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Author Topic: AmeriPol thread  (Read 2861958 times)

MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47460 on: January 31, 2022, 02:08:18 am »

The best description I've seen of fascism is Eco Umberto's Ur-Fascism. And the republican party fits really well into these descriptions. They are most definitely fascist.
No it doesn't. Calling random right-wing parties fascist merely dilutes the term.



Really? How many times do you see republicans citing tradition as a reason something should be kept? They hug the bible and the constitution and declare them perfect documents that must be followed and not changed.

They reject modernism. You yourself called them reactionary.

They clearly distrust the intellectual world. Climate change, the vaccine, and solar energy are part of a big conspiracy to them.

They clearly attack anyone who disagrees with them. Just look at Liz Cheney. Kicked from the republican party for daring to vote to impeach Trump for inciting the coup attempt.

I'm not going to go over every point, but it's pretty clear that these descriptions stick to them like glue, and "nu-uh" doesn't cut it as a counter argument.
Fascism requires totalitarianism. Without totalitarianism, it is simply conservatism. Never once has the USA been totalitarian.

And anyways most of what you brought up only pertains to the most extreme wing of the Republicans, the worst of the worst. Most of the moderate ones I met online were... fine.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47461 on: January 31, 2022, 05:44:39 am »

One can be fascist in opinion even if you personally have no power to 'totalify' anything, methinks. Your intention or hope to do so (especially when backed up by whatever actions might accompany this) should qualify in that respect.

I don't think everyone called a fascist is rightfully so (e.g., calling for sensible precautionary public health measures needn't be a Josef Mengele thing) and not even everyone sporting a hackenkreuz or even parading with a bunch of sticks (context is everything!) and so we do risk overusing and diluting the term - or even entirely misdirecting it, accidentally or wilfully, with Godwin maybe having something to comment about in some cases.

But don't imagine that by a strict measure we can't have a kind of Sorites Paradox where some scenario is clearly not fascist, this other scenerio is clearly not fascist, all scenarios are clearly not fascist until... Isn't it now actually fascist? Don't let me prescribe at what exact point it definitely will be, but accept the possibility that there are (non-inevitable) paths that taste definitely of fascism. Exactly what that topnote taste is, and what things taste of it, are of course up for discussion.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47462 on: January 31, 2022, 06:01:52 am »

One can be fascist in opinion even if you personally have no power to 'totalify' anything, methinks. Your intention or hope to do so (especially when backed up by whatever actions might accompany this) should qualify in that respect.
They have, at many points, had the ability to turn the US into a one-party fascist dictatorship. They didn't. The people who do want that tend to be Republicans but they're a minority.

But don't imagine that by a strict measure we can't have a kind of Sorites Paradox where some scenario is clearly not fascist, this other scenerio is clearly not fascist, all scenarios are clearly not fascist until... Isn't it now actually fascist? Don't let me prescribe at what exact point it definitely will be, but accept the possibility that there are (non-inevitable) paths that taste definitely of fascism. Exactly what that topnote taste is, and what things taste of it, are of course up for discussion.
Well from reading and studying a lot of fascist states I see a clear gap between even the "softest" one (Francoist Spain) and Trump's America. It was closer than usual sure, but mostly because it was more right-wing.
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47463 on: January 31, 2022, 06:43:28 am »

I'm not sure you're arguing against what I'm saying. But I can see where part of what I said about part of what you said might have become easily unlinked by our respective thoughts on what was being argued.
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Micro102

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47464 on: January 31, 2022, 08:16:49 am »

Fascism requires totalitarianism. Without totalitarianism, it is simply conservatism. Never once has the USA been totalitarian.

And anyways most of what you brought up only pertains to the most extreme wing of the Republicans, the worst of the worst. Most of the moderate ones I met online were... fine.

You can be a fascist party without the country itself being fascist... The Nazi party was fascist before they took control.

And we don't need to pay attention to the random voters you find online. We just need to look at the politicians. You don't see republicans lining up to prosecute the coup attempters. You see them defending them. MTG cries about Jewish space lasers burning down rainforests and the republicans protect her. People who object (like Liz Cheney) get kicked out. The republican party is fascist and is only getting more fascist. And anyone who doesn't mind their actions I will call fascist as well.

Quote
“Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.


That word is "Nazi." Nobody cares about their motives anymore.”

― A.R. Moxon
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 08:36:21 am by Micro102 »
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Frumple

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47465 on: January 31, 2022, 08:24:55 am »

Fascism requires totalitarianism. Without totalitarianism, it is simply conservatism. Never once has the USA been totalitarian.
That doesn't mean the GOP isn't trying to make it so. There was literally a putsch attempt last year. They're actively trying to put in legislature that lets them overturn elections at will, right now. Somewhere between a large minority to straight supermajority of their party, depending on the exact issue, has been willing to say they're okay with this.

Most of the actual moderate republicans have left the party -- what remains is near to entirely okay with turning the US into a one party dictatorship, and attempts by their affiliated politicians to do just that have not turned them away hard enough to stop them from supporting the party at the poll booth and beyond. The GOP is a bloody long way from just being conservative.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47466 on: January 31, 2022, 08:39:04 am »

Fascism requires totalitarianism. Without totalitarianism, it is simply conservatism. Never once has the USA been totalitarian.

And anyways most of what you brought up only pertains to the most extreme wing of the Republicans, the worst of the worst. Most of the moderate ones I met online were... fine.

You can be a fascist party without the country itself being fascist... The Nazi party was fascist before they took control.

And we don't need to pay attention to the random voters you find online. We just need to look at the politicians. You don't see republicans lining up to prosecute the coup attempters. You see them defending them. MTG cries about Jewish space lasers burning down rainforests and the republicans protect her. People who object (like Liz Cheney) get kicked out. The republican party is fascist and is only getting more fascist. And anyone who doesn't mind their actions I will call fascist as well.

Quote
"Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not bc they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values...or convenience, or ignorance, or greed. That word is Nazi."

-JuliusGoat
The politicians you are talking about are a minority even within the party. And the thing is, they were in control several times before Trump even. Nothing happened. From my fairly unbiased point of view, this seems like alarmism. Nothing I have seen so far has indicated to me that the Republicans want totalitarianism. I am open to changing my opinion if you can simply provide me with proof aside from one or two isolated incidents and loony politicians of which there are many present on both sides.

Fascism requires totalitarianism. Without totalitarianism, it is simply conservatism. Never once has the USA been totalitarian.
That doesn't mean the GOP isn't trying to make it so. There was literally a putsch attempt last year. They're actively trying to put in legislature that lets them overturn elections at will, right now. Somewhere between a large minority to straight supermajority of their party, depending on the exact issue, has been willing to say they're okay with this.
I have never heard of this, and I can't find any information about it from a quick search.

Fascism requires totalitarianism. Without totalitarianism, it is simply conservatism. Never once has the USA been totalitarian.
Most of the actual moderate republicans have left the party -- what remains is near to entirely okay with turning the US into a one party dictatorship, and attempts by their affiliated politicians to do just that have not turned them away hard enough to stop them from supporting the party at the poll booth and beyond. The GOP is a bloody long way from just being conservative.
Again, that is wrong. I have seen absolutely nothing pointing to that aside from claims by some people in this thread. I don't believe you, sorry.

To clarify, what I really take issue with is blanketing all Republicans as fascists and denying that moderates exist. They are still disagreeable to me, I just value the truth as I see it.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 08:46:09 am by MaxTheFox »
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47467 on: January 31, 2022, 08:47:01 am »

I have never heard of this, and I can't find any information about it from a quick search

I can't believe you missed the whole storming the capitol thing, which was very much alike the Munich Putsch.

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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47468 on: January 31, 2022, 08:56:06 am »

To clarify, what I really take issue with is blanketing all Republicans as fascists and denying that moderates exist.
I'm not sure that was said (or  at least meant), which is why I backed off once I realised you seemed to be on that road of argument. But others can do their oen speaking for themselves.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47469 on: January 31, 2022, 08:57:25 am »

I have never heard of this, and I can't find any information about it from a quick search

I can't believe you missed the whole storming the capitol thing, which was very much alike the Munich Putsch.
I meant the legislation. Of course I heard about the storming attempt lmfao. A bunch of crazed alt-righters do not the whole party make.

To clarify, what I really take issue with is blanketing all Republicans as fascists and denying that moderates exist.
I'm not sure that was said (or  at least meant), which is why I backed off once I realised you seemed to be on that road of argument. But others can do their oen speaking for themselves.
If it wasn't, then I'll back off too because then I have nothing to argue against.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 09:01:09 am by MaxTheFox »
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Starver

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47470 on: January 31, 2022, 09:02:01 am »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_efforts_to_restrict_voting_following_the_2020_presidential_election

Might or might not include what was meant. You might or might not prefer a news-site version instead.
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47471 on: January 31, 2022, 09:04:52 am »

I meant the legislation. Of course I heard about the storming attempt lmfao. A bunch of crazed alt-righters do not the whole party make.
I never said the whole republican party was made out of alt-righters.
What is worrisome though is that the Rebulicans (the politicians I mean, not the entire voter base, there's plenty of moderates amongst those) as a whole keep defending the capitol stormers. The few that didn't left the party.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47472 on: January 31, 2022, 09:20:19 am »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_efforts_to_restrict_voting_following_the_2020_presidential_election

Might or might not include what was meant. You might or might not prefer a news-site version instead.
Sure. There were indeed cases of suppression. But not in all states, or even most. Most of those measures aren't at all restrictive for legitimate voters from a quick skim of the article.

I meant the legislation. Of course I heard about the storming attempt lmfao. A bunch of crazed alt-righters do not the whole party make.
I never said the whole republican party was made out of alt-righters.
What is worrisome though is that the Rebulicans (the politicians I mean, not the entire voter base, there's plenty of moderates amongst those) as a whole keep defending the capitol stormers. The few that didn't left the party.
I never denied that. In addition, it isn't even all of their politicians. Crenshaw, for example, though I disagree with him majorly, did condemn the stormers.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 09:23:51 am by MaxTheFox »
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martinuzz

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47473 on: January 31, 2022, 09:45:22 am »

The underlying problem in the US (and most of the Western world), is that somewhere during the Reagan / Thatcher years, it was decided firmly that society should walk the road to inequality, shattering what was left of the American Dream and turning it into a nightmare.
Since then it doesn't really matter anymore whether to vote Republican or Democrat. It's choosing between different flavours of the same pile of rot.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 10:48:42 am by martinuzz »
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MaxTheFox

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Re: AmeriPol thread
« Reply #47474 on: January 31, 2022, 10:45:50 am »

The underlying problem in the US (and most of the Western world), is that somewhere during the Reagan / Thatcher years, it was decided firmly that society should walk the road to inquality, shattering what was left of the American Dream and turning it into a nightmare.
Since then it doesn't really matter anymore whether to vote Republican or Democrat. It's choosing between different flavours of the same pile of rot.
Indeed. At least it isn't Russia. We're just worse.
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