sandbags, and I don't really want to fill that many. I could just make it go after a time period, regardless of how full it is, but then I'll end up with an empty cart being shuttled back and forth when I'm not doing any glassmaking. That seems kind of silly. Am I missing a way to set the departure condition to something like 5% full? Or some other solution?

So, someone mentioned that minecarts that hit other minecarts that are on the track will transfer their momentum to the minecart in the front. My preliminary testing with the few dwarves I have left (6 alive; 2 kids and a babbling baroness included) in my minecart science fort indicates that minecart A (the one with speed initially) does indeed transfer most of it's momentum to B, often even coming to a complete stop.

In any case, the specific setup that I tested, and which works, is as follows:
Code: [Select]
GABR===Where G is a gear bringing power to A. A has tracks, 1 tile of rollers, whichever speed you want (low is equivalent to a dwarven push, high will push your cart about 4 times as far), a hauling route stop with no settings, and minecart A. B has (surprise!) minecart B, tracks, the site of another hauling route stop with the orders to fill up the cart at it, but no push/guide/ride orders. A also has the key to this scheme, a pressure plate that turns on the gear G when triggered. R is another (optional) set of 1-tile rollers, which can be powered continuously if you want. = are tracks going off to the right.

So basically, dwarves will fill up the cart at B. When it's full enough, the pressure plate will cause A to slam into B, sending B off, either on it's own momentum, or with an extra boost from R. Pressure plates can be set with intervals of 50 Urists (sand bags weigh 3 Urists), so you should get a lot more control over when to set the carts moving than the 0/25/50/75/100 available with hauling orders.

Note that if your gear is transmitting power when you link it to the pressure plate, you'll have to set the plate to be triggered as long as it's under your desired weight; if it's disengaged when you link them, you can set it to trigger when your desired weight is exceeded. Also something to take into account is that you should only use carts made out of the same material (well, most wood is relatively similar, so that might be ok), so as not to screw up your finely-tuned weight criteria.

So, feedback/questions?


P.S. About that minecart science fort I mentioned earlier: I've got loads of minecart science related to friction amounts, general minecart behaviour verifications, and the strength of rollers to post. Also suggestions for further research areas etc. I was thinking I'd do it in this thread, as a more expansive followup to what Sadrice and xmoffitt have already written (posts #200, #230, #441 and #488). By loads I mean that my full write-up is currently about 7 pages, but I'll be editing it some before posting here (and will probably partition some of the setup details into spoiler tags, so you can just skim the results). I'll get on it once this fort dies to the tantrum spiral. :P


edit: note that if you have A&B right next to each other as above, you should probably have something less than highest rollers at A, since with highest A still rolls for quite a while. You really only need A to push B 1 tile, so weak rollers should be fine.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 11:06:51 am by Snaake »
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TerryDactyl

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #572 on: July 07, 2012, 12:26:19 pm »

I'm a little drunk. With regards to the cart-teleportation 'problem', it occurs to me that there may be something Very Complex going on here, which we (mere mortals) have Little Hope to Understand.

Quote
Capntastic:   There's this question here, I don't know if it's really relevant but I think it'd be interesting for the outtake selection, but someone asking about the flat chains in Banach spaces, which a lot of people are curious about. Did you want to give that a shot? If people want your rambling, they're going to get it.
Toady:   I guess so, I guess they well.
Capntastic:   'Dear Dr. Adams, since the upcoming podcast is about science and mathematics is the queen of sciences perhaps you could give in laydwarfs terms a general overview of your PhD dissertation, flat chains in Banach spaces.
Toady:   Well let's see what I can remember, it's been a while since I've thought about this stuff, so I'm sure I'm going to forget lots of things.
Menendez:   (backing)
Toady:   (mathematics in chorus - it doesn't transcribe well) So in general if you've got ... my paper kind of, overall we're considering what are called minminal surfaces so if you take ... given a wire, you've got a minimal surface etcetera, etcetera, so what are the parameters you need? ... It's not the straight line distance between two points anymore but kind of like how far ... If you change the distance function on that, so maybe you've heard of the taxi cab distance in New York City, like how many blocks up, how many blocks over, that kind of thing ... But in any case, I've rambled a bit, but I just generally proved that these minimal surfaces exist in more complicated spaces and there's been a lot of subsequent work, and work that was going on at the same time in more general spaces, all kinds of different stuff. Fascinating, fascinating stuff ... I haven't really been keeping up the past couple of years.
Toady:   I guess you could take the twenty minute rambling there, let it ramble for three minutes but then take another minute and a half of the rambling and put it over my original rambling, so it's like there's two of me talking, then put a third one on it, and it'll just kind of degenerate.

I don't understand this, least of all right now. But... has anyone here got a solid grasp on Tarn's Thesis?

JarinArenos

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #573 on: July 07, 2012, 01:26:45 pm »

I've been noticing some different behavior in the new version in regards to minecart auto-quantum-stockpiling. In .34.11, I could place a minecart stop directly on a constructed track stop, with no track at all, order "push X" where X was the direction the maximum-friction stop was set to dump, and the cart would simply dump right next to it. Now, however, any time the dwarves push the cart, it goes flying off in that direction and has to be retrieved. Was there a change in track-stop mechanics?
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #574 on: July 07, 2012, 04:53:21 pm »

I've been noticing some different behavior in the new version in regards to minecart auto-quantum-stockpiling. In .34.11, I could place a minecart stop directly on a constructed track stop, with no track at all, order "push X" where X was the direction the maximum-friction stop was set to dump, and the cart would simply dump right next to it. Now, however, any time the dwarves push the cart, it goes flying off in that direction and has to be retrieved. Was there a change in track-stop mechanics?

Well, to start with, you can simply delete the push order and the the quantum dumping will still work, no friction necessary.

Sutremaine

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #575 on: July 07, 2012, 05:30:37 pm »

I imagine a dumping track stop as being set up as a kind of extreme speed bump that nudges up part of the bottom of the minecart to the point where everything falls out on one side. If you leave a minecart on the highest part of the bump, the minecart is always tilted enough to make anything fall out of it.

This mental depiction of a minecart and track stop gives you the in-game behaviour of a dumping track stop always dumping items whenever a mine cart is on it.
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Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

Snaake

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #576 on: July 07, 2012, 06:08:14 pm »

I've been noticing some different behavior in the new version in regards to minecart auto-quantum-stockpiling. In .34.11, I could place a minecart stop directly on a constructed track stop, with no track at all, order "push X" where X was the direction the maximum-friction stop was set to dump, and the cart would simply dump right next to it. Now, however, any time the dwarves push the cart, it goes flying off in that direction and has to be retrieved. Was there a change in track-stop mechanics?

I'm not sure I understand you regarding version/minecart changes between them. AFAIK, 34.11 IS the new version, and nothing regarding minecarts has changessince 34.09 or something.

Anyway, with the simple "no tracks, just a dumping track stop" setup I think you have, you shouldn't need any push/guide/ride orders, just settings for what gets loaded (and instadumped). Just remove those.
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Tsuchigumo550

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #577 on: July 09, 2012, 01:54:57 pm »

I can't get my stones to shotgun, and there's open space right above the shotgun room. The only thing is that the cart goes off the track, but it should have more than enough speed (instakilled two dorfs, injured many more) to launch them out.

I have one tile of open space above the fortification it slams into.


Oh dear, now I can't even get ramps working. How the fuck do i make those again? No matter what I do, they're all OMFG UNUSABLE.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 03:33:11 pm by Tsuchigumo550 »
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Snaake

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #578 on: July 09, 2012, 03:45:17 pm »

IIRC it's enough for it to slam into a wall, and this has been the case in most working implementations people have used (like the "automatic minecart shotgun" that fired several shots/carts within a few seconds). The contents that get shotgunned fly from the tile above where the cart slams, and then fly forward in a parabolic arc (possible also skidding along the ground?).

You need open space above where the cart slams into the wall. Above the wall, you need open space, or a fortification if you don't want flyers getting into your shotgun's operating side. You should probably have the upper z-level mined out in the target room, too. From your post, I'm reading that you probably have at least the two later points done, but maybe not the open space above the cart?
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DrKillPatient

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #579 on: July 09, 2012, 06:38:21 pm »

What's the best way to reliably load military dwarves into minecarts?
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Snaake

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #580 on: July 09, 2012, 07:36:54 pm »

What's the best way to reliably load military dwarves into minecarts?

IIRC correctly what I've read, station them in a room with a hauling stop, lock the doors, cancel the station order. Something like that.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 02:19:59 pm by Snaake »
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Tsuchigumo550

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #581 on: July 09, 2012, 08:58:12 pm »

Ok, now it's a lot more simple. No more item shotguns for now, but I still need help.

I've constructed a rather simple multilevel track (all ramps good, etc) that should load up stones, be pushed down four Z levels, turn twice, and hit a track stop that auto-unloads the stones. From there, I set up a guide to here, then guide this way, then this way, so that it follows the track when guiding the cart back up. There's space on either side of the track.

The first (loading) and second (unloading) have those ! set track dir/connect. The wiki helped me this far, but I'm confused at the track stop (I think it's the problem.) I deconstructed the track, laid down a highest friction autounloading track stop then placed the route stop on it, telling my dorf to guide once the cart was empty of all desireable items (I set this to all of them, any of them, no matter what. So, empty cart.)

The first loading stop set to go any time at 50% full is set to take from a nearby stone pile ( a few spaces away) and accept any stone-type material. Can't figure out why the tracks hate me today.'

the auto-unloader isn't set to empty to a stockpile, because it'll empty itself anyway. I might try to set it to guide always?

Nope, neither "always" nor "when empty of desired items" seems to work, neither does "when empty of any items."
Well, fuck.

Thought I had this thing fixed because the bottom part was cycling back up to the 1st. Now it's going west, forming the circle.
So the four stops are: top, load, go east at 50% full by push
bottom: trackstop, guide when emptied to west
bottom corner: in line with bottom, guide north
top corner: in line with bottom corner, guide east.

Problematics:
Top, Bottom.


haha no.

It's not acting right because either the cart goes flying (ramp down, three straight, ramp down, etc) or it just goes too fast and it completely blows the track turn. Track stop time.

Huh. It seems to me that fucking around with track stops (breaking the rails) after the cart starts working right will screw up stockpiles associated with the stops, effectively clearing them out. Happened twice, but it could just be them warping away or becoming unseen, IDK.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 09:24:07 pm by Tsuchigumo550 »
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Alright you two. Attempt to murder each other. Last one standing gets to participate in the next test.
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Snaake

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #582 on: July 10, 2012, 06:07:11 am »

...I deconstructed the track, laid down a highest friction autounloading track stop then placed the route stop on it, telling my dorf to guide once the cart was empty of all desireable items (I set this to all of them, any of them, no matter what. So, empty cart.)
...
It's not acting right because either the cart goes flying (ramp down, three straight, ramp down, etc) or it just goes too fast and it completely blows the track turn. Track stop time.

Huh. It seems to me that fucking around with track stops (breaking the rails) after the cart starts working right will screw up stockpiles associated with the stops, effectively clearing them out. Happened twice, but it could just be them warping away or becoming unseen, IDK.

Ok, first of all, if you're pushing carts (not guiding), all track stops should have a track underneath, I think. So you removing the track from underneath was unnecessary/possibly harmful to smooth operation. Second, if you're having carts derail on turns, just build 1 wall tile in the tile it would first derail to.

Regarding stockpiles getting "cleared out" do you mean the items disappear? If so, this is probably a known bug about nearby items (16x16 area?) teleporting to a deconstruction site when removing constructions (like tracks, but not track stops, I think).
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Steforian

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #583 on: July 10, 2012, 09:49:01 am »

I'm a bit confused with the whole stockpile system with mine-carts. You see i set up a stockpile at the entrance to a mine to hold coal and hematite, and a linked mine-cart to carry the items to another stockpile deep in my fortress, but my dwarves keep filling in the first mine-cart stockpile from halfway across the map, when i only want the items from the one specific mine.... anyone know how i could remedy this?
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Steforian

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #584 on: July 11, 2012, 10:29:44 pm »

I'm a bit confused with the whole stockpile system with mine-carts. You see i set up a stockpile at the entrance to a mine to hold coal and hematite, and a linked mine-cart to carry the items to another stockpile deep in my fortress, but my dwarves keep filling in the first mine-cart stockpile from halfway across the map, when i only want the items from the one specific mine.... anyone know how i could remedy this?
*Bump* Still need help here.
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