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Author Topic: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0  (Read 19371 times)

EuchreJack

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #135 on: March 17, 2023, 09:55:28 am »

Or, hear me out, what if the US declared this an attack on US drones, meaning that US Drones, and Drones alone, could retaliate? Maybe with "Property of Ukraine" stamped on them?
For the Drones!

Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #136 on: March 17, 2023, 10:31:58 am »

The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued an arrest warrant for Russian President Vladimir Putin.


Khm... *goes into the Russian segment of the internet to enjoy explosions*
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brewer bob

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #137 on: March 17, 2023, 10:35:41 am »

I was just about to come and post this. :D

While I don't believe Putin will be arrested (surprise, surprise), this news made me smile.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #138 on: March 17, 2023, 12:27:13 pm »

Russia's answer is probably something along the lines of "can't steal children from a country that doesn't exist" but is another point in the continued "North Korea"-ification of Russia at least...
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #139 on: March 17, 2023, 05:20:31 pm »

I'm going to level with you, this seems like a bad thing for the West.
One of Russia's (and China's) core diplomatic goals is exposing the edifice of international law as a paper-tiger sham that only functions as a coercive implement for the US and its allies to threaten countries that aren't playing along, and the problem for the West is that... well, it kind of is. When the ICC makes a pronouncement like this, Russia predictably blows it off, and nothing happens, other nations, particularly in the global south, are watching.

The next time some African country splits down the middle in a civil war, do the rebels want more to be recognized by the UN, or by Russia? Russia wants them to be looking at Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistria, and asking themselves which has worked better. Similarly, when Western institutions of international law overreach and make fools of themselves, it reminds all these little countries that international courts can only hurt you if you believe in them.

You can talk about "North-Korea-ification" of Russia, but this is what "North-Korea-ification" really looks like:

and you can probably count Saudi Arabia in some time soon too, based on recent news.

It's very possible that we are watching the end of international law as a concept.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #140 on: March 17, 2023, 08:46:53 pm »

This war has already started with Putin doing his level best to flaunt the fact that international consequences are for non-nuclear countries. Problem is, well...what's the alternative? The ICC can either ignore blatant war crimes and send the message that genocide is okay, or do what little they can and send the message that genocide is not okay, but nothing useful can be done about it. Nether action results in anything getting done in practice, but does the former really sound better than the latter to you? People do what little they can, because the alternative is to do nothing.

Spoiler: tangent (click to show/hide)
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hector13

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #141 on: March 17, 2023, 09:55:49 pm »

I meanÖ the US doesnít acknowledge the authority of the ICC either, so I donít think itís as big a deal as MaxSpin makes out.
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brewer bob

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #142 on: March 17, 2023, 10:06:59 pm »

Also, there's quite a number of countries from the global south who are parties of the Rome Statute:

Quote from: ICC
123 countries are States Parties to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. Out of them 33 are African States, 19 are Asia-Pacific States, 18 are from Eastern Europe, 28 are from Latin American and Caribbean States, and 25 are from Western European and other States.

Edit. Though this of course doesn't mean that parties can't just ignore the warrant and that it may reinforce thoughts that the ICC is biased.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 10:18:02 pm by brewer bob »
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #143 on: March 17, 2023, 10:41:40 pm »

Quote
It's very possible that we are watching the end of international law as a concept.

Good riddance then. Imitation of international law does no good, countries being aware that they need to build up their military to defend themselves is better than a false sense of security. 
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #144 on: March 18, 2023, 01:16:55 am »

Also, one thing people tend to ignore: Russia is nowhere close to being a great power anymore. The only aspect of being a great power that Russia still possesses - an ability to turn world into the nuclear wasteland.

Everything else (economic might, military might, cultural and ideological influence, alliances, demographics, etc) is nowhere close to this status.

So I doubt that countries of the Global South will be very interested in choosing Russia over the USA like it often was the case with the USSR. China is a much better choice if the West is not an option.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #145 on: March 18, 2023, 01:52:46 am »

So I doubt that countries of the Global South will be very interested in choosing Russia over the USA like it often was the case with the USSR. China is a much better choice if the West is not an option.
Those are the same choice, though.

I'm definitely not under the illusion that Russia is a great power. It's a junior partner on Team China, which is why I explicitly referenced China in that what Russia wants is really what China wants.

The point about "looking to Russia vs. the UN for recognition", though, is that that's very much the position Russia wants to be in, and as long as it continues implicitly to have China's backing, it can be.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #146 on: March 18, 2023, 02:11:00 am »

I am not sure that Russia is willing to play the role of a junior partner, it has too many ambitions for that. It is like China never liked the role of the USSR's junior partner.

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Maximum Spin

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #147 on: March 18, 2023, 02:12:24 am »

I am not sure that Russia is willing to play the role of a junior partner, it has too many ambitions for that. It is like China never liked the role of the USSR's junior partner.
I don't think it is but I don't see how it has a choice.

I meanÖ the US doesnít acknowledge the authority of the ICC either, so I donít think itís as big a deal as MaxSpin makes out.
Don't you think that's part of the problem, though? To be sure, the ICC is just one institution that Russia and China want to discredit, and not by any stretch the most important, but the fact that its credit is already so low makes it an especially weak link. The way the US just ignores it while everyone else is expected to care what it says is exactly the point they'd make.

But maybe I didn't convey well enough that the ICC itself isn't really the big deal, it's just a small pebble in the avalanche. I don't think it's directly causing the end of international law as a concept. I think it's just an example of that ongoing process.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2023, 02:27:57 am by Maximum Spin »
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #148 on: March 18, 2023, 04:47:20 am »

It's the thought that counts, basically.
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KittyTac

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #149 on: March 18, 2023, 06:37:09 am »

We are the Fascist Italy to China's Nazi Germany. And Ukraine is Greece. And Georgia is Ethiopia...

"Russian warship, go fuck yourself" = "No"
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