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[Rolan7]

It's not a perfect test.  Some of the most human people I know would be upset when asked about their mother.

Also here's that Dirk/Hal conversation I mentioned elsewhere.  The context is that one of the characters is a programmer who made an AI version of himself to serve as an "auto-responder" for chat messages, years earlier.  Tensions have risen.  (Possibly the AI is somehow less gay, more bi?  I don't think that comes up in the video, but it just occurred to me as a way it might have been influenced by its machine-state)

It's pure sci-fi obviously, but like any good sci-fi it raises questions about what might be possible in the future.

[McTraveller]

It's not a perfect test.  Some of the most human people I know would be upset when asked about their mother.

Was this in response to the theory of mind?

Theory of mind is the fact that humans have an understanding that different people have independent minds.  Even with the "smart" other animals like gorillas and dolphins and parrots and things that can be taught to "talk", that exhibit problem solving, etc: to date every test attempted to evaluate their theory of mind is negative.  Apparently also this is something that develops around 5 years of age in humans.

It's why gorillas can sign and let you know what they want or how they are feeling, but they have never been observed to ask what you want or how you are feeling.

A simple test is:  show a kid a picture of two people (say, Alice and Bob), a box, a basket, and a cookie.  Show the kid that Alice puts the cookie in the box, then leaves.  While Alice is gone, Bob moves the cookie to the basket.  Have Alice come back, and ask "where does Alice look for the cookie?"  Without theory of mind, Alice looks in the basket.  She doesn't have independent knowledge - she knows what the kids know.  With theory of mind - the kid will say Alice still looks in the box, because she has no other knowledge: it's a realization that there is independent mind.

That recognition of "other mind" is, so far, the most distinguishing characteristic of humans: above emotion, above problem solving, above communication.

[Naturegirl1999]

Humans aren’t the only animals with theory of mind. Squirrels have it too, they hide their stashes from other squirrels because they know that other animals don;t share their interests

[Eschar]

Humans aren’t the only animals with theory of mind. Squirrels have it too, they hide their stashes from other squirrels because they know that other animals don;t share their interests

Crows too. Crows are smart. Or was it Ravens?

[Naturegirl1999]

Humans aren’t the only animals with theory of mind. Squirrels have it too, they hide their stashes from other squirrels because they know that other animals don;t share their interests

Crows too. Crows are smart. Or was it Ravens?

i think Corvids in general

[McTraveller]

You don't need a theory of mind to recognize the "if I don't hide this it will disappear" pattern.

[Naturegirl1999]

You don't need a theory of mind to recognize the "if I don't hide this it will disappear" pattern.

You still need one to know that others will steal your stuff, that no one thinks the same way you do

[McTraveller]

I didn't think theory of mind was that difficult a concept - but apparently it is... 

Put another way:  Knowing that some entity is going to take your stuff does not require you to think that other entity has a mind.

[Naturegirl1999]

I didn't think theory of mind was that difficult a concept - but apparently it is... 

Put another way:  Knowing that some entity is going to take your stuff does not require you to think that other entity has a mind.

making fake stashes to trick them so they can’t find your actual stash would require you to think that the entity you’re tricking has a mind, how can you attempt to co fuse the thinking of an entity when you don’t think the entity can think?

[McTraveller]

You can make a program that just does a data fit that finds a local optima on that data to hide the stash.

That curve fit program has no concept of the other entities having minds: it just knows that to increase the probability of having a stash not stolen, it needs to be "hidden."  QED, you don't need a theory of mind to know that hiding your food is an optimum strategy.

That is - hiding food isn't evidence of theory of mind.  You are correct that this doesn't mean corvids don't have theory of mind, but you'd have to find something else to demonstrate it.

(stealth spelling fix)

[scriver]

Humans aren’t the only animals with theory of mind. Squirrels have it too, they hide their stashes from other squirrels because they know that other animals don;t share their interests

Crows too. Crows are smart. Or was it Ravens?

i think Corvids in general

No the virus is not that smart

[Naturegirl1999]

Humans aren’t the only animals with theory of mind. Squirrels have it too, they hide their stashes from other squirrels because they know that other animals don;t share their interests

Crows too. Crows are smart. Or was it Ravens?

i think Corvids in general

Corvids the birds, includes crows, ravens, jays
No the virus is not that smart

[Eschar]

Humans aren’t the only animals with theory of mind. Squirrels have it too, they hide their stashes from other squirrels because they know that other animals don;t share their interests

Crows too. Crows are smart. Or was it Ravens?

i think Corvids in general

No the virus is not that smart

I don't know how you meant this but it made me smile

[thompson]

I think it’s a reasonably safe bet that plenty of other animals have some concept of other minds. The reason it hasn’t been observed conclusively is likely that no one has been able to find the right experiment to prove it. Or, rather, no one really agrees on what “proof” would be.

[scriver]

I don't know how you meant this but it made me smile

Just another "covid sounds like corvid" joke